how bad is this PPI?
05-30-2013, 01:55 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
That sounds about right BigMike. You are putting in the money, time, and energy to get your car right, but with the solid design, you will get years of benefit after that early investment. Its what we have to put in for neglected maintenance cars to get them running optimally to the Rennlist standard.
05-30-2013, 02:02 PM
#47
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I am ready to put aside 2500 - 5000 for the first year or two, and it is recommended by pretty much everyone here. but a real good clean platform is hard to come by.
rust seems to be inevitable. should this be always considered as well for a potential car? out of all the posts i read, owners were usually not aware of the rust issue until they start working on the car.
rust seems to be inevitable. should this be always considered as well for a potential car? out of all the posts i read, owners were usually not aware of the rust issue until they start working on the car.
05-30-2013, 05:29 PM
#49
Burning Brakes
This statement is extremely FALSE. My car spent its life in NY and PA but was always garaged and put away each winter. 65k miles in 21 years says it all. I've been in, over, and under my car and there isn't the first spec of rust on it anywhere.
The only 964 cars that I've seen major rust issues with are those from the UK and other parts of Europe. I think that the elements there are tougher on these cars.
Find a car that wasn't a daily driver or that comes from the South and you won't have a rust issue.
The only 964 cars that I've seen major rust issues with are those from the UK and other parts of Europe. I think that the elements there are tougher on these cars.
Find a car that wasn't a daily driver or that comes from the South and you won't have a rust issue.
05-30-2013, 07:17 PM
#50
An average of $2K/year for maintenance and expendables is well within reason if you have work done by a shop.
These are 20+ year old cars now, and you can count on some long term wear items to work their way into the routine maintenance schedule. Tires will typically be every other year.
If you decide to start down the slippery slope of upgrades, all bets are off. Track use will naturally increase expendables and shorten service intervals.
Go in with your eyes open and you will not be disappointed by your ownership experience.
These are 20+ year old cars now, and you can count on some long term wear items to work their way into the routine maintenance schedule. Tires will typically be every other year.
If you decide to start down the slippery slope of upgrades, all bets are off. Track use will naturally increase expendables and shorten service intervals.
Go in with your eyes open and you will not be disappointed by your ownership experience.
05-30-2013, 09:27 PM
#51
Pass, 140k with those problems isn't worth it. Keep an eye out, there have been a few cars in the past few months with less miles in nicer condition around the same price. Just be prepared to act fast.
05-30-2013, 10:32 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
I've owned my '90 C2 for 12 years now. When I bought it it had 60K miles and was in average condition. It had no top end work done, the normal small oil leaks and rough paint on the front from too many gravel roads but other than that it was mechanically sound. I did have a Porsche dealer do a PPI but like yours, that did not include a compression or leakdown test.
In the first 5 years my major expenses were $2K of paint work done to freshen up the hood and fenders and repair some rust under the battery tray area (not rust-through like yours) and a $7K top end job (cost kept down by me pulling engine and doing teardown to long block). Other than that I just "drove it like I stole it" and couldn't get the smile off my face. So, add in other maintenance parts (I do all my own work other than body and engine internals) it was about $12K in 5 years.
Since then I have continued to repair or clean up anything that was less than perfect on the car and spent about $1K per year on average including brakes, oil change, tires, new suspension bits etc.
So total is about $19K in 12 years starting with something maybe a bit cleaner than your candidate.
My advice? I would say (like others) count on $8K-$10K for a top end in the near future, and since rust scares the pants off me, have someone take a very good look at what might be required to properly fix all the problems that are there. Once that is done, if you are pretty handy you can keep the car as clean as you want on your own. Otherwise, if the math doesn't add up for this one, keep looking for something that works better for you!
Cheers!
Jim
In the first 5 years my major expenses were $2K of paint work done to freshen up the hood and fenders and repair some rust under the battery tray area (not rust-through like yours) and a $7K top end job (cost kept down by me pulling engine and doing teardown to long block). Other than that I just "drove it like I stole it" and couldn't get the smile off my face. So, add in other maintenance parts (I do all my own work other than body and engine internals) it was about $12K in 5 years.
Since then I have continued to repair or clean up anything that was less than perfect on the car and spent about $1K per year on average including brakes, oil change, tires, new suspension bits etc.
So total is about $19K in 12 years starting with something maybe a bit cleaner than your candidate.
My advice? I would say (like others) count on $8K-$10K for a top end in the near future, and since rust scares the pants off me, have someone take a very good look at what might be required to properly fix all the problems that are there. Once that is done, if you are pretty handy you can keep the car as clean as you want on your own. Otherwise, if the math doesn't add up for this one, keep looking for something that works better for you!
Cheers!
Jim
05-30-2013, 11:25 PM
#53
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Jim,
How many miles on your car now? when did you do your top end rebuild? Have you been happy with how your engine perform since the rebuild?
I got a quote from one of the best local porsche body shops. Fix all three area would cost me around $3000, rear window rust and fender rust will require repaint of roof and fender. that's with cutting and welding.
How many miles on your car now? when did you do your top end rebuild? Have you been happy with how your engine perform since the rebuild?
I got a quote from one of the best local porsche body shops. Fix all three area would cost me around $3000, rear window rust and fender rust will require repaint of roof and fender. that's with cutting and welding.
05-31-2013, 12:02 AM
#54
Big thanks to everyone who has shared their "cost of ownership" story so far. Looking forward to reading more to get a better idea of what I'm in for.
05-31-2013, 02:28 AM
#55
Three Wheelin'
There are plenty of threads here, that detail the extent of rebuilds etc etc.
I think, musicmadmike's story is a good example. Search for him and check his story, if I remember correctly his engine blew and its just come out of a rebuild, but he's now gone way beyond that.
As I posted earlier, I've been through the search for a good well priced car. I searched in the states because the prices in Europe for LHD cars are high. I did not find anything below €24,000 (euros) that's something like $32,000. And many had well over 200,000 KMs or 120,000 miles on the clock.
In the end someone here tipped me off on a LHD car in the UK. Test drove it, checked out the service history etc and had a PPI done.
Now the PPI was thorough, maybe not as well detailed the first one I had done in the states, but I know this specialist well and trust them 100% (ok, 99%).
A deal was done.
I paid more than I really wanted to for it, but it has a solid base, Kw 3 suspension has been regularly maintained, but has what look like major oil leak issues, but these could be worse than they look or maybe not so bad.
Now I know what I have planned for the car. I know I'm in for some major expense as a full 3.8 rebuild is on the cards maybe even to the extent of Black Betty.
I know I'm going to paint the car, as it has to be perfect, but I'm not going to do it all in one go.
If you plan to buy a car and have to do little with it and just drive it, find a reputable dealer that is selling a car that is sorted and will ensure it is for you, but also plan on paying $35 to 40k for it.
I did find a car like this in the states. The guy was asking $40k, my conclusion was that its too good to strip down and heavily modify, it should stay standardish as it was such a nice original car.
This car might still be for sale, I can check through my emails and find out if anyone is interested.
I think, musicmadmike's story is a good example. Search for him and check his story, if I remember correctly his engine blew and its just come out of a rebuild, but he's now gone way beyond that.
As I posted earlier, I've been through the search for a good well priced car. I searched in the states because the prices in Europe for LHD cars are high. I did not find anything below €24,000 (euros) that's something like $32,000. And many had well over 200,000 KMs or 120,000 miles on the clock.
In the end someone here tipped me off on a LHD car in the UK. Test drove it, checked out the service history etc and had a PPI done.
Now the PPI was thorough, maybe not as well detailed the first one I had done in the states, but I know this specialist well and trust them 100% (ok, 99%).
A deal was done.
I paid more than I really wanted to for it, but it has a solid base, Kw 3 suspension has been regularly maintained, but has what look like major oil leak issues, but these could be worse than they look or maybe not so bad.
Now I know what I have planned for the car. I know I'm in for some major expense as a full 3.8 rebuild is on the cards maybe even to the extent of Black Betty.
I know I'm going to paint the car, as it has to be perfect, but I'm not going to do it all in one go.
If you plan to buy a car and have to do little with it and just drive it, find a reputable dealer that is selling a car that is sorted and will ensure it is for you, but also plan on paying $35 to 40k for it.
I did find a car like this in the states. The guy was asking $40k, my conclusion was that its too good to strip down and heavily modify, it should stay standardish as it was such a nice original car.
This car might still be for sale, I can check through my emails and find out if anyone is interested.
05-31-2013, 02:58 AM
#56
Rennlist Member
$35 to $40k, Stuart, that range seems really high to me. I think the Holt cars run that much but I am seeing more $19 to $25 on Craiglist searches.
05-31-2013, 03:59 AM
#57
Three Wheelin'
Ricardo, yes Holt is the kind of dealer I'm referring to. In the UK, it would be JZM, Malton etc etc.
Even at those prices, there's still no real guarantee is there.
I guess you've just got to get lucky, and if you're not impatient, something will turn up that fit each of our personal criteria.
My point is, keep searching until you are happy with what you've found, but, you might never find it.
If we stood all our cars next to each other in a parking lot, examined each and everyone of them, tallied up what each of us has spent on the car and the costs to get them there, I wonder what the conclusion we would come to then.
We all have different opinions, expectations and budgets at the end of the day! I wonder if the 2 cars I had PPI'd are sold now and if so how much did they sell for. I made offers on both of them, which were obviously declined.
In my opinion the Amazon green car needed a minimum of $12k spent on it before I could even contemplate using it. Advertised price $28,500. They wanted $27k for it as it stood.
The white car was not so bad, but still need several thousand $ spent on it from before it was anywhere close to usable. Advertised price $27995, They wanted $26,500 and not a penny less.
Both cars were bog standard, no upgrades at all.
I agree, there are cheaper cars out there, on Craig's, Ebay etc etc, but often they are Tip's, C4's, but my search was for a C2, manual, harder to find of course.
I did look at a White C4 RHD in the UK. From the ad it look good. advertised at £19,995 (approx. $30 to 32k), sensible mileage etc and it was only 20 minutes from my office in London.
Originally, I had my sights set on a white car, so off I go, thinking, I can use a RHD car no problem and a C4 is perfectly acceptable.
When I saw it, I could not believe what a state it was in, I couldn't even bring my self to sit in it. Filthy in side, peeling paint, just generally horrible.
The trader selling it asked what I thought. I told him it was about £10k over priced, that would still make it an almost $16,000 dollar car, in need of a re spray, a full strip out and clean, and that would only be the start.
I dare say, someone has bought it or will do.
Even at those prices, there's still no real guarantee is there.
I guess you've just got to get lucky, and if you're not impatient, something will turn up that fit each of our personal criteria.
My point is, keep searching until you are happy with what you've found, but, you might never find it.
If we stood all our cars next to each other in a parking lot, examined each and everyone of them, tallied up what each of us has spent on the car and the costs to get them there, I wonder what the conclusion we would come to then.
We all have different opinions, expectations and budgets at the end of the day! I wonder if the 2 cars I had PPI'd are sold now and if so how much did they sell for. I made offers on both of them, which were obviously declined.
In my opinion the Amazon green car needed a minimum of $12k spent on it before I could even contemplate using it. Advertised price $28,500. They wanted $27k for it as it stood.
The white car was not so bad, but still need several thousand $ spent on it from before it was anywhere close to usable. Advertised price $27995, They wanted $26,500 and not a penny less.
Both cars were bog standard, no upgrades at all.
I agree, there are cheaper cars out there, on Craig's, Ebay etc etc, but often they are Tip's, C4's, but my search was for a C2, manual, harder to find of course.
I did look at a White C4 RHD in the UK. From the ad it look good. advertised at £19,995 (approx. $30 to 32k), sensible mileage etc and it was only 20 minutes from my office in London.
Originally, I had my sights set on a white car, so off I go, thinking, I can use a RHD car no problem and a C4 is perfectly acceptable.
When I saw it, I could not believe what a state it was in, I couldn't even bring my self to sit in it. Filthy in side, peeling paint, just generally horrible.
The trader selling it asked what I thought. I told him it was about £10k over priced, that would still make it an almost $16,000 dollar car, in need of a re spray, a full strip out and clean, and that would only be the start.
I dare say, someone has bought it or will do.
05-31-2013, 03:36 PM
#58
Rennlist Member
911ren20,
My C2 has 125K miles now, and the top end was done at 80K miles. It has been a very strong/reliable car since I bought it and I was very happy with the top end job. The main reason I pulled the engine to do the top end was to resolve a number of oil leaks that were getting worse.
As it turned out, here were no serious problems found during the rebuild but highlights were some scoring on the cam lobes of cylinder 3 and some pitting in one of the heads near the exhaust valve. All of the oil leaks could probably have been fixed without doing the heads (the usual culprits at the oil pressure sensor and various oil line fittings) but having the new valves and cams and all of the proper new parts on the top end will probably keep me going strong to 200K miles.
BTW, the top end work was done by a well respected local mechanic. He is the senior mech at the local Porsche shop but he does work on the side on all the older air-cooled models (964/993 especially) and really knows how to get the most out of these engines.
As for the rust, like I said it scares me. The area under the battery is just from the battery vent leaking over the years. There is a raised metal plate welded to the tub under the battery and once the rust gets going under there it just eats through unless you catch it early. I had the same thing on mine but managed to stop it before there was any more than a couple of pinholes to weld up. In your case I would have a long conversation with the body man about how he would fix this because duplicating the battery support, battery hold down metalwork will be tricky. If you this and the rest of the repairs can be done in your budget and to your satisfaction, then OK. My personal inclination would be to keep looking for something without the rust issues, that way you will only be dealing with the mechanical issues and will be able to manage the costs better.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Cheers!
Jim
My C2 has 125K miles now, and the top end was done at 80K miles. It has been a very strong/reliable car since I bought it and I was very happy with the top end job. The main reason I pulled the engine to do the top end was to resolve a number of oil leaks that were getting worse.
As it turned out, here were no serious problems found during the rebuild but highlights were some scoring on the cam lobes of cylinder 3 and some pitting in one of the heads near the exhaust valve. All of the oil leaks could probably have been fixed without doing the heads (the usual culprits at the oil pressure sensor and various oil line fittings) but having the new valves and cams and all of the proper new parts on the top end will probably keep me going strong to 200K miles.
BTW, the top end work was done by a well respected local mechanic. He is the senior mech at the local Porsche shop but he does work on the side on all the older air-cooled models (964/993 especially) and really knows how to get the most out of these engines.
As for the rust, like I said it scares me. The area under the battery is just from the battery vent leaking over the years. There is a raised metal plate welded to the tub under the battery and once the rust gets going under there it just eats through unless you catch it early. I had the same thing on mine but managed to stop it before there was any more than a couple of pinholes to weld up. In your case I would have a long conversation with the body man about how he would fix this because duplicating the battery support, battery hold down metalwork will be tricky. If you this and the rest of the repairs can be done in your budget and to your satisfaction, then OK. My personal inclination would be to keep looking for something without the rust issues, that way you will only be dealing with the mechanical issues and will be able to manage the costs better.
Just my 2 cents worth.
Cheers!
Jim
05-31-2013, 05:21 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Jim, Thanks for your insight.
I have discussed the rust issue with the owner and the body shop (one of the best Porsche restoration shops in the area). The shop didn't worry about battery tray rust. Said it's a piece of cake to them because it's just obvious. However, they will have to investigate further with the spots on fender and rear window seal. They gave us a ballpark estimate, and the owner will factor it to the final price.
like others has said, this might be a good buy if the entry point is low.
with the rust repair and top end (assuming i am doing it anyway). I think we are talking about around 23K.
I have discussed the rust issue with the owner and the body shop (one of the best Porsche restoration shops in the area). The shop didn't worry about battery tray rust. Said it's a piece of cake to them because it's just obvious. However, they will have to investigate further with the spots on fender and rear window seal. They gave us a ballpark estimate, and the owner will factor it to the final price.
like others has said, this might be a good buy if the entry point is low.
with the rust repair and top end (assuming i am doing it anyway). I think we are talking about around 23K.
05-31-2013, 09:45 PM
#60
991ren - came across this great cost of ownership thread earlier today and figured I would share. I found it pretty encouraging, it seems that with proper maintenance the annual cost should be less than or equal to the maintenance + depreciation of the other options I have considered. Of course there will be the unlucky outliers, but this thread gave me the impression that maintenance is not all that unreasonable for the most part.
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...che-964-a.html
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...che-964-a.html