Base price Cayman S
06-24-2005, 10:53 PM
#16
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I think Porsche knows what they are doing.....like it or not. You pretty much don't get to be the most profitable car company by giving the public something they don't want.
The Cayman is slotted between the Boxster and the 911 both in price and all around performance. Yes they could have easily put a 3.6 or 3.8 in it, or even the GT3 motor.......but they didn't and most lilkely won't in the near future. When we see a 4S, GT3, Turbo, or GT2 version of the Cayman it might then come close to how Porsche feels about the 911......until then the 911 still is top dog, and thats the way Porsche wants it. The mid-engine Cayman design may be the future 5 or so years from now (probably should be), but not today.....not this version of the Cayman, its still a junior and Porsche will treat it as such.
Fact is the market for an expensive 2 seater (no matter what engine config) is still pretty narrow.......and a very big portion of potential Porsche owners will still go for a 911. You can call them posers or non-enthusiasts, but the fact remains the 911 is still very popular (for good reasons) and I don't think that is going to change.
The Cayman is slotted between the Boxster and the 911 both in price and all around performance. Yes they could have easily put a 3.6 or 3.8 in it, or even the GT3 motor.......but they didn't and most lilkely won't in the near future. When we see a 4S, GT3, Turbo, or GT2 version of the Cayman it might then come close to how Porsche feels about the 911......until then the 911 still is top dog, and thats the way Porsche wants it. The mid-engine Cayman design may be the future 5 or so years from now (probably should be), but not today.....not this version of the Cayman, its still a junior and Porsche will treat it as such.
Fact is the market for an expensive 2 seater (no matter what engine config) is still pretty narrow.......and a very big portion of potential Porsche owners will still go for a 911. You can call them posers or non-enthusiasts, but the fact remains the 911 is still very popular (for good reasons) and I don't think that is going to change.
06-25-2005, 12:23 AM
#17
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Yep, thats why in the 90s when they were about to go under they designed the Boxster, which seems to be what a lot of the public wanted. The Cayman may be slotted on price but your the only one Ive seen say in all around performance. Most profitable car company? I dont think so, maybe per unit. I would think that most people come to the Cayman forum because they are interested in learning more about this new model and not what "demographic" they are in. Well I guess theres one thing we can agree on whatever the model "There Is No Substitute". Have a great day!
06-25-2005, 02:14 AM
#18
I agree that--like it or not--the rear-engined 911 is Porsche's cash cow, and the company will keep on milking until it runs dry. A 911 doesn't cost much more to build than a Boxster (the non-Turbo/G variants even use the same core M96 engine), but the 911 profit margins are FAR greater. PAG has no incentive to ruin a good thing.
In a perfect (albeit anarchic) world, buyers could option the engine of their choice. Want a 380HP 3.8L GT3 engine in your Cayman? Check the option box, fork over an additional $25k, and it's yours.
If buyers could option the engine of their choice, in a short matter of time the performance/track guys would be maxing out lightweight Caymans, while the street-oriented guys would pick and choose whatever chassis suits their needs (a 911 if they need backseats, Boxster/Cayman if they don't). We'll probably never see the perfect world come from Stuttgart--it would wreak marketing havoc--so if you want an extreme horsepower mid-engine Porsche coupe, you'll have to build your own. Again, I can't wait to see what Ruf does with the platform.
In a perfect (albeit anarchic) world, buyers could option the engine of their choice. Want a 380HP 3.8L GT3 engine in your Cayman? Check the option box, fork over an additional $25k, and it's yours.
If buyers could option the engine of their choice, in a short matter of time the performance/track guys would be maxing out lightweight Caymans, while the street-oriented guys would pick and choose whatever chassis suits their needs (a 911 if they need backseats, Boxster/Cayman if they don't). We'll probably never see the perfect world come from Stuttgart--it would wreak marketing havoc--so if you want an extreme horsepower mid-engine Porsche coupe, you'll have to build your own. Again, I can't wait to see what Ruf does with the platform.
06-25-2005, 04:20 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by rec365
Yep, thats why in the 90s when they were about to go under they designed the Boxster, which seems to be what a lot of the public wanted. The Cayman may be slotted on price but your the only one Ive seen say in all around performance. Most profitable car company? I dont think so, maybe per unit. I would think that most people come to the Cayman forum because they are interested in learning more about this new model and not what "demographic" they are in. Well I guess theres one thing we can agree on whatever the model "There Is No Substitute". Have a great day!
Now mid-engine is definitely the way to go when building a great sports car, but if you think the Cayman S will outperform a 911 S in everyday driving your totally wrong.......it is what it is for now......a baby to the 911.
In case you haven't noticed.......and just about everyone agrees here, that Porsche pretty much charges on performance, not how much it takes to build each example. That is why the Boxster is priced below the Cayman and the 911 is priced above........and also why a fixed roof Boxster (what the Cayman is) is priced above the Boxster S when in reality it probably costs less to build.
As for why people come to the Cayman forum?.......well let me tell you that I was one of the first ones here and have had a deposit down for one since the latter half of '04. Not only do I find the Cayman interesting but also the company and what they might have in store for the Cayman and its buyers in the future. So that pretty much enables me to post just about any topic concerning the Cayman or the company.
06-25-2005, 04:51 PM
#20
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Originally Posted by rec365
...Most profitable car company? I dont think so, maybe per unit.
As has been mentioned by a few folks, Porsche bases their pricing on performance. They've done this for a while, and so far it has worked very well for them.
We know the Cayman has better performance potential than a 911 - and of course Porsche knows this just as well as anyone. But at the end of the day, they are a business and like it or not, the 911 has been their single best performing model (in terms of Sales Volume x Profit Margin). Porsche had its back against the wall before and they are determined to never, ever get into that situation again. So for the time being, the market wants the 911 - some would say warts-n-all, others would say charisma-n-all. It is an icon and it will remain Porsche's high end production volume sports car for the time being - because it (currently) makes good business sense for Porsche.
Porsche is not the only company in the same trap. Though nowhere near as extreme, take Ferrari's open gate on its stick shift cars. Again, everyone knows it's not the best way to make a shift gate, but it has become such a trademark for Ferrari they can't get away from it - nor should they. Sometimes, form should lead function, but just a little bit...
Karl.
06-25-2005, 06:19 PM
#21
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Originally Posted by MikeN
The Boxster saved Porsche only because is was a fresh design......not just because it was mid-engined. Just think about it.......in the early 90's Porsche had the 911, 968 and 928, and while they are all great cars each one was pretty much getting it's butt kicked in sales because compitition had equaled and even surpassed them in both performance and price.......and which one survived......the icon, the 911.......and this will not change anytime soon even with the release of the Cayman.
While the Boxster was a fresh injection for the market, it was also a sign of things to come for Porsche's manufacturing. Japanese consultants were brought in to advise on manufacturing techniques and precipitated a change in the way Porsche built cars.
Porsche killed the 968 and 928 because they were not profitable to build. The Boxster was a new era of design and manufacturing. The 996 followed after things settled down and the processes were worked out. Then the 993 followed the fate of the 968 and 928.
My point is that the Boxster wasn't the only silver bullet that got Porsche on the wagon train again. It was a deeper more fundamental change within Porsche that brought profitability back.
Marv
06-26-2005, 01:45 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by rec365
Just curious, what do you guys think would happen if they offered the Cayman with the same power options at the same price as the 911 ?
Most people that are going to drop 911 money want more content in their car, whether it be two extra seats, more room, PCM, status, history, whatever.....doesn't mean it's right, but Porsche does know this and that's why its priced accordingly.
If Porsche developed a totally new car, mid-engined, with roughly the same power and content as the 911......then more people would buy it, but then your probably talking about what the 911 will be a generation or two from now.
06-26-2005, 02:45 PM
#24
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by MikeN
It's still just a Boxster with a roof on it......same interior, same content, etc.
06-27-2005, 10:44 AM
#25
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Originally Posted by Paul Marangoni
Not quite. They do share many components, but they're still very different cars.
06-27-2005, 12:43 PM
#26
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Rec365,
Porsche does make a mid-engine car with DOUBLE the 911's power. Just check the option box next to $440,000.
Sales have been pretty good from what I hear, and the 911 is still going strong.
Porsche does make a mid-engine car with DOUBLE the 911's power. Just check the option box next to $440,000.
Sales have been pretty good from what I hear, and the 911 is still going strong.
06-27-2005, 06:44 PM
#28
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Originally Posted by Boxsterund914
Mike N, in a post above, seems to tout the same viewpoint that I see from many different sources. This is the view that the Different Porsche products are graded from "good" to "better" to "best" based on the price of the cars. This viewpoint has been expressed in this forum, in publications that are Porsche "brand specific" and by various individuals that I have spoken with.
NOTICE: For those that are not aware, the Boxster is a mid-engine car. The 911 is a rear engine car. This is a difference that has nothing to do with price. This is not due to the design. One costs no more or less to buid than the other if they were equally optioned. Get it? It is marketing, pure and simple. Please wake up.
NOTICE: The Cayman is a mid-engine design. The 911 is a rear engine design. This is a difference that has nothing to do with price. This is not due to the design. One costs no more or less to buid than the other if they were equally optioned. Get it? It is marketing, pure and simple. Please wake up.
There are many poseurs who purchase Porsches and there are also many enthusiasts who purchase Porsches. I am certain that many poseurs "settled" on Boxsters. I would classify myself as an enthusiast, you may classify me however you wish, I care not. I have never been interested in owning a rear engine car and dealing with the associated "quirky" handling. When a mid-engine product became available from Porsche again I was VERY Interested. When the "S" version came out I bought it. The determining factor here was not price and which Porsche to buy with the dollars I had available. I did not want a SUV or an antiquated rear engine design. If that was all that had been available I would not have been shopping at the Porsche store. I wanted a well balanced sports car. If the Cayman does, in fact, arrive at a price that seems fair.........I'll be trading in some federal reserve notes.
NOTICE: For those that are not aware, the Boxster is a mid-engine car. The 911 is a rear engine car. This is a difference that has nothing to do with price. This is not due to the design. One costs no more or less to buid than the other if they were equally optioned. Get it? It is marketing, pure and simple. Please wake up.
NOTICE: The Cayman is a mid-engine design. The 911 is a rear engine design. This is a difference that has nothing to do with price. This is not due to the design. One costs no more or less to buid than the other if they were equally optioned. Get it? It is marketing, pure and simple. Please wake up.
There are many poseurs who purchase Porsches and there are also many enthusiasts who purchase Porsches. I am certain that many poseurs "settled" on Boxsters. I would classify myself as an enthusiast, you may classify me however you wish, I care not. I have never been interested in owning a rear engine car and dealing with the associated "quirky" handling. When a mid-engine product became available from Porsche again I was VERY Interested. When the "S" version came out I bought it. The determining factor here was not price and which Porsche to buy with the dollars I had available. I did not want a SUV or an antiquated rear engine design. If that was all that had been available I would not have been shopping at the Porsche store. I wanted a well balanced sports car. If the Cayman does, in fact, arrive at a price that seems fair.........I'll be trading in some federal reserve notes.
Well said.
I currently own a 996 and am considering the Cayman because I want a mid engine design. I've become addicted to the Porsche "experience" and especially the brakes and steering. I've never been a big convertible fan and now that Cayman is out my interest is really peaked.
I think they'll miss an opportunity to cater to the hard core customer base if they don't offer a Club Sport version. Someone said it cost more to produce the car when you "decontent" it, but I believe they could have figured this out ahead of time to be able to offer a CS version for a decent price. Although I guess they figure the hard core guys will pay whatever it takes.
06-27-2005, 09:44 PM
#29
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Porsche states it wants to raise production numbers. Yet they hold back on the mid-engine as they have in the past. Same oh same oh, they have to protect the 911. Ok, todays 911 is a fantastic car, as was my first porsche, a 356 37 years ago. Let it stand on its own. Just because your one of the best doesnt mean you cant be better. Come on, turn it loose. Offer the Box/Cay base thru TT in the 50 to 80 price range. Raise the price on the 911 and keep it, make everybody happy. I just cant see how offering a better design at a more realistic price will be the end of Porsche. Maybe they just dont want to work holidays and weekends.
06-27-2005, 11:04 PM
#30
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