AMMO 964 Tire Trailer Question
12-02-2015, 03:21 PM
#16
Rennlist Member
964 Trailer Hitch FS
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...-hitch-fs.html
I bought that hitch, and decided it wasn't really a great idea to mount it to my car, and sent it out with the recycling.
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...-hitch-fs.html
I bought that hitch, and decided it wasn't really a great idea to mount it to my car, and sent it out with the recycling.
12-02-2015, 03:26 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Off Topic,
I've been meaning to ask, can you tell us more info on the engine?
What barrels and pistons are you using? Boat tailed case? Forged rods? Ported heads? What size valves? What compression and what boost? Did you use the original heads and machine a groove for sealing rings? Also what engine management are you using, with knock?
Cheers,
I've been meaning to ask, can you tell us more info on the engine?
What barrels and pistons are you using? Boat tailed case? Forged rods? Ported heads? What size valves? What compression and what boost? Did you use the original heads and machine a groove for sealing rings? Also what engine management are you using, with knock?
Cheers,
No change other than new head studs and seals all internals were in excellent condition and the engine was from a 96 993 with only 13k miles when first modified. It is running stock compression with a twin turbo 0.5 bar boost with a massive intercooler. Uses standard 993 DME with custom chip. Runs cool on the hottest days and I have seen these engines run as much as 30,000 track miles before requiring a rebuild. The engine was built by John at Protosport and he has built more of these than I can count and have proven their durability. They have been building some crazy 700+ hp 997 turbo & GT2 race engines that seem to be bulletproof.
No guarantees of course but I am happy so if or when it blows I will invest in a fully built race engine but I find these are more high strung and don't last as long. The combination of short geared 6 speed box with racing clutch and effortless power feels very much like some of the fully worked engines that have had all the internals done but with far more power and torque. The car will not run below 3k rpm without bucking unless your WOT but it is set up for dedicated track use so I don't care. There is absolutely no turbo lag and I have not found any situation so far where the turbo impacts what the car can do. Unlike the early 930 or even the 964T's you don't need to worry about when the turbo will come on boost and it feels and drives like an N/A engine. It is taking a little getting used to the power and takes nerve to put the pedal down fully through the turns due to the amount of torque it generates but that is just a matter of seat time. There is full throttle control as I had in my C2 just with much more power. I have had track experienced 997TT owners ask me how I had the grip and ability to pull on them up a climbing hill turn at Palmer this summer and I have been able to pull on 991GT3's in the straights while we are both at WOT. The only downfall seems to be it eats LSD's. But they can easily be rebuilt.
Not a very exciting build but it does more than I could have achieved from a 3.8 or 4.0 build with all the fun.
Sorry for the Off topic.
12-02-2015, 04:25 PM
#18
I was originally going for a full 3.8 build but the cost to maximize these engines was almost my entire budget after you factor in all the internal mods. I was fortunate enough to fall into a freshly rebuilt 993 varioram engine that had been built for a rather serious PCA club/NASA racer. He raced several different 911's and after only 4 times out on the track had an incident during a race in the rain stuffing the car into the wall destroying the tub. Decided to go in a different direction so I picked up the entire drivetrain including clutch and modified 6 speed box. It was one of those couldn't say no to and allowed me to get back on the track much sooner than if I built a fresh engine.
No change other than new head studs and seals all internals were in excellent condition and the engine was from a 96 993 with only 13k miles when first modified. It is running stock compression with a twin turbo 0.5 bar boost with a massive intercooler. Uses standard 993 DME with custom chip. Runs cool on the hottest days and I have seen these engines run as much as 30,000 track miles before requiring a rebuild. The engine was built by John at Protosport and he has built more of these than I can count and have proven their durability. They have been building some crazy 700+ hp 997 turbo & GT2 race engines that seem to be bulletproof.
No guarantees of course but I am happy so if or when it blows I will invest in a fully built race engine but I find these are more high strung and don't last as long. The combination of short geared 6 speed box with racing clutch and effortless power feels very much like some of the fully worked engines that have had all the internals done but with far more power and torque. The car will not run below 3k rpm without bucking unless your WOT but it is set up for dedicated track use so I don't care. There is absolutely no turbo lag and I have not found any situation so far where the turbo impacts what the car can do. Unlike the early 930 or even the 964T's you don't need to worry about when the turbo will come on boost and it feels and drives like an N/A engine. It is taking a little getting used to the power and takes nerve to put the pedal down fully through the turns due to the amount of torque it generates but that is just a matter of seat time. There is full throttle control as I had in my C2 just with much more power. I have had track experienced 997TT owners ask me how I had the grip and ability to pull on them up a climbing hill turn at Palmer this summer and I have been able to pull on 991GT3's in the straights while we are both at WOT. The only downfall seems to be it eats LSD's. But they can easily be rebuilt.
Not a very exciting build but it does more than I could have achieved from a 3.8 or 4.0 build with all the fun.
Sorry for the Off topic.
No change other than new head studs and seals all internals were in excellent condition and the engine was from a 96 993 with only 13k miles when first modified. It is running stock compression with a twin turbo 0.5 bar boost with a massive intercooler. Uses standard 993 DME with custom chip. Runs cool on the hottest days and I have seen these engines run as much as 30,000 track miles before requiring a rebuild. The engine was built by John at Protosport and he has built more of these than I can count and have proven their durability. They have been building some crazy 700+ hp 997 turbo & GT2 race engines that seem to be bulletproof.
No guarantees of course but I am happy so if or when it blows I will invest in a fully built race engine but I find these are more high strung and don't last as long. The combination of short geared 6 speed box with racing clutch and effortless power feels very much like some of the fully worked engines that have had all the internals done but with far more power and torque. The car will not run below 3k rpm without bucking unless your WOT but it is set up for dedicated track use so I don't care. There is absolutely no turbo lag and I have not found any situation so far where the turbo impacts what the car can do. Unlike the early 930 or even the 964T's you don't need to worry about when the turbo will come on boost and it feels and drives like an N/A engine. It is taking a little getting used to the power and takes nerve to put the pedal down fully through the turns due to the amount of torque it generates but that is just a matter of seat time. There is full throttle control as I had in my C2 just with much more power. I have had track experienced 997TT owners ask me how I had the grip and ability to pull on them up a climbing hill turn at Palmer this summer and I have been able to pull on 991GT3's in the straights while we are both at WOT. The only downfall seems to be it eats LSD's. But they can easily be rebuilt.
Not a very exciting build but it does more than I could have achieved from a 3.8 or 4.0 build with all the fun.
Sorry for the Off topic.
I suppose that at low boost you don't have the issues that are normally associated with turbo 964 engines... were you running higher boost you would probably suffer from blow by in using the stock rubber head gaskets and perhaps problems with stock case bolts. Beefed up head studs make perfect sense for your engine.
I completely agree about high reving/ high HP NA 3,6 and 3,8 engines. They are highly strung and whilst 100HP+ per litre is achievable the power delivery (which is what it's all about in my book) is not linear and often not fully exploitable if you don't match a gearbox to make sure you're in the power band all of the time.
I'm in the process of building a very high powered boosted engine, but that's another story for another thread.
12-02-2015, 05:01 PM
#19
Rennlist Member
Indeed I can imagine that it delivers power in a very linear way with stock/ high compression. Perfect for a track car.
I suppose that at low boost you don't have the issues that are normally associated with turbo 964 engines... were you running higher boost you would probably suffer from blow by in using the stock rubber head gaskets and perhaps problems with stock case bolts. Beefed up head studs make perfect sense for your engine.
I completely agree about high reving/ high HP NA 3,6 and 3,8 engines. They are highly strung and whilst 100HP+ per litre is achievable the power delivery (which is what it's all about in my book) is not linear and often not fully exploitable if you don't match a gearbox to make sure you're in the power band all of the time.
I'm in the process of building a very high powered boosted engine, but that's another story for another thread.
I suppose that at low boost you don't have the issues that are normally associated with turbo 964 engines... were you running higher boost you would probably suffer from blow by in using the stock rubber head gaskets and perhaps problems with stock case bolts. Beefed up head studs make perfect sense for your engine.
I completely agree about high reving/ high HP NA 3,6 and 3,8 engines. They are highly strung and whilst 100HP+ per litre is achievable the power delivery (which is what it's all about in my book) is not linear and often not fully exploitable if you don't match a gearbox to make sure you're in the power band all of the time.
I'm in the process of building a very high powered boosted engine, but that's another story for another thread.
Yes the low boost is a great cost effective solution for a track car. Easy and cheap to build and does not have the myriad of issues the factory turbo engines can suffer from. The two smaller turbos spool up very quickly. The down side to them is they do require periodic rebuilding but the engine came with a spare new set.
Meanwhile back to the thread
12-05-2015, 01:14 PM
#20
AMMO thanks for the Vids.
I know you probably have space issues, but i would be worried bouncing that trailer behind my car.
What do you think about this?
https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...w-vehicle.html
Sorry I'm not posting about my differential barrel settings blah blah blah
I know you probably have space issues, but i would be worried bouncing that trailer behind my car.
What do you think about this?
https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...w-vehicle.html
Sorry I'm not posting about my differential barrel settings blah blah blah
12-05-2015, 01:22 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
This is how it works, so save yourself the pain now :-)
Drive to track, have a great time, then blow a tire or cord one and have to drive home worrying whole way
Get a buddy to carry tires for you to the track, that gets old and you don't like leeching
Get a rack for the car or a small trailer, Then you get a bunch more crap
So you get a cayenne diesel and an open trailer, carry your own stuff, and enjoy a cushy ride home after track days
^^^^ I AM HERE
Then it rains, or you need to park the car overnight, or you're dead tired and don't want to unload so you sell the open trailer for an enclosed.
Then you find you'd really like more towing power and a bigger trailer so you sell the trailer and the cayenne for a 1 ton truck and a 24ft+ enclosed trailer with AC, lighting, a wet bar, and stripper pole
Most stop here
Then you realize damn, I have 2 other cars I'd love to drive on track so you get a toter, and you can also sleep at the track, so you pay 1000/mo to store your rig when a hotel costs you 250 but the time saved is totally worth it in your head.
Then you say "F IT" and go arrive and drive, show up in your Panamera, throw on the driving suit, drive, take a nap, eat, write the checks.
Or at least that is what i see around here :-)
In all seriousness the hitches available attach to the bumper under the center cover, cut that, mount hitch, keep it as light as possible. Quite a few guys around here do this. Most seem to have built the setup themselves.
Drive to track, have a great time, then blow a tire or cord one and have to drive home worrying whole way
Get a buddy to carry tires for you to the track, that gets old and you don't like leeching
Get a rack for the car or a small trailer, Then you get a bunch more crap
So you get a cayenne diesel and an open trailer, carry your own stuff, and enjoy a cushy ride home after track days
^^^^ I AM HERE
Then it rains, or you need to park the car overnight, or you're dead tired and don't want to unload so you sell the open trailer for an enclosed.
Then you find you'd really like more towing power and a bigger trailer so you sell the trailer and the cayenne for a 1 ton truck and a 24ft+ enclosed trailer with AC, lighting, a wet bar, and stripper pole
Most stop here
Then you realize damn, I have 2 other cars I'd love to drive on track so you get a toter, and you can also sleep at the track, so you pay 1000/mo to store your rig when a hotel costs you 250 but the time saved is totally worth it in your head.
Then you say "F IT" and go arrive and drive, show up in your Panamera, throw on the driving suit, drive, take a nap, eat, write the checks.
Or at least that is what i see around here :-)
In all seriousness the hitches available attach to the bumper under the center cover, cut that, mount hitch, keep it as light as possible. Quite a few guys around here do this. Most seem to have built the setup themselves.
12-05-2015, 01:25 PM
#22
This is how it works, so save yourself the pain now :-)
Drive to track, have a great time, then blow a tire or cord one and have to drive home worrying whole way
Get a buddy to carry tires for you to the track, that gets old and you don't like leeching
Get a rack for the car or a small trailer, Then you get a bunch more crap
So you get a cayenne diesel and an open trailer, carry your own stuff, and enjoy a cushy ride home after track days
^^^^ I AM HERE
Then it rains, or you need to park the car overnight, or you're dead tired and don't want to unload so you sell the open trailer for an enclosed.
Then you find you'd really like more towing power and a bigger trailer so you sell the trailer and the cayenne for a 1 ton truck and a 24ft+ enclosed trailer with AC, lighting, a wet bar, and stripper pole
Most stop here
Then you realize damn, I have 2 other cars I'd love to drive on track so you get a toter, and you can also sleep at the track, so you pay 1000/mo to store your rig when a hotel costs you 250 but the time saved is totally worth it in your head.
Then you say "F IT" and go arrive and drive, show up in your Panamera, throw on the driving suit, drive, take a nap, eat, write the checks.
Or at least that is what i see around here :-)
In all seriousness the hitches available attach to the bumper under the center cover, cut that, mount hitch, keep it as light as possible. Quite a few guys around here do this. Most seem to have built the setup themselves.
Drive to track, have a great time, then blow a tire or cord one and have to drive home worrying whole way
Get a buddy to carry tires for you to the track, that gets old and you don't like leeching
Get a rack for the car or a small trailer, Then you get a bunch more crap
So you get a cayenne diesel and an open trailer, carry your own stuff, and enjoy a cushy ride home after track days
^^^^ I AM HERE
Then it rains, or you need to park the car overnight, or you're dead tired and don't want to unload so you sell the open trailer for an enclosed.
Then you find you'd really like more towing power and a bigger trailer so you sell the trailer and the cayenne for a 1 ton truck and a 24ft+ enclosed trailer with AC, lighting, a wet bar, and stripper pole
Most stop here
Then you realize damn, I have 2 other cars I'd love to drive on track so you get a toter, and you can also sleep at the track, so you pay 1000/mo to store your rig when a hotel costs you 250 but the time saved is totally worth it in your head.
Then you say "F IT" and go arrive and drive, show up in your Panamera, throw on the driving suit, drive, take a nap, eat, write the checks.
Or at least that is what i see around here :-)
In all seriousness the hitches available attach to the bumper under the center cover, cut that, mount hitch, keep it as light as possible. Quite a few guys around here do this. Most seem to have built the setup themselves.
12-05-2015, 01:27 PM
#23
AMMO thanks for the Vids.
I know you probably have space issues, but i would be worried bouncing that trailer behind my car.
What do you think about this?
https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...w-vehicle.html
Sorry I'm not posting about my differential barrel settings blah blah blah
I know you probably have space issues, but i would be worried bouncing that trailer behind my car.
What do you think about this?
https://rennlist.com/forums/vehicle-...w-vehicle.html
Sorry I'm not posting about my differential barrel settings blah blah blah
12-05-2015, 09:40 PM
#24
This thread has some pictures and explanation of the hitch I made for my car.
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...roof-rack.html
I used this setup with a Harbor Freight trailer that weighs about 400lbs loaded, and I checked the bumper support for cracks after each season, none found.
That said, like has been said above, if you continue to track your car you will eventually trailer the car. I didn't have the budget to buy a truck and trailer, and I have no regrets about traveling in the 964 with the little trailer behind it, but on more than one occasion I wondered if I was going to get home due to mechanical/electrical issues. Without A/C and hard suspension sometimes it was pretty miserable, and there is no way my wife would go with me.
If you can swing it, get a tow vehicle and open trailer, enjoy the comfortable ride to and from the track, and you will drive harder on track knowing the car doesn't have to get you home.
Enjoy!
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-foru...roof-rack.html
I used this setup with a Harbor Freight trailer that weighs about 400lbs loaded, and I checked the bumper support for cracks after each season, none found.
That said, like has been said above, if you continue to track your car you will eventually trailer the car. I didn't have the budget to buy a truck and trailer, and I have no regrets about traveling in the 964 with the little trailer behind it, but on more than one occasion I wondered if I was going to get home due to mechanical/electrical issues. Without A/C and hard suspension sometimes it was pretty miserable, and there is no way my wife would go with me.
If you can swing it, get a tow vehicle and open trailer, enjoy the comfortable ride to and from the track, and you will drive harder on track knowing the car doesn't have to get you home.
Enjoy!
12-07-2015, 12:10 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Peachtree City, Ga
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I have attached a picture of the trailer towing bar that I made for my car. It is designed to bolt on to the bottom of the bumper mounts on the rear of the car without requiring any changes to the exterior of the car. I have pulled a small tire trailer with it loaded with jack, chairs, air tanks fuel and 4 wheels. I kept the tongue weight at under 100 lbs - the car pulled all with no issues and I used the system until this last year. It is deigned to work with a Billy Boat exhaust system that allows room for a down tube to be run from each side bottom bumper mount point. The bottom cross bar that holds the trailer ball/hitch is removed when not in use. I used high strength bolts all around. The two short bars mount to the bottom of the bumper shock mounts, the long cross bar bolts to these and then the ball hitch slides into the box on the cross bar and held with a pin. Pretty easy build and was very functional without any changes required to the bumper.
12-08-2015, 05:18 PM
#26
Track Day
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Join Date: Apr 2015
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If your really serious about doing a lot of track days a dedicated tow vehicle and trailex trailer is by far the best way to go.
If you're looking to do a toter they have more benefit than the roof rack and allow you to haul tools and supplies as well as tires. I know many who have gone that route (mostly 968, cayman and boxsters) but after a year or so they usually switch to dedicated towing.
If you're running fabspeed you should have more room behind the rear bumper support. You should easily be able to design a system to bolt up to the bottom of the aluminum support bar that you bolt on with two bolts and remove when not towing. You would need to modify the underside of the bumper cover but should be able to do it in a way that is not overly invasive. Probably 2 1" round holes drilled through that would only be noticeable when up on a lift. You might consider the solid instead of impact bumper mounts if you do this. Not sure what the weight pulling on them will do but if it works on these other cars not sure why it wouldn't on your C4.
As far as swapping your C4 out to a C2. IMO the C2 is much more fun and challenging to drive flat out although both are great. The weight savings is huge and if you can drive a C2 full out you can drive just about anything. With that said don't hack up such a beautiful car. It is a lot of work and requires a lot of changes and expense. I just did this to my 90 C4 which is now a 3.8RS tribute with about 450 BHP.
You apparently plan on taking this further so find a donor while you still can and build it up to your specific needs. The transformation to these cars with monoballs stiffer suspension, negative camber is huge but will not fare well as a street car.
BTW the Spit emergency shine you gave away at the concours in CT this summer is some of the best detailing products I have used and I have been a die hard concours nut for a long time and tried most of them. Going to need to stock up on some more soon maybe try some of your other products.
If you're looking to do a toter they have more benefit than the roof rack and allow you to haul tools and supplies as well as tires. I know many who have gone that route (mostly 968, cayman and boxsters) but after a year or so they usually switch to dedicated towing.
If you're running fabspeed you should have more room behind the rear bumper support. You should easily be able to design a system to bolt up to the bottom of the aluminum support bar that you bolt on with two bolts and remove when not towing. You would need to modify the underside of the bumper cover but should be able to do it in a way that is not overly invasive. Probably 2 1" round holes drilled through that would only be noticeable when up on a lift. You might consider the solid instead of impact bumper mounts if you do this. Not sure what the weight pulling on them will do but if it works on these other cars not sure why it wouldn't on your C4.
As far as swapping your C4 out to a C2. IMO the C2 is much more fun and challenging to drive flat out although both are great. The weight savings is huge and if you can drive a C2 full out you can drive just about anything. With that said don't hack up such a beautiful car. It is a lot of work and requires a lot of changes and expense. I just did this to my 90 C4 which is now a 3.8RS tribute with about 450 BHP.
You apparently plan on taking this further so find a donor while you still can and build it up to your specific needs. The transformation to these cars with monoballs stiffer suspension, negative camber is huge but will not fare well as a street car.
BTW the Spit emergency shine you gave away at the concours in CT this summer is some of the best detailing products I have used and I have been a die hard concours nut for a long time and tried most of them. Going to need to stock up on some more soon maybe try some of your other products.
03-31-2016, 01:43 AM
#27
Burning Brakes
It looks like nobody has added this video to this thread, but its going into detail how Larry modified his 964 to accommodate the custom tire carrier. I hope you have more Porsche 964 and detail videos in the pipeline, Ammo NYC is my favorite Youtube channel.
To anybody that wants to get the best detailing tips, check out his channel below. I also follow his Podcasts that are pretty entertaining.
https://www.youtube.com/user/AMMONYCdotcom
To anybody that wants to get the best detailing tips, check out his channel below. I also follow his Podcasts that are pretty entertaining.
https://www.youtube.com/user/AMMONYCdotcom
03-31-2016, 02:19 AM
#28
Rennlist Member
Cool setup. I was thinking he might get sway due to the weight all in the back but it looks like it pulls nice. I don't like the tire secure setup. I'd add an aluminum bar. The wheels were flopping around.
04-02-2016, 10:53 AM
#29
Rennlist Member
Nice work, however for $3k you can buy some nice used aluminum trailers and rent a tow vehicle but then you have to worry about storing it.
I don't see how having the rear license plate folded down while driving is legal.
I don't see how having the rear license plate folded down while driving is legal.
