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New Products - Bilstein Clubsport kits - 991 GT3RS, 991.2 GT3, and GT4
I feel like not many people know these things exist, and given that I'm getting a set for my .2, I thought I'd pass along info that Bilstein has quietly (as usual) released their "Clubsport" kits for the 991 GT3RS and GT4, and I confirmed with Bilstein today that the current clubsport kit for the 991.1 GT3 will also be the same for the .2. Spring rates for the GT3 are 80N/mm (456#) and 160N/mm (913#), which are still very road friendly, but you can obviously swap them out for even stiffer if needed.
These are real-deal clubsport dampers, but with true OE type service intervals, and very good road manners. It also provides a rear monoball shock mount for the GT3, as the RS and GT4 already have monoball rear top mounts. I have a set in my M3, and I am extremely happy with their performance, and they are easy to dial in with 10 clicks for Comp and Rebound. In fact, I leave my M3 shocks in the exact same "track" settings for the street now, because they ride so nicely on 600#/800# springs. I've got Ohlins and JRZ RS Pro's in my other cars, and I honestly prefer the Bilsteins over them both, for performance and chassis control, especially in these big GT type cars. It's crazy how good of control they offer my heavy 3500lb car, on skinny 265 Trofeo-R tires...so I can only imagine what they can offer on the 991.2 GT3 chassis. I actually told my friend today that I'm looking forward to a more "firm" ride in the GT3, because I'm used to how my M3 feels, which is firm but very controlled. Even in sport mode, the .2 GT3 feels pretty soft to me.
Will you have to crawl into the back to adjust the rear shocks when initially setting them up? Yes.
Will that be worth the performance they provide? Yes.
Some don't want to mess with that, I get it, it's not for everybody, but once they are dialed in, you don't have to mess with them much. I can't remember if the kits come with a PASM delete, but I know Ohlins does sell one ala-carte which will disable and clear any messages on the dash, so it's a perfectly clean install. For what people spend on billet control arms and monoball-this monoball-that, if you are really interested in upping the performance anty, you'd be better served simply installing a set of clubsport type dampers. I'll post some follow ups once I get them installed.
So these are passive dampers which don't work with the PASM? Any evidence that they improve handling or performance? On the track, I've found the factory dampers in the 991.1 GT3 to be excellent, except in coping with bumpy high-speed braking zones, which is only a problem at my home track (Summit Point).
So these are passive dampers which don't work with the PASM? Any evidence that they improve handling or performance? On the track, I've found the factory dampers in the 991.1 GT3 to be excellent, except in coping with bumpy high-speed braking zones, which is only a problem at my home track (Summit Point).
Correct, 2-way adjustable, passive (standard) type dampers. So the factory dampers are also Bilstein, so they know exactly what is on the car. They took a 991 GT3 to a test track/proving ground facility for 2 weeks in Europe, to tune them for final specification. Obviously they aren't going to provide a "Clubsport" kit that is inferior to the stock setup for track oriented use. It's called "Clubsport", not "Roadsport". The stock bilsteins are good, but are still magneto-based dampers without any manual control over compression or rebound. While stock dampers do have a range of control over both bump and rebound, via magneto fluid control, it's for the specified spring rates, which are honestly not very track oriented. The clubsport kit is valved and sprung for a more track oriented performance window, with a wider range of individual control that is very easily noticed upon adjustment.
Even if you upgrade your PASM with something like a DSC Sport controller, you can only control the fluid/oil so much, and it's still no replacement for increasing spring rates and matching it with correct valved dampers with individual control.
The factorty setup is great, but it leaves a lot on the table when it comes to the track. That's the price you pay for convenience. If you are the type of person who doesn't want to turn a ****, or doesn't like the fun in sorting a car, then something like this wouldn't be for you, regardless of the performance increase it definitely provides. Maybe a DSC sport controller module would make more sense that type of user.
So to recap, in general:
Stock dampers < Stiffer springs w/ stock dampers (or DSC Sport controller) < Bilstein Clubsport 2-way adjustable (or similar type of kit) < Full motorsport damper 2-3-4 way adjustable, high and low speed (this isn't road friendly)
This, plus it would be good to hear reviews from 991 GT3 owners here on RL who've tried both setups.
It seems virtually no 991 owners change the shocks, they just upgrade springs. Perhaps that somewhat correlates to PDK ownership as well. I'm interested to see if we see a resurgence in the more analog, track focused owners who might be interested in these kinds of things, given the 6MT is back. I'm guessing vendors like Guard Transmission are counting on it too, with surely an LSD upgrade for the .2 GT3 coming.
Trust me, this setup will provide considerably better lap times on track, as would any more track oriented setup.
Originally Posted by RennOracle
Why these over the Manthey KW setup? Or even Ohlins from A-worx?
Both those are twin-tube race spec dampers, with internals and seals for motorsport, not clubsport for some street driving, so rebuild/service intervals are shorter. I'm not really a fan of twin-tube shocks, and while these both use lower gas pressure and have great manners over curbs, etc. they typically need more tech, resovoirs (and oil) packed into them to provide the same performance of a monotube. Those would be comparable to a Bilstein MDS damper w/ 3 way control. They are all awesome setups, but those aren't really what you want for a dual purpose car.
There are only a few really good Road and Track setups that are OE reliable and perform. Ohlins R&T and Bilstein Clubsport are the best IMO, as they are also OE applications, that tells you how good they are. The Bilstein is a double adjustable, which gives you even more flexibility over the Ohlins, with more focus on track instead of road, where Ohlins R&T are a bit more road focused typically. Both are high pressure monotube dampers.
KW is a technical partner with Manthey, so they run KW on GT3R. Wright motorsports works with Bilstein and they run MDS. Both are championship winning race teams.
FWIW - in Europe where both KW clubsports and Bilstein clubsports are both used extensively, the Bilsteins routinely garner more praise and are able to lay down faster lap times upon testing. Some of it is preference. There is a distinct feeling of good support and chassis control that Bilstein provides, especially in mid to high speed corners, which I really like. Given most of our time on track is spent in a corner, and not on a curb, I'd rather have the strength that Bilstein provides.
Trust me, this setup will provide considerably better lap times on track, as would any more track oriented setup.
Any guess if the Clubsport setup would provide laptimes closer to the stock or full race coilover end of the spectrum (i.e. 80% of the benefit of race shocks on track with much better dual-purpose suitability - or closer to the half-way point)?
I'm guessing that anything with stiffer springs is going to work much better with Hoosiers or slicks (assuming one wanted to flout their warranty).
Any guess if the Clubsport setup would provide laptimes closer to the stock or full race coilover end of the spectrum (i.e. 80% of the benefit of race shocks on track with much better dual-purpose suitability - or closer to the half-way point)?
I'm guessing that anything with stiffer springs is going to work much better with Hoosiers or slicks (assuming one wanted to flout their warranty).
It will be a bit closer to the full race spectrum. Obviously the last % of performance will depend on the setup, but in general you're going to get more benefits of a race damper, minus the separate high/low speed compression control which is what you get with 3 and 4 way adjustable full-race shocks. Those are literally so you can tune the car to handle bumps and curbs at specific tracks, like Road America for example, or other specifically challenging tracks or sections of track. You only need that if you are racing, and even then it's not required. There are tons of Pro race cars out there on 2-way race shocks doing just fine.
The Clubsports can also be further converted/serviced into a full race damper by Bilstein if you want.
Yes, the reality is that just a spring change alone will net considerable benefits. I did this with my 997.1 RS...I first upgraded springs on stock dampers, and then eventually installed some Ohlins R&T with similar spring rates, and in each case, it was a big step up in performance. The difference was that it clearly showed the benefit of more correctly matched valving and spring rates with the Ohlins. I had to run my stock dampers on "Sport" to have enough control over the stiffer springs, and the ride was a little more jarring on the street, due to not ideally matched valving...with the Ohlins I had the freedom to adjust either end of the car, and in a much bigger range. This led to faster lap times for me, and more confidence in the car at specific tracks. The exact same will apply to the 991 GT3. Just depends on how far you want to go. The BBI spring upgrade is fantastic, but I've done that before and I know I'll want the shocks, so I'm just skipping that step this time.
The shocks don't affect anything in the drive train, or really anything important, so I honestly have zero concerns about warranty with regard to spring or shock swapping.
It seems virtually no 991 owners change the shocks, they just upgrade springs. Perhaps that somewhat correlates to PDK ownership as well. I'm interested to see if we see a resurgence in the more analog, track focused owners who might be interested in these kinds of things, given the 6MT is back. I'm guessing vendors like Guard Transmission are counting on it too, with surely an LSD upgrade for the .2 GT3 coming.
Trust me, this setup will provide considerably better lap times on track, as would any more track oriented setup.
Both those are twin-tube race spec dampers, with internals and seals for motorsport, not clubsport for some street driving, so rebuild/service intervals are shorter. I'm not really a fan of twin-tube shocks, and while these both use lower gas pressure and have great manners over curbs, etc. they typically need more tech, resovoirs (and oil) packed into them to provide the same performance of a monotube. Those would be comparable to a Bilstein MDS damper w/ 3 way control. They are all awesome setups, but those aren't really what you want for a dual purpose car.
Totally off-topic, but to try something new, it would have to be either Exe-tc (for PASM delete) or Tractive. But these do look good, don't you have an actual spec sheet? With piston size, spring rates etc?
There are only a few really good Road and Track setups that are OE reliable and perform. Ohlins R&T and Bilstein Clubsport are the best IMO, as they are also OE applications, that tells you how good they are. The Bilstein is a double adjustable, which gives you even more flexibility over the Ohlins, with more focus on track instead of road, where Ohlins R&T are a bit more road focused typically. Both are high pressure monotube dampers.
KW is a technical partner with Manthey, so they run KW on GT3R. Wright motorsports works with Bilstein and they run MDS. Both are championship winning race teams.
FWIW - in Europe where both KW clubsports and Bilstein clubsports are both used extensively, the Bilsteins routinely garner more praise and are able to lay down faster lap times upon testing. Some of it is preference. There is a distinct feeling of good support and chassis control that Bilstein provides, especially in mid to high speed corners, which I really like. Given most of our time on track is spent in a corner, and not on a curb, I'd rather have the strength that Bilstein provides.
Bilsteins don't get praise that much tho, unless you are sponsored or they are just brand new, the amount of dampers that just blew up with low mileage is astonishing and scary.
Manthey KW setup(s) are pretty good on the street, the Ohlins on the GT3 RS are too. Plus aren't Monotubes actually harder on the street? But yes, monotube alone is a good reason to choose Bilstein, they just stank of failures (on lower grade suspensions tho).
12-07-2017, 06:46 PM
New Products - Bilstein Clubsport kits - 991 GT3RS, 991.2 GT3, and GT4
