964 Prices all over the map
10-20-2010, 04:30 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
964 Prices all over the map
I'm thinking of selling my 964, simply because it sits in the garage most of the time: I just don't drive it very much, and spend most of my time tinkering with and driving my 914.
It's a '91 model with 91,000 miles, Tiptronic, Guards Red. Fully functional, nice paint, G-pipe, perf. chip etc. etc.. There are no flaws, but I wouldn't call it exceptional in any way. The trouble is, I have no idea where to sell it or what to ask for it. I've sold a couple of cars on Ebay before, but nothing as valuable as this 911 - will I get a bunch of timewasters or winning bidders who wont pay?
I've been watching Ebay prices for a while for 964 '91 models and looking at the thread here on 964 sales, and the prices are all over the place: ranging from $13k up to more than $20k for what appear to be very similar in condition cars. The prices in the last Excellence magazine coverage are considerably higher, which I don't understand.
Is this a bad time to be selling? Would I be better waiting until Spring 2011? (I'm in no particular hurry.)
Thanks for any comments.
It's a '91 model with 91,000 miles, Tiptronic, Guards Red. Fully functional, nice paint, G-pipe, perf. chip etc. etc.. There are no flaws, but I wouldn't call it exceptional in any way. The trouble is, I have no idea where to sell it or what to ask for it. I've sold a couple of cars on Ebay before, but nothing as valuable as this 911 - will I get a bunch of timewasters or winning bidders who wont pay?
I've been watching Ebay prices for a while for 964 '91 models and looking at the thread here on 964 sales, and the prices are all over the place: ranging from $13k up to more than $20k for what appear to be very similar in condition cars. The prices in the last Excellence magazine coverage are considerably higher, which I don't understand.
Is this a bad time to be selling? Would I be better waiting until Spring 2011? (I'm in no particular hurry.)
Thanks for any comments.
10-20-2010, 04:38 PM
#2
I have been watching too.
Seems like most of the 964 are high teens low tewnties.
The really cheap ones below 15k or so seem to have significant problems.
And on the other end the real low mile cars are all the money high tewnties low thirties, which I think you could sell a decent coupe that doesn't need a lot of work. $19-25K +/-.
And there are a handfull of cabs that have just sat around forever.
The coupes get ****** up right away in the same same money ranges.
A cab or Targa will probably have more action on it in the spring.
A couple is more of an anytime car.
Seems like most of the 964 are high teens low tewnties.
The really cheap ones below 15k or so seem to have significant problems.
And on the other end the real low mile cars are all the money high tewnties low thirties, which I think you could sell a decent coupe that doesn't need a lot of work. $19-25K +/-.
And there are a handfull of cabs that have just sat around forever.
The coupes get ****** up right away in the same same money ranges.
A cab or Targa will probably have more action on it in the spring.
A couple is more of an anytime car.
10-20-2010, 04:51 PM
#3
Racer
Thread Starter
I have been watching too.
Seems like most of the 964 are high teens low tewnties.
The really cheap ones below 15k or so seem to have significant problems.
And on the other end the real low mile cars are all the money high tewnties low thirties, which I think you could sell a decent coupe that doesn't need a lot of work. $19-25K +/-.
And there are a handfull of cabs that have just sat around forever.
The coupes get ****** up right away in the same same money ranges.
A cab or Targa will probably have more action on it in the spring.
A couple is more of an anytime car.
Seems like most of the 964 are high teens low tewnties.
The really cheap ones below 15k or so seem to have significant problems.
And on the other end the real low mile cars are all the money high tewnties low thirties, which I think you could sell a decent coupe that doesn't need a lot of work. $19-25K +/-.
And there are a handfull of cabs that have just sat around forever.
The coupes get ****** up right away in the same same money ranges.
A cab or Targa will probably have more action on it in the spring.
A couple is more of an anytime car.
The Tiptronic is an interesting variable: people like me want the Tip because driving in heavy traffic is bearable with it, there's always the manual position for fun, and an extra second off 0-60 is of academic interest only. On the other hand, I think the (not heavy) majority of buyers prefer the manual because they feel it is a purer Porsche experience and may want to track the car etc..
The other consideration is that if you have a significant other who wants to drive the car but doesn't know how to use a manual, the Tip is a necessity. Overall, perhaps the Tip doesn't affect the value, given the marketplace?
Another impression I have is that the colour makes a difference. It seems that the more unusual the colour, the higher the price.
10-20-2010, 07:02 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
I've always liked tracking the price trends, out of basically idle curiosity.
After being depressingly low say, a year ago, it seems like they are trending upward again for "quality" pieces.
You are perilously close to throwing your car out there for game of "Rennlist Price-Setting Futbol"
Ok, I'll go first
:
Nice shape (no accidents?) and everything works (services up to date, I assume?). Major plus points if so.
Miles are under the psychological barrier of 100K, which is good. Someone might actually be able to get a loan on it, if they were so inclined.
Coupe is good.
You can spend all day trying to tell somebody how good a Tip is.
If they don't want it, they won't consider it, and most won't. You will take a hit for that.
You're in Cali, right? I wouldn't worry too much about the time of year.
It seems like money is out there, looking for good solid cars.
If you decide to do it, I'd put it out there *almost* everywhere (Autotrader, cars.com, CL, etc., etc.). But I have reservations about eBay.
I've bought and sold many cars for myself and family on eBay, but my observation is that it just ain't what it used to be. There were always the pigs in lipstick on there, but there also used to be a fair amount of good inventory on there. Now it just seems like a bizarro world of questionable cars, shady characters and broken promises.
I think you'd have to be really lucky to sell to a good buyer at a price you can live with there.
I'd put it out for $21K and see what happens. Just my $.02
After being depressingly low say, a year ago, it seems like they are trending upward again for "quality" pieces.
You are perilously close to throwing your car out there for game of "Rennlist Price-Setting Futbol"
Ok, I'll go first
:Nice shape (no accidents?) and everything works (services up to date, I assume?). Major plus points if so.
Miles are under the psychological barrier of 100K, which is good. Someone might actually be able to get a loan on it, if they were so inclined.
Coupe is good.
You can spend all day trying to tell somebody how good a Tip is.
If they don't want it, they won't consider it, and most won't. You will take a hit for that.
You're in Cali, right? I wouldn't worry too much about the time of year.
It seems like money is out there, looking for good solid cars.
If you decide to do it, I'd put it out there *almost* everywhere (Autotrader, cars.com, CL, etc., etc.). But I have reservations about eBay.
I've bought and sold many cars for myself and family on eBay, but my observation is that it just ain't what it used to be. There were always the pigs in lipstick on there, but there also used to be a fair amount of good inventory on there. Now it just seems like a bizarro world of questionable cars, shady characters and broken promises.
I think you'd have to be really lucky to sell to a good buyer at a price you can live with there.
I'd put it out for $21K and see what happens. Just my $.02
10-20-2010, 07:17 PM
#6
Racer
Thread Starter
Thanks, Barry ... excellent input. Yes, services are up to date, 90k service was done a couple of years ago, oil change and new pads all around last year. No accidents. I don't know if I've just been lucky, but I have had nothing go wrong of any significance since I owned it (TOUCH WOOD) - just dicky window switches, noisy CCU fan, perished door switch caps, window channel disengagement, that sort of thing. I suspect it could use some new engine mounts, and the A/C needs recharging with a can of Freeze12 once a year. I'd be delighted if it fetched $21k :-)
10-20-2010, 07:25 PM
#7
Yes they are, seem to be comming up. I feel I got a really good deal on mine and I have someone that wants one at the same kind deal, same kind of quality car, miles, history. I have looked for 3 months and the prices are going up.
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10-20-2010, 07:32 PM
#8
Thanks, Barry ... excellent input. Yes, services are up to date, 90k service was done a couple of years ago, oil change and new pads all around last year. No accidents. I don't know if I've just been lucky, but I have had nothing go wrong of any significance since I owned it (TOUCH WOOD) - just dicky window switches, noisy CCU fan, perished door switch caps, window channel disengagement, that sort of thing. I suspect it could use some new engine mounts, and the A/C needs recharging with a can of Freeze12 once a year. I'd be delighted if it fetched $21k :-)
Best I been able to find is an okay car for $17-$18 range.
Maybe I should have taken it but I have already had an offer on mine, which isn't even for sale for $20k, and a half dozen other peolpe ask me if it was for sale.
10-20-2010, 07:34 PM
#9
Three Wheelin'
Thanks, Barry ... excellent input. Yes, services are up to date, 90k service was done a couple of years ago, oil change and new pads all around last year. No accidents. I don't know if I've just been lucky, but I have had nothing go wrong of any significance since I owned it (TOUCH WOOD) - just dicky window switches, noisy CCU fan, perished door switch caps, window channel disengagement, that sort of thing. I suspect it could use some new engine mounts, and the A/C needs recharging with a can of Freeze12 once a year. I'd be delighted if it fetched $21k :-)
Yours sounds like it would be a great car for someone. And there are plenty of "someones" out there.
10-20-2010, 08:28 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Sadly, market is dead. I'm honest about what my RSA is, but still. Never had any serious interest from anyone but flippers, and those offers were south of $15K. (One "enthusiast" offered me $8k, and couldn't even get his *** over to Oakland from SF to actually look at the car. Yeah, I seriously considered that guy as a quality buyer..........)
10-20-2010, 08:39 PM
#11
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I looked for almost a year for a reasonably priced, solid 964. Here are my observaions:
1. Everyone is looking for a manual C2 coupe--and these command a premium. I would almost describe the market for these cars as hot, meaning you will probably be competing with other buyers and will have to act quickly (often without time for a proper PPI);
2. Cabs are MUCH harder to sell. It just seems these cars sit on the market forever. Targas are somewhere between cabs and coupes;
3. Tips are also much slower to sell. I've seen very nice tips sit on the market for weeks where a manual would have disappeared in days;
4. Color doesn't seem to matter much, except at the extremes. Meaning: cool unusual colors like cobalt blue help while any shade of green is the touch of death. Everything else (red, black, white, silver) seems to be a wash;
5. C4s are slower to move than C2s but there is a decent market for them unlike cabs.
6. All things being equal, '92 - '94 prices are higher than '89 - '91. Some of this is deserved and some just inexperienced or unknowledgable buyers not knowing what they are looking for.
I think these cars are at long last getting some respect. After years of being the 911 whipping boy, I think the prices of the 964 (rising) and 993 (declining) are converging. I have an example of every generation of air-cooled 911, and I enjoy driving my 964 more than any of the others. For me, at this stage in my life, it is the perfect balance of old and new. It is modern yet feels special in a way that the later cars for some reason just don't.
1. Everyone is looking for a manual C2 coupe--and these command a premium. I would almost describe the market for these cars as hot, meaning you will probably be competing with other buyers and will have to act quickly (often without time for a proper PPI);
2. Cabs are MUCH harder to sell. It just seems these cars sit on the market forever. Targas are somewhere between cabs and coupes;
3. Tips are also much slower to sell. I've seen very nice tips sit on the market for weeks where a manual would have disappeared in days;
4. Color doesn't seem to matter much, except at the extremes. Meaning: cool unusual colors like cobalt blue help while any shade of green is the touch of death. Everything else (red, black, white, silver) seems to be a wash;
5. C4s are slower to move than C2s but there is a decent market for them unlike cabs.
6. All things being equal, '92 - '94 prices are higher than '89 - '91. Some of this is deserved and some just inexperienced or unknowledgable buyers not knowing what they are looking for.
I think these cars are at long last getting some respect. After years of being the 911 whipping boy, I think the prices of the 964 (rising) and 993 (declining) are converging. I have an example of every generation of air-cooled 911, and I enjoy driving my 964 more than any of the others. For me, at this stage in my life, it is the perfect balance of old and new. It is modern yet feels special in a way that the later cars for some reason just don't.
10-20-2010, 11:05 PM
#12
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A few other things I want to add....
-European customers are snatching up a LOT of the C2 manual coupes too. There were quite a few I called/emailed on and was told, "A gentleman from Austria bought the car sight unseen." I'm not sure but I haven't heard the same thing regarding SC/3.2s with European customers...they seem to be really after the 964 and mainly the coupe/5speed (which I'm guessing they're turning into track cars).
-I also think interior color plays a roll in buyers decisions. I personally really wanted a black interior and was going to wait for one to come along. Yeah, I could have bought something different and switched it out later but that would be just another $2000+ expense.
-European customers are snatching up a LOT of the C2 manual coupes too. There were quite a few I called/emailed on and was told, "A gentleman from Austria bought the car sight unseen." I'm not sure but I haven't heard the same thing regarding SC/3.2s with European customers...they seem to be really after the 964 and mainly the coupe/5speed (which I'm guessing they're turning into track cars).
-I also think interior color plays a roll in buyers decisions. I personally really wanted a black interior and was going to wait for one to come along. Yeah, I could have bought something different and switched it out later but that would be just another $2000+ expense.
10-21-2010, 04:19 AM
#13
Drifting
A few observations, and a couple of questions from a newbie.
- The U.S. economy is still reeling from the Great Recession, so non-necessary 'toys' of all shapes and sizes have taken a hit, with bottom feeders seemingly the only ones with cash. (How many banks will loan money these days for a 20 year old car?) Case in point: The market value of my uncle's boat has taken a 25-30% hit in the last 3 years. It has been dry docked the whole time with no add'l hours.
- In the (US) Northeast, the best time to buy any brand cabrio is mid October/November, before Thanksgiving, a wholesaler friend of mine advised. Just as soon as it's too cold to drive with the top down but before the spirit of Christmas kicks in. Because of this, I rushed into my purchase being totally clueless about the DMF and lack of head gasket on my specific 964. My engine number is ~ 200 below the cutover. I suspect the '92+ hold more value not only because they are a couple of years newer, but also because you can be sure the Luk DMF and head gasket are in place. When I was looking there was slim pickings, and the one I bought was 20 miles away. I could not have swung traveling around the country looking at cars, nor would I feel comfortable buying online.
Seeing that the Cab and C4 costed more both to make and buy, why are they worth less than a C2 coupe? I just don't get it. Is it a lack of structural integrity (flex) that is inherent to all cabrios?
Is the C4 AWD system considered too complicated or crude?
Does every gear head have the need to be able to bleed their own brakes?
Ever since my old Audi 4000 Quattro, I have been hooked on AWD. The family truckster is a Subaru Forester. (AWD, boxer engine, see a pattern?) Even if you don't plan on driving in poor weather it sticks in your mind as a Yankee.
NY's Saw Mill River Parkway in the rain at night anyone?
In the N.E. a Cabrio is a three season car at best. I would have assumed the Cab would be in HUGE demand in Calif. and the south. wrong. WRONG!
I paid $24.5K for my 964 with 33.5K original miles. except for a 6CD changer and Alpine radio, 100% stock. Actually a little too stock as I since learned. (see rant at bottom) Did I overpay? Apparently; but again buying non-local wasn't an option for me. The P.O. is the CEO of a local company. He made it clear, he didn't need to sell, he wasn't really trying to sell, and the price was firm. His lack of motivation made me think, he's not sweating and probably hopes I don't buy it, but he is at least going thru the motions to make the wife happy. So my advice to you Julian is to make it clear you are under no deadline to sell, and are not going to until you get your price. To quote the movie "Swingers" --> "Act like you don't need the sh*t, then they give you the sh*t for free"
Side note / rant. The car was sold to the P.O. "certified" by the local Porsche dealer. This gave me some peace of mind until I realized that a 964 can be sold "certified"
-without the toolkit
-without the tire air compressor
-without the Distributor Vent Kit
-without the new ballast resistors
- The U.S. economy is still reeling from the Great Recession, so non-necessary 'toys' of all shapes and sizes have taken a hit, with bottom feeders seemingly the only ones with cash. (How many banks will loan money these days for a 20 year old car?) Case in point: The market value of my uncle's boat has taken a 25-30% hit in the last 3 years. It has been dry docked the whole time with no add'l hours.
- In the (US) Northeast, the best time to buy any brand cabrio is mid October/November, before Thanksgiving, a wholesaler friend of mine advised. Just as soon as it's too cold to drive with the top down but before the spirit of Christmas kicks in. Because of this, I rushed into my purchase being totally clueless about the DMF and lack of head gasket on my specific 964. My engine number is ~ 200 below the cutover. I suspect the '92+ hold more value not only because they are a couple of years newer, but also because you can be sure the Luk DMF and head gasket are in place. When I was looking there was slim pickings, and the one I bought was 20 miles away. I could not have swung traveling around the country looking at cars, nor would I feel comfortable buying online.
Seeing that the Cab and C4 costed more both to make and buy, why are they worth less than a C2 coupe? I just don't get it. Is it a lack of structural integrity (flex) that is inherent to all cabrios?
Is the C4 AWD system considered too complicated or crude?
Does every gear head have the need to be able to bleed their own brakes?
Ever since my old Audi 4000 Quattro, I have been hooked on AWD. The family truckster is a Subaru Forester. (AWD, boxer engine, see a pattern?) Even if you don't plan on driving in poor weather it sticks in your mind as a Yankee.
NY's Saw Mill River Parkway in the rain at night anyone?
In the N.E. a Cabrio is a three season car at best. I would have assumed the Cab would be in HUGE demand in Calif. and the south. wrong. WRONG!
I paid $24.5K for my 964 with 33.5K original miles. except for a 6CD changer and Alpine radio, 100% stock. Actually a little too stock as I since learned. (see rant at bottom) Did I overpay? Apparently; but again buying non-local wasn't an option for me. The P.O. is the CEO of a local company. He made it clear, he didn't need to sell, he wasn't really trying to sell, and the price was firm. His lack of motivation made me think, he's not sweating and probably hopes I don't buy it, but he is at least going thru the motions to make the wife happy. So my advice to you Julian is to make it clear you are under no deadline to sell, and are not going to until you get your price. To quote the movie "Swingers" --> "Act like you don't need the sh*t, then they give you the sh*t for free"
Side note / rant. The car was sold to the P.O. "certified" by the local Porsche dealer. This gave me some peace of mind until I realized that a 964 can be sold "certified"
-without the toolkit
-without the tire air compressor
-without the Distributor Vent Kit
-without the new ballast resistors
10-21-2010, 12:47 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
Good comments.
I've never looked at the whole head-gasket-motor thing as being a huge deal. I guess it could be in some cases, but mine is pre-head-gasket, and it's just a little "weepy" at that joint. The valve covers are actually a little worse, and that can happen to any of them. I bought my '91 before I knew about the issue, but I wouldn't have rejected it solely because of that potential.
Ho-hum.
The AWD system in these cars is damn near bulletproof. I think the bias against cabs is sometimes performance-based, as they are slightly heavier and less rigid. The targas are a little less rigid as well. Most often I think it is just that people don't want the added complexity and maintenance, if they don't have a compelling reason to want a cab (top motors go bad, the framework can break, and a quality new top is a pretty penny).
ps
No, IMO, I don't think you overpaid for a low-mile, unmolested car in good upkeep. I think you did just fine.
There were never all that many of these things built to begin with, and there are fewer and fewer of these things around to choose from, especially with the Europeans siphoning them off.
I've never looked at the whole head-gasket-motor thing as being a huge deal. I guess it could be in some cases, but mine is pre-head-gasket, and it's just a little "weepy" at that joint. The valve covers are actually a little worse, and that can happen to any of them. I bought my '91 before I knew about the issue, but I wouldn't have rejected it solely because of that potential.
Ho-hum.
The AWD system in these cars is damn near bulletproof. I think the bias against cabs is sometimes performance-based, as they are slightly heavier and less rigid. The targas are a little less rigid as well. Most often I think it is just that people don't want the added complexity and maintenance, if they don't have a compelling reason to want a cab (top motors go bad, the framework can break, and a quality new top is a pretty penny).
ps
No, IMO, I don't think you overpaid for a low-mile, unmolested car in good upkeep. I think you did just fine.
There were never all that many of these things built to begin with, and there are fewer and fewer of these things around to choose from, especially with the Europeans siphoning them off.
10-21-2010, 02:38 PM
#15
Racer
Thread Starter
Mine is a pre-head-gasket too. I read about the "issue" before I bought, but came to the conclusion it was a fuss about nothing. So the car weeps a couple of drops per week into a tray on the garage floor: it's insignificant, and not like it's onto the living room carpet :-)
Thanks for all the input, chaps. I think what I will do is put an ad in a couple of places and see what happens.
Thanks for all the input, chaps. I think what I will do is put an ad in a couple of places and see what happens.