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Displaying my ignorance once again.
Am I correct, in understanding the engine in the 987.1 is “turned around” from the installation in the 911? (The crank end facing forward would be facing rear in the 911)
Does this mean the well documented oil starvation would occur during sustained high G LEFT hand corners?
No way I'm going to read a 62 page thread, but I have an 08 non S that I decided to NOT track and will be selling a Mantis deep sump pan that I purchased last year.
It's Used / tested / works / proven / inexpensive. $600 + shipping.
I'll post it F/S eventually, but if you see this you have first dibs.
1. Can someone confirm (or correct) my understanding of the engine being fitted to the Cayman reverse to the 911?
2. What is the best way to monitor oil pressure?
3. An oil temp gauge would be helpful - knowing when it’s warmed up, and if it were ever getting too hot. What are the best options? (Celsius for me! Fahrenheit is like Klingon - I have a translator.)
From the above, the 5w40 oil I’m running on the street might not be ideal for the track.
Where I live the temperature rarely drops below 15°C (59°F) usually around 25°C (77°F) and often up to 35°C (95°F) - no cold start “bore scoring” worries!! (But I’m not removing the Air Conditioner to save weight!!)
Almost certainly, I’m over thinking things. As usual.
My thoughts. No charge
1. See picture below. The top of the picture is towards the front of the car. The Cayman/Boxster engine and the 911 engine are the same architecture. The 911 engine has more displacement. Nothing personal but I think your original premise that the engine orientation has an effect on bore scoring is a non-starter.
2. Ah, don't Well, if you insist, you can add a pressure sensor to the plugged tap on the top of bank 2 or you can go with a spin on filter (like you already have) and get a sandwich adapter that has ports so you can get readings right at the filter. Wiring and gauge placement are your call. To "catch" any deficiencies, you really need to data log like SRD has done and really dig into the details. The reason I say don't is if you are on the track and watching an oil pressure gauge instead of driving the car, that is a recipe for an off track excursion.
3. The electronic dipstick has 4 leads. 2 are for level. 2 are for temp. The data is in the ECU, it just is not annunciated. Rumor has it that something like the AiM Solo2 DM system can query the CAN bus and extract oil temp. Or you could also use a tee with the tap on the top of bank 2 for to get pressure and temp, routed to your own custom gauges.
Referring back to post #15, you might call Raby Enterprises and see what they recommend for that engine build. It sounds pretty stout to me as-is.
You’re diagram confirms my understanding.
I never meant to insinuate that Bore Scoring was affected by engine orientation. Rather: The well documented oil starvation on high G corners. Usually associated with right hand bends on 911’s, so, I thought maybe left hand bends on a Cayman/Boxster. The oil starvation, if occurring, is most likely to cause damaged big end bearings I understand.
My reference to Bore Scoring in a later post, was in reference to the lack of cold weather starts my engine will see - one suspect in the the bore scoring issue.
One thing to keep in mind is that the water cooled M96 engine was released circa 1998. We could argue til the cows come home as to whether design "mistakes" were made. As a newly developed engine, I imagine that issues occured. With the Cayman we got the new and improved M97 engine. Improvements were undoubtably made. So when you read about oil starvation, a lot of M96 anecdotal information is smeared into the M97 era. The same goes for bore scoring. Which is only to say, be happy that you have a Cayman!
One thing to keep in mind is that the water cooled M96 engine was released circa 1998. We could argue til the cows come home as to whether design "mistakes" were made. As a newly developed engine, I imagine that issues occured. With the Cayman we got the new and improved M97 engine. Improvements were undoubtably made. So when you read about oil starvation, a lot of M96 anecdotal information is smeared into the M97 era. The same goes for bore scoring. Which is only to say, be happy that you have a Cayman!
The M97 engine is fundamentally the same as the M96 3-chain engine.
In the case of the Cayman S (and the 07-08 Boxster S), the M97.21 engine did get an improvement with the crankshaft where they used the larger main bearings from the 3.6/3.8. This certainly does increase the strength of the crankshaft.
The other changes include:
Use of the Lokasil III process rather than the Lokasil II process for the block. By no means did this improve the bore scoring situation. At this point, I'd say 50% of all the blocks that come in are M97 3.4 and 3.8 vs the earlier engines. I'd have to go through the intake logs to give exact figures, but it's close at this point.
Larger 06-08 bearing indeed was a great improvement. With that change, the bearing restored the load capacity of the early dual row bearing but has the added benefit of the larger diameter which increases surface speeds in the bearing which ball bearings like.
Oil return swirl pots were replaced with the M97 oil slingers. The idea there is that oil gets dumped on the walls of the sump to de-aerate the oil and returns it to the sump faster.
M97.01 3.8 got a revised air oil separator design with individual separators on the heads and oil is returned via the heads rather than down to the sump like on other models with the center mounted AOS.
M97.01 3.8 also got a harmonic dampening crankshaft pulley. I believe this was to address crankshaft cracking issues see on prior 3.6 engines and also to further overcome loose manufacturing tolerance. I've seen as high as an 8 gram difference in stock piston weight on an M97.01 engine in the past.
That pretty much sums up the fundamental changes between the M96 and M97 engines. Outside of the bore size and wrist pin access hole location, there is little difference in the individual block castings across the board other than how the castings are machined.
I will add that base Boxster and Cayman engines had cast pistons and to this date, we've never seen one with bore scoring. No need to worry there.
3. The electronic dipstick has 4 leads. 2 are for level. 2 are for temp. The data is in the ECU, it just is not annunciated. Rumor has it that something like the AiM Solo2 DM system can query the CAN bus and extract oil temp. Or you could also use a tee with the tap on the top of bank 2 for to get pressure and temp, routed to your own custom gauges.
Referring back to post #15, you might call Raby Enterprises and see what they recommend for that engine build. It sounds pretty stout to me as-is.
Very good point you make about going to the CAN for actual values. Even the reported dash coolant temp value is dampened for lack of a better description.
I have used an AIM system to pull actual values on a 987.2. The coolant temp on the dash would not move but the AIM would report 225F. Big difference. We would see oil temps as high as 270-280F and when we ran Clubsports at Bilt, we'd see temps over 300F, just to give you an idea of how hot these engines run. Oil temps can get that high on a 987.1, so having instrumentation is a must.
With regards to tracking an FSI engine, Jake has always recommended Driven XP6 to combat oil viscosity loss. The XP oils also have a very strong defoaming package which is a big problem in these engines because aerated oil doesn't lubricate. And as mentioned above, keeping the oil cool is key to controlling oil pressure losses.
Charles, it has been many years since I looked into race oils so if this is a silly question, please excuse me. At one time, I remember race oils had a short drain cycle, like 500 miles. Is that still the case with more modern oils?
Charles, it has been many years since I looked into race oils so if this is a silly question, please excuse me. At one time, I remember race oils had a short drain cycle, like 500 miles. Is that still the case with more modern oils?
Yes. Race oils have very low levels of detergents, dispersants, and corrosion inhibitors by design. This allows the anti-wear and friction modifier packages to work their best. As a result, the oil has to be changed much more often and you should not store an engine with a race oil, especially used race oil.
That said, 500 miles is a bit short from what I saw when testing XP9 in our Porsche engines. You could stretch this out a few hundred more miles without hurting anything.
@Charles Navarro Charles, thanks for contributing to this thread.
Same question, but in regard to the Driven DT-40 that you sell and recommend for water cooled Porsches? Can it be used as a "street" oil and how often should it be changed?
@Charles Navarro Charles, thanks for contributing to this thread.
Same question, but in regard to the Driven DT-40 that you sell and recommend for water cooled Porsches? Can it be used as a "street" oil and how often should it be changed?
Both the DT and DI series of oils are intended for street use. We recommend an OCI of 6 months or 5,000 miles. We would make this same recommendation for oil change interval even with a factory approved oil.
987.1 models would use DT40 and 987.2 and later models should use DI40. Only exception is the base model 987.2 models that can use DT40.
@Charles Navarro Charles, thanks for contributing to this thread.
Same question, but in regard to the Driven DT-40 that you sell and recommend for water cooled Porsches? Can it be used as a "street" oil and how often should it be changed?
I run dt40 in my 996 daily driver, have been for almost 50,000 miles. I change it about every 4,000 miles, that's the recommendation I've seen on here before from l&n engineering.
Yes, always use a 50 weight oil for Track Events ( preferably with Ester) like XP6 or 300V Competition or Millers CFS
The thicker oil film strength will help protect the bearings in high oil temps associated with Track Events,and also as equally if not more important the thicker oil will keep more oil in the sump due to the main oil pump by-passing more oil as the by-pass opens at high RPM's....
Also the Ester has shown to be much better at controlling aeration...
Yes, always use a 50 weight oil for Track Events ( preferably with Ester) like XP6 or 300V Competition or Millers CFS
The thicker oil film strength will help protect the bearings in high oil temps associated with Track Events,and also as equally if not more important the thicker oil will keep more oil in the sump due to the main oil pump by-passing more oil as the by-pass opens at high RPM's....
Also the Ester has shown to be much better at controlling aeration...
With stock bores you'll also want to make sure that whatever oil you use has high levels of moly, say 300-600 ppm.
Millers Nano oils have a nice amount of moly, so that's an option for the UK crowd.
01-31-2024, 06:16 PM
