Singer on Jay Leno
12-28-2013, 01:36 PM
#91
Three Wheelin'
Suspension: Countless weeks at Sears Point working with Ohlins / Performance Shock engineers to design, fit, test, and tool accommodation for Ohlins TTX damper to a road car.
Gearbox: Brian Copans.. look him up.
Parameters: That's proprietary
Electrics: 18 months of development with Apex Racing and Motec engineers in order to develop a fully operable street car harness/PDMs that actually works consistently in all conditions. Just so happens its 20lbs lighter than standard, fully aerospace compliant, and will probably survive the apocalypse.
Brakes: Yes, in fact we did hire Brembo. Race Technologies / Brembo North America engineers worked to determine, fit, adjust, and test the spec. Here's a secret, they aren't standard 993tt calipers.
So we've covered the dampers, gearing, harness, and brakes. There are XX# other systems and items on the car that receive equal amounts of consideration and development.
Generally, I stay out of these types of discussion, but I'm feeling a bit adventurous this evening and one of our clients is participating.
At any rate, you are welcome to the shop (as are all of you) for a tour.
A visit will assure you that the price of our work is not reflective of profits or artistic endeavor.
-Maz
Gearbox: Brian Copans.. look him up.
Parameters: That's proprietary
Electrics: 18 months of development with Apex Racing and Motec engineers in order to develop a fully operable street car harness/PDMs that actually works consistently in all conditions. Just so happens its 20lbs lighter than standard, fully aerospace compliant, and will probably survive the apocalypse.
Brakes: Yes, in fact we did hire Brembo. Race Technologies / Brembo North America engineers worked to determine, fit, adjust, and test the spec. Here's a secret, they aren't standard 993tt calipers.
So we've covered the dampers, gearing, harness, and brakes. There are XX# other systems and items on the car that receive equal amounts of consideration and development.
Generally, I stay out of these types of discussion, but I'm feeling a bit adventurous this evening and one of our clients is participating.
At any rate, you are welcome to the shop (as are all of you) for a tour.
A visit will assure you that the price of our work is not reflective of profits or artistic endeavor.
-Maz
Thanks for the offer to see the shop, I will take you up on it next time I am out west
12-28-2013, 01:45 PM
#92
Three Wheelin'
I'm a Singer owner to be, my build starts this Spring 2014 and I've been tracking this company for a few years.
Harshness Disclaimer Applies:
There is nothing more dangerous in this world than people who express strong, confident opinions while having bad or no information to base them on. Which appears to be precisely the situation you are in. Your "opinion" should be disclaimed with "I'm just a tire kicker that doesn't know anything about these cars or restorations but here is what I think ..". That would then allow the appropriate level of filtering for readers.
The folks on this thread that believe they can build something similar from the parts bin have no idea what they are talking about and have obviously never seen or investigated the build process or components in the car. Again, cheap, uninformed opinions that thankfully come from folks that are not in the market for this product.
As a matter of fact, two of the Singer cars have been resold. The New York one most recently, for 200k over the original price. The other one was an earlier model and sold for 100k over.
There is currently a 2 year wait list for a build. The consequences of that are pretty obvious, including debunking your baseless statement that as a business their days are numbered.
In closing, there is a substantial list of buyers for this car because unlike every other tuner or home grown car, the Singer represents pure excellence both in build quality AND in driving experience. You can of course spend 1/2 the money or less and get something that looks somewhat similar from a distance, however as Michelangelo said, perfection is in the details, and the details will not be there when you look closely. So you could say you don't care about the details or don't value them, which is fine. Then again, you are probably the kind of person that has no issue buying a fake Patek Philippe with a chinese movement and feeling good about wearing it.
Harshness Disclaimer Applies:
There is nothing more dangerous in this world than people who express strong, confident opinions while having bad or no information to base them on. Which appears to be precisely the situation you are in. Your "opinion" should be disclaimed with "I'm just a tire kicker that doesn't know anything about these cars or restorations but here is what I think ..". That would then allow the appropriate level of filtering for readers.
The folks on this thread that believe they can build something similar from the parts bin have no idea what they are talking about and have obviously never seen or investigated the build process or components in the car. Again, cheap, uninformed opinions that thankfully come from folks that are not in the market for this product.
As a matter of fact, two of the Singer cars have been resold. The New York one most recently, for 200k over the original price. The other one was an earlier model and sold for 100k over.
There is currently a 2 year wait list for a build. The consequences of that are pretty obvious, including debunking your baseless statement that as a business their days are numbered.
In closing, there is a substantial list of buyers for this car because unlike every other tuner or home grown car, the Singer represents pure excellence both in build quality AND in driving experience. You can of course spend 1/2 the money or less and get something that looks somewhat similar from a distance, however as Michelangelo said, perfection is in the details, and the details will not be there when you look closely. So you could say you don't care about the details or don't value them, which is fine. Then again, you are probably the kind of person that has no issue buying a fake Patek Philippe with a chinese movement and feeling good about wearing it.
12-28-2013, 02:11 PM
#93
Pro
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta. CANADA
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Suspension: Countless weeks at Sears Point working with Ohlins / Performance Shock engineers to design, fit, test, and tool accommodation for Ohlins TTX damper to a road car.
Gearbox: Brian Copans.. look him up.
Parameters: That's proprietary
Electrics: 18 months of development with Apex Racing and Motec engineers in order to develop a fully operable street car harness/PDMs that actually works consistently in all conditions. Just so happens its 20lbs lighter than standard, fully aerospace compliant, and will probably survive the apocalypse.
Brakes: Yes, in fact we did hire Brembo. Race Technologies / Brembo North America engineers worked to determine, fit, adjust, and test the spec. Here's a secret, they aren't standard 993tt calipers.
So we've covered the dampers, gearing, harness, and brakes. There are XX# other systems and items on the car that receive equal amounts of consideration and development.
Generally, I stay out of these types of discussion, but I'm feeling a bit adventurous this evening and one of our clients is participating.
At any rate, you are welcome to the shop (as are all of you) for a tour.
A visit will assure you that the price of our work is not reflective of profits or artistic endeavor.
-Maz
Gearbox: Brian Copans.. look him up.
Parameters: That's proprietary
Electrics: 18 months of development with Apex Racing and Motec engineers in order to develop a fully operable street car harness/PDMs that actually works consistently in all conditions. Just so happens its 20lbs lighter than standard, fully aerospace compliant, and will probably survive the apocalypse.
Brakes: Yes, in fact we did hire Brembo. Race Technologies / Brembo North America engineers worked to determine, fit, adjust, and test the spec. Here's a secret, they aren't standard 993tt calipers.
So we've covered the dampers, gearing, harness, and brakes. There are XX# other systems and items on the car that receive equal amounts of consideration and development.
Generally, I stay out of these types of discussion, but I'm feeling a bit adventurous this evening and one of our clients is participating.
At any rate, you are welcome to the shop (as are all of you) for a tour.
A visit will assure you that the price of our work is not reflective of profits or artistic endeavor.
-Maz
I'm not trying to bash your business since I respect it, I'm trying to make a point and nothing else.
I believe that development of an existing system does not equal engineering (at least in the pure form), in example back in '87 I filled with foam the seat of my inherited AMC Eagle wagon and I remember going around the block until it felt good cause I wanted a cushy ride..
Anyway, I'm not here to preach or convince just to express my opinion.
Keep the Singer thing going, make sure it is the absolute top notch quality that Americans, Italians, Brits, Dutch and other Germans aspire to be... At the end I still believe that a 911 is the best car ever made.
12-28-2013, 02:19 PM
#94
Pro
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta. CANADA
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I think you've trying to say whats on the video:
Excerpt is here:
Art is not measured by the labour required to create it.
Art purchases are emotional, you're buying into en aesthetic, a creative vision that moves you.
And I agree, no matter how much one tries to rationalize the dollar amount its down to you feelings and emotions not in the labour and quality.
One thing is for sure:
With singer you know the quality is there, unlike a wine that can be expensive and turns out to be no better than a cheap one.
12-28-2013, 03:11 PM
#95
Nordschleife Master
Interesting regarding altering steering ratios. I figured the front track on a Singer is roughly equal to a wide body 964 and 964 Turbo.
I wonder if they are running the front subframes on the narrow or wide placement. I wonder if they are running narrow or wide rear trailing arms. I wonder why they kept the OEM power steering pump arrangement. I wonder if they're retaining the C2 vacuum brake booster or updating to a hydraulic brake booster ala Carrera RS and Carrera 4. I wonder if they're running a 964 master cylinder or upgraded to 993 master cylinder.
Hopefully P1CR stumbles into this thread again.
I wonder if they are running the front subframes on the narrow or wide placement. I wonder if they are running narrow or wide rear trailing arms. I wonder why they kept the OEM power steering pump arrangement. I wonder if they're retaining the C2 vacuum brake booster or updating to a hydraulic brake booster ala Carrera RS and Carrera 4. I wonder if they're running a 964 master cylinder or upgraded to 993 master cylinder.
Hopefully P1CR stumbles into this thread again.
Another question besides the ones above, what kind of service plan and warranty does a Singer 911 come with? It's effectively a brand new car in every imaginable way. How does Singer support maintenance and repairs on a Singer 911?
12-28-2013, 04:25 PM
#96
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Oct 2010
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Superquant....living the dream fella : ) & thanks for the link. Very exciting stuff you lucky chap!
Maz...thanks for the invite for a humble porsche freak, your very brave/mad inviting us lot....if I was not in the uk I'd be at your unit soon as!
12-28-2013, 08:44 PM
#98
Nordschleife Master
I think after the prototype car.
I remember years ago 9M saying they were one of the voices of reason regarding transitioning to the 964 platform because Singer started wanting to add features like ABS and power steering to the torsion bar platform and that wasn't gonna be easy.
I remember years ago 9M saying they were one of the voices of reason regarding transitioning to the 964 platform because Singer started wanting to add features like ABS and power steering to the torsion bar platform and that wasn't gonna be easy.
12-28-2013, 08:51 PM
#99
Rennlist Member
I'm a Singer owner to be, my build starts this Spring 2014 and I've been tracking this company for a few years.
Harshness Disclaimer Applies:
There is nothing more dangerous in this world than people who express strong, confident opinions while having bad or no information to base them on. Which appears to be precisely the situation you are in. Your "opinion" should be disclaimed with "I'm just a tire kicker that doesn't know anything about these cars or restorations but here is what I think ..". That would then allow the appropriate level of filtering for readers.
The folks on this thread that believe they can build something similar from the parts bin have no idea what they are talking about and have obviously never seen or investigated the build process or components in the car. Again, cheap, uninformed opinions that thankfully come from folks that are not in the market for this product.
As a matter of fact, two of the Singer cars have been resold. The New York one most recently, for 200k over the original price. The other one was an earlier model and sold for 100k over.
There is currently a 2 year wait list for a build. The consequences of that are pretty obvious, including debunking your baseless statement that as a business their days are numbered.
In closing, there is a substantial list of buyers for this car because unlike every other tuner or home grown car, the Singer represents pure excellence both in build quality AND in driving experience. You can of course spend 1/2 the money or less and get something that looks somewhat similar from a distance, however as Michelangelo said, perfection is in the details, and the details will not be there when you look closely. So you could say you don't care about the details or don't value them, which is fine. Then again, you are probably the kind of person that has no issue buying a fake Patek Philippe with a chinese movement and feeling good about wearing it.
Harshness Disclaimer Applies:
There is nothing more dangerous in this world than people who express strong, confident opinions while having bad or no information to base them on. Which appears to be precisely the situation you are in. Your "opinion" should be disclaimed with "I'm just a tire kicker that doesn't know anything about these cars or restorations but here is what I think ..". That would then allow the appropriate level of filtering for readers.
The folks on this thread that believe they can build something similar from the parts bin have no idea what they are talking about and have obviously never seen or investigated the build process or components in the car. Again, cheap, uninformed opinions that thankfully come from folks that are not in the market for this product.
As a matter of fact, two of the Singer cars have been resold. The New York one most recently, for 200k over the original price. The other one was an earlier model and sold for 100k over.
There is currently a 2 year wait list for a build. The consequences of that are pretty obvious, including debunking your baseless statement that as a business their days are numbered.
In closing, there is a substantial list of buyers for this car because unlike every other tuner or home grown car, the Singer represents pure excellence both in build quality AND in driving experience. You can of course spend 1/2 the money or less and get something that looks somewhat similar from a distance, however as Michelangelo said, perfection is in the details, and the details will not be there when you look closely. So you could say you don't care about the details or don't value them, which is fine. Then again, you are probably the kind of person that has no issue buying a fake Patek Philippe with a chinese movement and feeling good about wearing it.
12-29-2013, 12:59 AM
#101
Burning Brakes
Join Date: May 2010
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Out of interest what does the Cosworth engine cost to build and what is the power output?
Have to agree though you can build a seriously nice 964 in the UK with a beautiful engine build for £45-50k........why pay ten times that? Each to their own but it does amuse me when people take these discussions so personally.
Have to agree though you can build a seriously nice 964 in the UK with a beautiful engine build for £45-50k........why pay ten times that? Each to their own but it does amuse me when people take these discussions so personally.
12-29-2013, 01:18 AM
#102
Nordschleife Master
Folks that don't know our cars coming in here trying to tell us about our cars 'cause they are going to be parking the nicest 964 example in their garage soon.
Make sure you get the right viscosity anti-freeze, very important on 964s.
12-29-2013, 02:07 AM
#103
It is obvious that you can make a 964, or any other random vehicle, go as fast or faster than a singer. I can make a go kart do that. So what? Is that the extent of your insight?
That is not an "experience".
12-29-2013, 02:12 AM
#104
A rennlister for nearly 4 years, over 350 posts on this website, all ready and lined up to buy a Singer, and has only posted on the 964 subforum a grand total of 5 times, 4 of which have been in this very thread.
Folks that don't know our cars coming in here trying to tell us about our cars 'cause they are going to be parking the nicest 964 example in their garage soon.
Make sure you get the right viscosity anti-freeze, very important on 964s.
Folks that don't know our cars coming in here trying to tell us about our cars 'cause they are going to be parking the nicest 964 example in their garage soon.
Make sure you get the right viscosity anti-freeze, very important on 964s.
12-29-2013, 02:14 AM
#105
Nordschleife Master
I think the wording "Singer experience" is definitely wrong but I understand what he's saying, and it's what i've been saying on here and some other non-Porsche forum i'm on.
Lots of folks unfamiliar with Porsches, especially air-cooled Porsches, are spazzing out over the Singer and saying crazy stuff like "if I won the lottery" or "if I was a millionaire" and what not. To those people, what i've been trying to get them to understand is that you can have a hot rod air-cooled 911 experience w/o dropping half a milli. The car isn't going to be like a brand new car, it isn't going to have CF body panels, it isn't going to have a 30k wiring harness, and all the other great things that are on the Singer, but it's going to be a pretty darn cool 911.
Singer didn't invent the hot rod segment of the 911 market, people have been doing this forever, and for much less than the Singer cost of admission.
Lots of folks unfamiliar with Porsches, especially air-cooled Porsches, are spazzing out over the Singer and saying crazy stuff like "if I won the lottery" or "if I was a millionaire" and what not. To those people, what i've been trying to get them to understand is that you can have a hot rod air-cooled 911 experience w/o dropping half a milli. The car isn't going to be like a brand new car, it isn't going to have CF body panels, it isn't going to have a 30k wiring harness, and all the other great things that are on the Singer, but it's going to be a pretty darn cool 911.
Singer didn't invent the hot rod segment of the 911 market, people have been doing this forever, and for much less than the Singer cost of admission.