Cost (Philosophical)
11-09-2013, 09:11 AM
#17
6th Gear
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My philosophy has been "if you enjoy something, feel free to spend on it, but if you don't have a deep interest, don't waste your money."
I am a terrible golfer. Don't golf often. Spent $500 on a full set of clubs. My buddy is an avid golfer, and has spent - and continues to spend thousands on it. Makes him happy.
I love mountain biking. Believe it or not, my latest bike sells for over $10K. My golfing friend joins us occasionally, but rides a heavy clunker, kids bike.
I think the Porsche thing is similar, but of course on a larger (more expensive) scale. If you are a car lover, don't be afraid to spend on it. The caveat being that you can afford it, which you addressed.
I am a terrible golfer. Don't golf often. Spent $500 on a full set of clubs. My buddy is an avid golfer, and has spent - and continues to spend thousands on it. Makes him happy.
I love mountain biking. Believe it or not, my latest bike sells for over $10K. My golfing friend joins us occasionally, but rides a heavy clunker, kids bike.
I think the Porsche thing is similar, but of course on a larger (more expensive) scale. If you are a car lover, don't be afraid to spend on it. The caveat being that you can afford it, which you addressed.
11-09-2013, 08:16 PM
#18
Track Day
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While I was growing up my parents emphasized education with my father saying he had wanted to be an engineer but wasn't able to go to college and so he was a carpenter and a weekend mechanic. Recalling this drove me to reapply for grad school after working for a few years when I hadn't gotten into my choice directly from college. I was frugal, finished school owing much less than my classmates and paid it all off in less than 10 years.
Since then I have been saving too for retirement but was bitten 5 years ago by the Porsche bug in the form of a 944. When I saw the Peridot Cayman R I debated for several months and ultimately asked myself how much would I regret not getting it vs regreting the money spent? I have had it for 2 years and still get a big grin when I look at it and just love driving it. You only live once and how long do you want to delay gratification?
Since then I have been saving too for retirement but was bitten 5 years ago by the Porsche bug in the form of a 944. When I saw the Peridot Cayman R I debated for several months and ultimately asked myself how much would I regret not getting it vs regreting the money spent? I have had it for 2 years and still get a big grin when I look at it and just love driving it. You only live once and how long do you want to delay gratification?
11-09-2013, 11:17 PM
#19
Team Owner
First I will say with your financial take I wish while in DC you worked for the government, but obviously not. Or, your are very conflicted and miserable. Now, to the issue of Porsche lust tempered by logic. You must get over this. For instance; some models like the Boxter and Caymen depreciate around 50% by year 5-6. Given first time vanity buyers abound there are a lot of examples with less than 30k miles. They buy them and are afraid to use them. An amazing and rather common occurrence. So, for something you have a passion for this is not all so bad is it?
I bought my rather basic 06 Cayman S a bit over two years ago with 32k miles for $31k. Now has about 54k, have used as my commuter car. Put a smile on my face every day drove it. Tires, routine maintenance about $2,500 so far. Next oil change needs serp belt, water pump, plugs etc. so about $1,800 or so. No much more than the Infinity and Acura in the stable over same mileage.
I bought my rather basic 06 Cayman S a bit over two years ago with 32k miles for $31k. Now has about 54k, have used as my commuter car. Put a smile on my face every day drove it. Tires, routine maintenance about $2,500 so far. Next oil change needs serp belt, water pump, plugs etc. so about $1,800 or so. No much more than the Infinity and Acura in the stable over same mileage.
11-10-2013, 11:04 PM
#20
This reminds me of the fellow I was talking to me about race car expences. I asked what his hobby was and he said it was fishing & hunting. I asked where do you do that and he replied, "My cabin". (His cabin expenses were more than my racing) We all have our own personal way to waste(?) our children's inheritance. LIfe is too short to fret over expendable income, that you have. Buy a used Porsche and smile every time you drive it, like the rest of us. I am on my 8th Porsche and I have no regrets. By the way, do you have a hobby?????
11-10-2013, 11:57 PM
#21
Team Owner
^ spot on. These cars are not just transportation / depreciatable assets. They are also hobby and entertainment. The thing hit me today as I considered this was consider that vacation to Europe, Hawaii etc. last year, I believe that was a 100% write off, no recovery zero residual value. How can you possibly justify that? Solely on the entertainment derived. Same deal. Well, except for the part instead of trinkets and photos got that toy out in the garage just waiting for the next adventure.
11-11-2013, 08:02 PM
#22
Race Director
I always bought crappy cars until I was diagnosed with malignant melanoma and got the "if you've ever wanted to take a dream vacation, now's the time to take it" lecture from my surgeon.
Things turned out just fine, but it did make me realize that saving every dime for "someday" is great unless you don't live until "someday" rolls around.
Save for tomorrow, but not at the expense of living today.
Things turned out just fine, but it did make me realize that saving every dime for "someday" is great unless you don't live until "someday" rolls around.
Save for tomorrow, but not at the expense of living today.
11-12-2013, 03:31 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Regarding "investing" in a modern Porsche, I think there is a sweet spot that is a balance between old enough that the cost is 50-60% of new, and yet not old enough that the car is technically obsolete nor prone to need extensive repair/renovation. Maybe that age is '06 to '09 for Caymans right now, depending upon miles and condition of car. Also maybe '05 to '08 for 997s.
11-20-2013, 04:16 PM
#24
From the internet....
• A sports car is a celebratory choice, the auto equivalent of champagne. Nobody needs either one; no vitamins in either and no essential nutrients. You go with them purely because they make you feel good. As Aristotle once observed, "Fun is fun to have."
• A car is not just a way to get from Point A to Point B, it is the Point.
• A sports car is a celebratory choice, the auto equivalent of champagne. Nobody needs either one; no vitamins in either and no essential nutrients. You go with them purely because they make you feel good. As Aristotle once observed, "Fun is fun to have."
• A car is not just a way to get from Point A to Point B, it is the Point.
11-20-2013, 04:44 PM
#25
The simple answer is that once one thinks of a car as an "asset" or "frivolity", one has already lost. If you have the means, but somehow feel the need to justify it to yourself, you might as well not even bother. When one becomes that much of a slave to money, a certain detachment to reality takes over. I feel a measured amount of pity for you, as you will never be able to enjoy a 911, or any "Depreciating asset", for that matter, in the way that many of us do.
I've been lurking here for some time now, and I haven't seen this issue directly addressed, so might as well be my first post.
How do you justify your expenditure on your cars? I don't mean pragmatically: it's clear this is all quite illogical. What allows you to get past the relatively large and somewhat unnecessary allocation of funds to a depreciating asset?
I ask because I am a real car nut, and the Porsche design, technically and aesthetically, has always appealed to me. That said, I'm a total cheapskate, and have never bought a car that cost more than $20k.
It's never been an issue of funds, not by a long stretch, just a matter of philosophy and fiscal restraint. So what gets you all in to, say, even an $80k car? How does one temper one's reason with frivolity?
How do you justify your expenditure on your cars? I don't mean pragmatically: it's clear this is all quite illogical. What allows you to get past the relatively large and somewhat unnecessary allocation of funds to a depreciating asset?
I ask because I am a real car nut, and the Porsche design, technically and aesthetically, has always appealed to me. That said, I'm a total cheapskate, and have never bought a car that cost more than $20k.
It's never been an issue of funds, not by a long stretch, just a matter of philosophy and fiscal restraint. So what gets you all in to, say, even an $80k car? How does one temper one's reason with frivolity?
11-21-2013, 04:28 AM
#26
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Simple. You need to scratch the itch. The itch being the dream that constantly visits you every night and day.
Like a drug addict, the high requires a stronger dose each time and therefore only the purest form will only suffice.
For many, only a Porsche will do as the proper dose.
yeah it is more then a $20k fix, but everything is all good when you finally get one and you can be at peace with oneself. For a little while anyhow... then the itch comes back. This is why they build the Cup car….
Depreciation is forgotten about when the bliss and high of ownership of the car of your dreams keeps you forever stimulated.
Like a drug addict, the high requires a stronger dose each time and therefore only the purest form will only suffice.
For many, only a Porsche will do as the proper dose.
yeah it is more then a $20k fix, but everything is all good when you finally get one and you can be at peace with oneself. For a little while anyhow... then the itch comes back. This is why they build the Cup car….
Depreciation is forgotten about when the bliss and high of ownership of the car of your dreams keeps you forever stimulated.
11-21-2013, 12:31 PM
#27
Drifting
Life is meant to be an experience. It certainly important to provide for your future, to take care of your family and have funds for an emergency.
However, everything can be made into a question of cost vs. value vs. experience. There is a cost to everything, but some benefits that come back to you are not necessarily in dollars and cents.
You could eat cheap take out value meals every night by yourself and probably save some money (but a quicker path to a grave so you won't need your retirement). On the other hand you could dine with friends and family at a better place a few times a month (doesn't have to be super fancy). Eating at a better restaurant with friends and family won't make you financially richer, but you may have better times, eat healthier, and have great memories.
You can stay home and never spend any money and keep throwing all of it into your retirement. Or you can travel with family and/or friends to cool places, share adventures, see things you have only read about, and experience life and different cultures.
You can drive a boring car and get from point A to B. Or you can buy something fun that will put a smile to your face and make you want to find the "Long cuts" from point A to B.
If you have a balanced life you can save money for retirement, and still enjoy spending some of your money.
Most cars have expenses associated with them...but investments can also have expenses or losses depending on how the investment does. Sure you can write off some of the losses on your taxes, but at the end of the year...did you have more fun because you got to write off your investment, or even because you made money on it. Did you experiences something new and great, or make new friends through your loss/gain (other than some broker/hedge fund manager who makes money on you no matter what).
I've had fun with my cars and I've made lots of great friends through my cars. My wife and I go out to eat a few times month with some car friend couples. We have even traveled/vacationed to big car destination events with one couple that we met simply by being parked next to them at a car show several years ago. So having new friends with similar interests, enjoying car events together, and enjoying our cars has made it worth while IMHO.
If you build a life purely based on two columns : 1) assets and 2) liabilities...life will pass you by and you will have missed the fun in the process.
However, everything can be made into a question of cost vs. value vs. experience. There is a cost to everything, but some benefits that come back to you are not necessarily in dollars and cents.
You could eat cheap take out value meals every night by yourself and probably save some money (but a quicker path to a grave so you won't need your retirement). On the other hand you could dine with friends and family at a better place a few times a month (doesn't have to be super fancy). Eating at a better restaurant with friends and family won't make you financially richer, but you may have better times, eat healthier, and have great memories.
You can stay home and never spend any money and keep throwing all of it into your retirement. Or you can travel with family and/or friends to cool places, share adventures, see things you have only read about, and experience life and different cultures.
You can drive a boring car and get from point A to B. Or you can buy something fun that will put a smile to your face and make you want to find the "Long cuts" from point A to B.
If you have a balanced life you can save money for retirement, and still enjoy spending some of your money.
Most cars have expenses associated with them...but investments can also have expenses or losses depending on how the investment does. Sure you can write off some of the losses on your taxes, but at the end of the year...did you have more fun because you got to write off your investment, or even because you made money on it. Did you experiences something new and great, or make new friends through your loss/gain (other than some broker/hedge fund manager who makes money on you no matter what).
I've had fun with my cars and I've made lots of great friends through my cars. My wife and I go out to eat a few times month with some car friend couples. We have even traveled/vacationed to big car destination events with one couple that we met simply by being parked next to them at a car show several years ago. So having new friends with similar interests, enjoying car events together, and enjoying our cars has made it worth while IMHO.
If you build a life purely based on two columns : 1) assets and 2) liabilities...life will pass you by and you will have missed the fun in the process.
11-28-2013, 02:39 PM
#28
Track Day
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Syz,
Very philosophical thread, indeed! Most people, as I believe you are probably acutely aware (just a guess as to your propensities, given the nature of your question) are more ruled by their emotional side than their rational side. I’d offer that for most, the struggle goes towards subduing emotions in an attempt to live a more reasoned life. This is where most of humanity finds itself (myself included!).
While I am not a Hindu, the story of Arjuna going to battle, as described in the Hindu epic and holy book, the Bhagavad Gita encapsulates very nicely the struggle we face managing our corporeal and animalistic nature with our more spiritual and reasoned natures.
http://www.indianweekender.co.nz/Pag...hna-and-Arjuna
I figured that since this is a Porsche forum, the metaphor of the chariot was particularly rich. ☺
Porsches are well-engineered, beautiful, safe, relatively fuel efficient, and absolutely bedazzling to drive.
Go for it and don’t look back.
Enjoy,
-SDJ
Very philosophical thread, indeed! Most people, as I believe you are probably acutely aware (just a guess as to your propensities, given the nature of your question) are more ruled by their emotional side than their rational side. I’d offer that for most, the struggle goes towards subduing emotions in an attempt to live a more reasoned life. This is where most of humanity finds itself (myself included!).
While I am not a Hindu, the story of Arjuna going to battle, as described in the Hindu epic and holy book, the Bhagavad Gita encapsulates very nicely the struggle we face managing our corporeal and animalistic nature with our more spiritual and reasoned natures.
http://www.indianweekender.co.nz/Pag...hna-and-Arjuna
I figured that since this is a Porsche forum, the metaphor of the chariot was particularly rich. ☺
Porsches are well-engineered, beautiful, safe, relatively fuel efficient, and absolutely bedazzling to drive.
Go for it and don’t look back.
Enjoy,
-SDJ
11-28-2013, 03:54 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
If cost is a factor that will not let you sleep at night
Look at another type of fun car where maintence costs will not concern you so much! Plenty of great cars in the $20k range including: Mazda Miata, Subaru BRZ, Mini, Ford Focus or Fiesta ST. All will put a smile on your face and make the Driving more fun! None have a Porsche feel but still FUN....
11-30-2013, 11:42 PM
#30
Instructor
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If you're concerned about a depreciating asset, you could always lease a vehicle... but then questions about equity arise that would probably make you even less willing to move forward.
At dinner with a colleague last week, the topic of one of his acquaintances came up as we were looking over the wine list. This person had done quite well for himself, and was a devoted oenophile... to the point of taking trips to Europe expressly to seek out and purchase rare wines. This person's collection is too large to be stored at home, and therefore spans to a specialized climate-controlled facility. Value of the collection is well into the six-figure range.
To me this seems extreme - to collect something perishable that, if you ever enjoy it, is literally pissed away when you are finished. But it's about the experience, and wine is this person's passion. As others have said, you can't take it with you, and a pile of money that is never spent doesn't do one any good beyond the sense of financial security it may bring.
At dinner with a colleague last week, the topic of one of his acquaintances came up as we were looking over the wine list. This person had done quite well for himself, and was a devoted oenophile... to the point of taking trips to Europe expressly to seek out and purchase rare wines. This person's collection is too large to be stored at home, and therefore spans to a specialized climate-controlled facility. Value of the collection is well into the six-figure range.
To me this seems extreme - to collect something perishable that, if you ever enjoy it, is literally pissed away when you are finished. But it's about the experience, and wine is this person's passion. As others have said, you can't take it with you, and a pile of money that is never spent doesn't do one any good beyond the sense of financial security it may bring.