C4 now or Wait for a C2???
04-09-2014, 06:49 PM
#31
Either way you'll prefer the better sorted car C4 or C2.
Hi Peter, hope all is well?
Have to say I don't agree with that. Well not fully. It's underrated by those who are looking to buy, but not by those who have bought.
So many times people go on to buy C2s or C4s on condition, because all these versus threads end up with the same conclusion - 99% of time it makes no difference.
Can't fault that thought. I completely appreciate the appeal of both on track.
04-09-2014, 07:02 PM
#32
Burning Brakes
And just to further complicate matters for the OP, good as a well setup C2 is, if you can find one with option 220 LSD then you really are in a different place again. The stability and characteristics it adds under power is great but its real party piece comes under braking. Its addictive wet or dry.
Navaros, your points on rotation are spot on and its a key point of the driving experience imo.
Navaros, your points on rotation are spot on and its a key point of the driving experience imo.
04-10-2014, 03:28 PM
#33
Let me get this right, you're hesitating on purchasing a 964 for a 964?
Though choice right?
Personal opinion - if you are targeting road driving and want full time usable car, the C4 is probably the easier car to live with.
That being said, I have driven both for extended periods. A C2 targa (tiptronic) and my current daily driver C4 coupe. They are very different because of their drive train and cassis... in terms of driving dynamics the difference isn't as big as you may believe.
Like others have said, at the limit you will notice very different behavior, with the C4 being more sure footed and offering a form of stability, where the C2 is more playful and can be called more exciting to drive (until it goes wrong and you wonder if a C4 would've kept you out of trouble).
The biggest difference in my opinion isn't the weight, its how they rotate in cornering. Give the C2 a stab in the corner and it rotates more easily... but you need to be pushing the car a little for this... at normal driving speeds this doesn't really come out. The C4 feels a little heavier in the corners because it is more planted... it does not want to rotate that easily and pushes out a little - again something we associate with weight. This sounds like something less exiting... something you don't want in a fun car. It is not necessarily bad as it builds confidence in places where I'd normally be way more careful in a 2.
This comes from someone who's not afraid to push a car and I've driven almost every Porsche on the track and the road produced since 2000 and a few older ones.
My C4 is faster in day to day driving here than the 997 in the corners. On the 997 pushing it hard through a corner would have the tail step out... the first thing I noticed on the C4 was how planted and fast it could go through corners. This is on real road, not on a track.
The C2 is great, faster straight line performance when speed builds, easier to turn in... but whether this is important to you is something nobody else can decide upon.
Bottom line: under certain circumstances you will notice the difference between the 2 and 4... but in most cases you will not notice this too much.
Just to give a comparison, before my car starts pushing out and rotating through a corner becomes "safe" on the C4, my friends Clio RS lifts it's rear wheel... and that's a very capable car... and by the time we get there, I get a little nervous in a C4, let alone a C2.
A C2 with electronics to keep you on track in the more modern cars... fun and safe on the road.
Now try the C4 and decide afterwards.
Though choice right?
Personal opinion - if you are targeting road driving and want full time usable car, the C4 is probably the easier car to live with.
That being said, I have driven both for extended periods. A C2 targa (tiptronic) and my current daily driver C4 coupe. They are very different because of their drive train and cassis... in terms of driving dynamics the difference isn't as big as you may believe.
Like others have said, at the limit you will notice very different behavior, with the C4 being more sure footed and offering a form of stability, where the C2 is more playful and can be called more exciting to drive (until it goes wrong and you wonder if a C4 would've kept you out of trouble).
The biggest difference in my opinion isn't the weight, its how they rotate in cornering. Give the C2 a stab in the corner and it rotates more easily... but you need to be pushing the car a little for this... at normal driving speeds this doesn't really come out. The C4 feels a little heavier in the corners because it is more planted... it does not want to rotate that easily and pushes out a little - again something we associate with weight. This sounds like something less exiting... something you don't want in a fun car. It is not necessarily bad as it builds confidence in places where I'd normally be way more careful in a 2.
This comes from someone who's not afraid to push a car and I've driven almost every Porsche on the track and the road produced since 2000 and a few older ones.
My C4 is faster in day to day driving here than the 997 in the corners. On the 997 pushing it hard through a corner would have the tail step out... the first thing I noticed on the C4 was how planted and fast it could go through corners. This is on real road, not on a track.
The C2 is great, faster straight line performance when speed builds, easier to turn in... but whether this is important to you is something nobody else can decide upon.
Bottom line: under certain circumstances you will notice the difference between the 2 and 4... but in most cases you will not notice this too much.
Just to give a comparison, before my car starts pushing out and rotating through a corner becomes "safe" on the C4, my friends Clio RS lifts it's rear wheel... and that's a very capable car... and by the time we get there, I get a little nervous in a C4, let alone a C2.
A C2 with electronics to keep you on track in the more modern cars... fun and safe on the road.
Now try the C4 and decide afterwards.
This is the kind of post that really Helps me, thank you very much!
Thanks All You guys, you all are being a huge help for me!
This weekend I'll drive the c4, I'll try to get it to the limit (mine anyway) and try to feel everything you guys explained to me in a very clear way!!
'll comment later on the experience
Thanks
04-11-2014, 08:56 AM
#34
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Yes I have C4 and no C2 but a 356 on 165 section tyres to compare! Also, I am not selling my C4 so have no interest in driving up values.
But just to bolster something Frank alluded to: One of the many good things about of 964 is tuneablity, and how well two 964's have been modified is perhaps much more likely to affect their real-world feel when compared back to back, as opposed to C2 vs C4. Its rare to find a stock car these days - almost none of these cars are still on their original suspension, partly because it has worn out, partly because replacing it makes them so much better.
So, a sorted C4 with well considered suspension/roll bars/geo/wheels and tyres package, a LWF and a cat bypass is going to feel fantastic and make you grin all day - compared to a stock C2 or one with bad shocks, bad tyres or a crap alignment.
Beyond this I would agree that the tuneabilty is also going to narrow the gap significantly, as had been said before (sorry Frank again) - the understeer, front ride height and extra weight can all be easily dealt with in a C4.
There is also something else that all wheel drive Porsches do, which maybe makes up for whatever loss of edginess - its that astonishing combination of traction and grip that you feel for example when flooring it out of a damp corner or roundabout, because of the combination of rear weight bias and extra front grip working in synergy. I have never felt anything like it, even other awd performance cars. For all of these reasons, and market speculation aside, if I ever had to replace my 964 I would def choose C4 again.
But just to bolster something Frank alluded to: One of the many good things about of 964 is tuneablity, and how well two 964's have been modified is perhaps much more likely to affect their real-world feel when compared back to back, as opposed to C2 vs C4. Its rare to find a stock car these days - almost none of these cars are still on their original suspension, partly because it has worn out, partly because replacing it makes them so much better.
So, a sorted C4 with well considered suspension/roll bars/geo/wheels and tyres package, a LWF and a cat bypass is going to feel fantastic and make you grin all day - compared to a stock C2 or one with bad shocks, bad tyres or a crap alignment.
Beyond this I would agree that the tuneabilty is also going to narrow the gap significantly, as had been said before (sorry Frank again) - the understeer, front ride height and extra weight can all be easily dealt with in a C4.
There is also something else that all wheel drive Porsches do, which maybe makes up for whatever loss of edginess - its that astonishing combination of traction and grip that you feel for example when flooring it out of a damp corner or roundabout, because of the combination of rear weight bias and extra front grip working in synergy. I have never felt anything like it, even other awd performance cars. For all of these reasons, and market speculation aside, if I ever had to replace my 964 I would def choose C4 again.
04-11-2014, 12:36 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Hey - I'm a humble 952 driver - so I've no skin in the game. But as time has gone on & the C2 has been mythologised my interest has increasingly been drawn to the C4.
The 964 C4 had a much more complex & sophisticated four wheel drive system than the 993 C4. Indeed I recall seeing an article years ago where a number of 4WD performance cars where taken to a ski area in Colorado & driven as far up the ski slope as possible. The 964C4 did extremely well IIRC.
The 964C4 - for all its complexity is technically more interesting than the later 911 C4 variants.
Okay - I profess a love of performance 4WD cars (I have a '90 20 valve Ur Quattro) - but as a road car in which to have great adventures & for grand capperings - the C4 seems more appealing. A winter drive through the Alps with the ski gear, a rain-soaked Nordschliefe, a boggy paddock/car park - no trouble to a C4. That C2 may be rooted to spot spinning it's wheels as I'm making fresh tracks on the first run of the day!
May be in a few years when more C4s have been converted to 2WD or simplified to the less complex 993 4WD system we'll be looking for 964C4s which have retained the original transmission - because it was & still is a fascinating piece of technology created with few compromises & at great expense.
Tim
The 964 C4 had a much more complex & sophisticated four wheel drive system than the 993 C4. Indeed I recall seeing an article years ago where a number of 4WD performance cars where taken to a ski area in Colorado & driven as far up the ski slope as possible. The 964C4 did extremely well IIRC.
The 964C4 - for all its complexity is technically more interesting than the later 911 C4 variants.
Okay - I profess a love of performance 4WD cars (I have a '90 20 valve Ur Quattro) - but as a road car in which to have great adventures & for grand capperings - the C4 seems more appealing. A winter drive through the Alps with the ski gear, a rain-soaked Nordschliefe, a boggy paddock/car park - no trouble to a C4. That C2 may be rooted to spot spinning it's wheels as I'm making fresh tracks on the first run of the day!
May be in a few years when more C4s have been converted to 2WD or simplified to the less complex 993 4WD system we'll be looking for 964C4s which have retained the original transmission - because it was & still is a fascinating piece of technology created with few compromises & at great expense.
Tim
04-11-2014, 01:14 PM
#36
Three Wheelin'
My C4 definitely doesn't leave me wanting for much (other than a few extra hp). As a few mentioned, you can tune the suspension to dramatically change the stock character.
I feel like all of the "C4 understeer" can be dialed out. In fact, with more weight in the nose, the front tires should be getting more grip and not less! Maybe that's why the factory was so conservative with C4 swaybar sizes.
Also, you never have to worry about power-out-of-a-corner-inside-wheelspin
I feel like all of the "C4 understeer" can be dialed out. In fact, with more weight in the nose, the front tires should be getting more grip and not less! Maybe that's why the factory was so conservative with C4 swaybar sizes.
Also, you never have to worry about power-out-of-a-corner-inside-wheelspin
04-13-2014, 11:05 AM
#38
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Location: Detroit (Rock City); 1990 C4
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@Penguinracer: Agree! I think that eventually the mechanical complexity of the 964C4 and it's status as Porsche's first road-going AWD platform will enhance value. The fact that it works a treat won't hurt 
04-13-2014, 05:00 PM
#39
04-14-2014, 01:29 AM
#41
Burning Brakes
In everyday driving you'd find it impossible to tell the difference. Spirited/ track driving may be another matter.
The bottom line is that Phil Raby (to name a name) ex Total911 editor drove my 964 extensively and could not tell it was a C4. It just felt like it was on rails more due to the suspension mods than the AWD element. He's driven more 911s than any of us could probably do in a lifetime.
The bottom line is that Phil Raby (to name a name) ex Total911 editor drove my 964 extensively and could not tell it was a C4. It just felt like it was on rails more due to the suspension mods than the AWD element. He's driven more 911s than any of us could probably do in a lifetime.
Like others have said, at the limit you will notice very different behavior, with the C4 being more sure footed and offering a form of stability, where the C2 is more playful and can be called more exciting to drive (until it goes wrong and you wonder if a C4 would've kept you out of trouble).... the first thing I noticed on the C4 was how planted and fast it could go through corners. This is on real road, not on a track
04-14-2014, 10:50 AM
#42
Rennlist Member
04-14-2014, 05:48 PM
#43
Hi guys
Just tested the c4.
Generally is like you guys said, no real diference...but some things I would like to share with you.
1- the car seemed to not develop as fast as my c2 until 3000rpm, seemed dull and suddenly at 3000 rpm it developed better.
2- another thing it happened is that after pushing the car until 220km.h for a few moments, I started to smell like something burn coming from the motor.
After I stopped, the car had smoke coming from the inside of the motor, from the right side....
So, I'm a little concerned about these issues.....
Just tested the c4.
Generally is like you guys said, no real diference...but some things I would like to share with you.
1- the car seemed to not develop as fast as my c2 until 3000rpm, seemed dull and suddenly at 3000 rpm it developed better.
2- another thing it happened is that after pushing the car until 220km.h for a few moments, I started to smell like something burn coming from the motor.
After I stopped, the car had smoke coming from the inside of the motor, from the right side....
So, I'm a little concerned about these issues.....
04-14-2014, 06:18 PM
#45
Three Wheelin'
After a track day a few weeks ago, I discovered that it's fairly common to see smoke coming out of the right hand rear side of car on the 964's.
A good PPI will detoxify this is a major or minor issue.
A good PPI will detoxify this is a major or minor issue.