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Cost- Not only on a technical basis do I believe we have the advantage vs. all other available brake solutions (lighter, stiffer, etc.), we are the lowest cost. The initial purchase of price of our system is lower than the other options. Spare pads (about $880 for a complete front/rear car set of Ferodo DS3.12 pads) and disc pricing ($599 per disc ring, front and rear) is lower, and you won't be replacing them very often anyway. When you purchase our kit, we also offer the first set of Ferodo pads at a heavily subsidized price ($450 for the entire front/rear car set), lowering the cost of entry even further. Since our system runs so cool, you also won't be thrashing the surrounding components on the car, not bleeding your fluid as often, etc...saving you even more on long-term costs.
There are also some other perks that don't often get discussed.
Burnishing and prep- In our 991 GT3 kits we include free disc burnishing on our computer-controlled burnishing machine. That means the discs are ready to rock straight out of the box, and you don't have to risk your neck or drivers' license trying to prep your discs on your own prior to track use: https://www.essexparts.com/pro-race-...ng--burnishing
NVH- Racing calipers are notorious for making noise, with pads rattling around, etc. Our 991 GT3 system includes our pad tension kit at no extra cost, which minimizes/virtually eliminates any pad rattling, jiggling, etc. This is very handy for date night, if your car isn't purely a track car. "Honey, why does your $200,000 car sound like a dump truck?." https://www.essexparts.com/essex-des...p9660-calipers
Service- We have approximately 25 staff in our Charlotte, NC headquarters dedicated towards brakes. You can call use M-F, 8am-5pm ET and get a live human on the horn...no automated attendant! We jump through all kinds of hoops to keep our clients happy, and you can be sure that we'll have your back when you need it most.
Spares- We have hundreds of discs, pads, fluid bottles, etc. on the shelf at all times. In nearly all cases (barring recent pandemic-related supply issues), we have plenty of spares on hand to overnight you, when you realize you have a disc crack when loading your trailer on a Friday night...that doesn't ever happen, does it?
We have a very long list of customers who have won races, set personal bests, lap records, etc. with our system. You can read about their experiences on our Essex Blog in the link below. I'll try to pull together some GT3-specific comments. https://www.essexparts.com/news-blog
As a nice side bonus, our kit also looks like it means business, and the anodized finish goes well with every option in the Rennbow (including piggy pink).
__________________
'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
Mgr. High Performance Division, Essex Parts Services Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kits & 2-piece J Hook Discs Ferodo Racing Brake Pads Spiegler Stainless Steel Brake Lines
704-824-6030 jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
Last edited by JRitt@essex; 06-07-2021 at 04:39 PM.
Interesting. I didn't realize the Radi-CAL caliper was smaller than OEM.
So, is there more clearance between the caliper and the wheel? This is probably minor, all things considered, but I regularly get small stones wedged between the caliper and wheel, which score the inside of the wheel. I would assume with more clearance this would become much less likely.
In the front our caliper sits very close to where the OEM one does with regards to the wheel barrel. The difference is that our front disc is 394mm in diameter vs. the stock 380mm disc. In addition to stock wheels, many of our clients run 19" Forgelines, OZ Racing, etc. Below are some OEM wheel clearance pics we took when developing our system.
As an FYI...below is our 380mm rear disc vs. the OEM 380mm disc. An important distinction is our 84 internal, directional cooling vanes. These help promote a cooler and more stable disc face that is less prone to distortion and uneven pad deposits. Most other discs on the market have half as many.
Here's the back side of the stock disc vs. ours...much less space on the stocker for cooling air to enter the disc!
Our AP Racing J Hook discs weigh considerably less than the 380mm OEM discs!
***Note: The prototype disc below wasn't fully assembled and is missing a few tenths of a pound of attachment hardware.***
Last edited by JRitt@essex; 06-07-2021 at 05:01 PM.
Last night, someone brought up an important point about brake pads in a private message. They were specifically concerned about being able to run a pad with good road manners (low dust, low noise, good cold bite) in our AP Racing calipers. That's completely doable with our setup. One of the great things about our system is that the pad shapes the AP Racing calipers use have been around for a very long time. As such, there is a wide range of pad options when you run our system. For example, you want a low dust, low noise road pad to trundle around on the streets, and a kick-**** racing pad for the track. You have that option with our system.
Our most popular street/track combo would be the Ferodo DS2500 for the road/sport use, and either Ferodo DS1.11 or DS3.12 for track use. One of the beautiful things about the Ferodo Racing line of brake pads is that they can be interchanged on the same set of discs without having to scrape them clean or rebed them. With the Ferodo pads, all the core materials are all the same. As such, you can use a DS2500 for sport/street use, and then swap to the DS1.11, DSUNO, or DS3.12 for the track. Those compounds all lay down smoothly over each other on the disc face, and don't lead to judder, etc. The Ferodo DS2500 have excellent cold bit, barely make a peep, and have a moderate level of dust.
If you're used to PCCB and can't deal with brake dust, then you could run the Hawk Performance Ceramic on the street: https://www.hawkperformance.com/pc-performance-ceramic
The Performance Ceramic are explicitly designed to be quiet with extremely low dust. They're also very gentle on the iron discs. As an added bonus, they're also dirt cheap! The fronts are $200.58 and the rears are $163.33.
Also remember that we subsidize the price of the first set of brake pads with a brake kit purchase, so the Ferodo track pads would be $250 for the front set, and $200 for the rear set. When combined with a set of road pads, you can have your cake and eat it too...a world-class set of track pads and mild mannered street pads with our system, all for under $1,000.
***A note on brake dust- The primary determinant of brake dust with iron discs is pad choice. Most of the brake dust you see with iron brakes is not the pad material, but rather the iron disc face being scraped off by the pads and deposited all over your wheels and car. If you use a less abrasive brake pad, it won't scrape as much of the disc face off, and you won't have as much brake dust.***
Below are some 991 GT3, GT3RS, and GT2RS client reviews and impressions of our AP Racing by Essex Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kit that I've aggregated from our blog. Again, these are just 991 GT car owners, and only a sampling of our overall owners' group. I've listed the blog post title, a short quote from the owner, and hyperlink to the full review/pics/video. Thanks for looking.
Another 991 GT3 owner waxes poetic on AP Racing Radi-CAL Brakes!
"I will tell anyone who listens about this setup. Incredible."
Watch our AP Radi-CAL Brake Kit in action on a 991 GT3 RS
"In other news, the AP calipers continue to impress. The new 3.12 brake pads are VERY consistent. They feel the exact same at the start of the session as the do at the end. Very easy to manage. Very consistent. Pedal feels the same every time. Love them."
Customer Perfects his Dream Porsche GT3RS with our Radi-CAL Brake Kit!
“Would I do it again? In a heartbeat. If I buy another car, it will be with the irons, and I’ll swap them out for the Radi-Cal, without a doubt. Dream perfected.”
Porsche 991 GT3 Customer Reviews our Radi-CAL Competition BBK after First Track Day
“The pedal feel over the ceramics is unbelievable. I drove the ceramics for nearly an hour at my last event in order to heat them up for some feel and that was still nowhere close to this setup from the start.”
Looking for a better braking system upgraded to my GT3RS that I track 15-20 days a year.
Really looking between the Surface Transform CCB, the PFC Track Day pkg, or the AP-Racing brake kit. Price for all three is about the same at around 14k, I am running Girodisc with Ferodo 3.12’s and I feel satisfied with them but still want an upgrade. More biased towards the PFC or ST…
If anyone have/are running any of these systems or have anything to share, feel free to comment on the post!
I have run Pagid/Girodisc with stock calipers on my 2015 C2S and then the AP Racing road brake kit. The Girodisc/Pagid setup was much better than stock, significant improvement. The AP Racing kit is next level, particularly with pedal feel and consistency. The pedal feel, I think, is due to less caliper flex, it is solid but easily modulated, and super precise. I have DS 1.11 pads for the track and really like those, good life, no fade, and consistent use. I'm at 6 track days on that setup so far and have seen 2 mm of pad wear on the DS 1.11s, which is remarkable to me. Also they aren't that bad on the street, although have DS 2500s to swap in. Not inexpensive, but an excellent product.
Edit: Whoops! Realized I was over in the GT3 forum (I have a handshake deal on one), but I think my analysis still holds true--and the AP Racing kits my buddies have on their GT3s come with similar reviews.
Our team just got back from spending some time with our clients at the VIR Chin Track Days event on Monday and Tuesday. We had a fresh crop of customer 991 GT3/RS out there running both variants of our AP Racing 2-piece disc and our complete Radi-CAL Brake Kits. More pics on the Essex Blog: https://www.essexparts.com/essex-par...hin-track-days
Lizard Green 3RS wearing our complete kit:
Riviera Blue (I think) GT3 wearing our 2-piece PCCB iron replacement discs:
Here's a GT3 with our AP J Hook 2-piece replacements for the standard 380mm discs:
Our friends from GMP Performance were out lending a hand as well, this time to a gorgeous white 991 3RS:
Some other non-Porsche big boys out there sharing in the fun...
R35 GT-R with all sorts of aero (and presumably boost!):
Serious **** on this thang!
ZL1 1LE representing American Muscle:
...and no track day is complete without the obligatory Corvettes:
I must take issue with the statement regarding heat and especially 'completely opposite to carbon ceramics which repels/rejects heat so that all heat from braking transfers to the pads, pistons, fluid'
ST rotors do not act in this manner. The hundreds of interlinked threads to which we have attached carbon atoms at very high temperature creates a 3d matrix throughout the entire rotor construction. This construction allows a rapid absorption of heat debunking the age old myth of carbon ceramics being poor when cold and equally allows heat to be speedily wicked away through the cnc machined vents designed for each and every application.
It is not repelling or rejecting it is simply a far more efficient management of heat, far beyond the capability of any iron rotor.
The ST rotor runs around 550 deg F cooler than other carbon ceramics as a result. By all means promote an iron brake package but let's ensure the information given regarding a different, industry leading brake technology is accurate.
This thread turned into vendor promotion thread, i would like to see a pro do a back to back test on track of all these products with scientific data being pulled.
Everyone has different skills levels and only knowing a car being pushed to the limit with a capable driver who's real feedback is what i would prefer. Won't happen unfortunately unless there is a shop who has all the varieties installed and all at the track together.
I must take issue with the statement regarding heat and especially 'completely opposite to carbon ceramics which repels/rejects heat so that all heat from braking transfers to the pads, pistons, fluid'
ST rotors do not act in this manner. The hundreds of interlinked threads to which we have attached carbon atoms at very high temperature creates a 3d matrix throughout the entire rotor construction. This construction allows a rapid absorption of heat debunking the age old myth of carbon ceramics being poor when cold and equally allows heat to be speedily wicked away through the cnc machined vents designed for each and every application.
It is not repelling or rejecting it is simply a far more efficient management of heat, far beyond the capability of any iron rotor.
The ST rotor runs around 550 deg F cooler than other carbon ceramics as a result. By all means promote an iron brake package but let's ensure the information given regarding a different, industry leading brake technology is accurate.
Thanks!
I don't know all the technical aspects of how these things work but what you explained here makes sense.
I have the ST rotors on my GT3 and just recently put them on my R8.
They perform exceptionally well and dissipate heat very effectively.
Honestly I respected the Essex Racing brake kits and I am sure they do well.
But to post info that disparages the ST rotors without actual facts turns me off to the posts made.
While regular oem CCB rotors PERHAPS have the characteristics of what they said, do you have actual facts about the ST rotors?
Its a shame they have to post info like that and try to take away peoples confidence in the technology that Surface Transforms is using.
Steels are tried and true in many respects and no doubt the Essex are great. But technology improves on things and that is what I think is happening with the ST setup.
Heck, the oem CCB rotors have also advanced and improved over time. Its a shame that the ST rotors are not what Porsche and others put on their cars from the factory.
Likely the reputation of ceramic rotors would be very different if that were the case.
Trust me, the ST rotors are awesome!
I have no dog in this fight and could care less what anyone decides to use.
I am just a satisfied ST owner stating what I have experienced with the ST rotors.
I have no experience with Essex so I cant comment on them. I was going to put them on my C7 Grand Sport but I sold that before doing any upgrades. So I am not trying to tell people not to use Essex either.
But the ST rotors deserve close consideration in the thread posters choice!
Regarding the post I made, only the first two sentences in the post referenced ST rotors, and not in a negative way. I simply pointed out that two of the products the OP was looking into are similarly priced yet in are two categories of brake upgrades. I apologize if I should have put more space between the following sentence and more periods between words to make it clearer that the rest of the post was to point out the values of having a well-developed full brake kit, and not to trash talk ST. I am sorry that it was interpreted that way. Personally, I have looked into ST rotors and are impressed by them. After some consideration I ultimately went with the full PFC brake kit because I wanted to upgrade the calipers as well. When I commented in that post about repelling/rejecting heat the specific thought that was in my mind was the OEM PCCB. The fact remains that carbon-ceramic rotors in general do not absorb heat the way that steel rotors do(some do transfer heat better than others), and that the act of braking is converting slowing down a mass in motion in to heat energy. It takes a certain amount of heat energy to slow down a vehicle from 150 to 50mph with in a certain distance. A rotor that gets less hot to the same braking event(without additional external cooling factors) has to direct that heat energy somewhere. Fortunately for GT car owners the surrounding OEM brake parts have higher tolerance to heat than on most other brands of cars. For those who cares to see the energy mathematics formulas and conversion details, this link directs to an engineering journal- https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...E%B5%20p%20Fig.
Not all carbon-ceramic rotors are designed equally, some prioritizes their design for motorsports more than others. I am 100% for certain that ST rotors are motorsports prioritized. There was never a doubt there. Personally, I want more than a rotor upgrade. I want big fat forged monoblock calipers, with large pistons, that houses thick pads as well. To each their own.
Last edited by Tom@TPC Racing; 06-22-2021 at 05:35 PM.
Please keep in mind, as many of you already know my position on this topic; the chopped-fiber ceramic or PCCB rotors are not something I would want to use extensively on the track, and furthermore, in the past almost every single time one of my clients began tracking their GT Porsche we removed their PCCBs and replaced them with Brembo Type-III or Type-V rotors. As much as it was the "right" move with regards to costs, my caveat was always, "As far as, brake fading, weight, and overall handling the PCCBs are noticeably better...if they were only more durable, resurface-able, and more cost effective to replace..."
Somewhere along in reading this thread I believe someone asked about "real world" data. Recently one of my clients (991.2 GT3RS) called me in amazement because another one of my clients (991.1 GT3) had changed to ST rotors and was now able to brake later, harder, and more consistently than him. He's made the decision to go with ST rotors as soon as his iron rotors are garbage. Why ST rotors? Well the list of reasons has been so eloquently put by @pridanc but, in actually the biggest reason is besides me having them (ST Rotors) on my 997 GT3RS and absolutely loving them, my client was able to "test drive" them on the track and is now a believer. Oh and by the way, my client with 991.1 GT3 with ST rotors was 2.8 seconds per lap faster at Sebring vs. when he ran with iron rotors (not stock).
With their initial cost, the ability to be refurbished, the unbelievably low cost to have them refurbished (further lowering their cost basis), their durability, lowered-unsprung-rotating weight, and their incredible performance, imho ST rotors can't be beat. I realize the term is over-used; however, ST rotors are truly a "game changer."
Regarding the calipers, well let's just say most on this platform will be hard pressed (no pun intended) to notice the difference. Then again, if you're so inclined, then by all means.
This thread is clown world.........................................tires stops cars. Period.
If two identical GT3 RS have exactly the same tires, same compound, size and width - they will stop in the same distance if they are travelling at the same speed irrespective whether they have Brembo, AP or what ever fantasy brake set up is being discussed - the applied brake torque is determined by your leg.
This is because the coefficient of friction at the contact patch determines stopping distance
d= v^2/2ug d= stopping distance, v = velocity, u = coefficient of friction and g = acceleration due to gravity = constant.
I frequent Sebring at least once a month and have always used OEM PCCB's with the Pagid RSC1 pad for the past year. A buddy of mine gave me his used set of Giro's and I put on new Pagid pads. Some know that I might be pushing my RS to the limits at Sebring with street tires and slicks at times. My conclusion was almost zero difference, i preferred the pedal feel on my OEM PCCB's as I a use to just smashing the brake pedal super hard into T7 and modulate the pedal coming hard into T17. I noticed that the steels are great and cost effective for rotor replacement but the pads will die in a weekend if pushed hard.
Far too much maintenance to keep steels going as Pads are almost 1k and max is 1.5 weekends, my OEM PCCB rotors on my last car lasted 30+ days and still looked brand new when I sold it, we just kept flipping pads around side to side and replaced at 50% wear. Pad wear was over 4 full weekends and the same price as steel pads.
I have no skin in this game as I haven't tried ST's but looking to try a used set before I commit to the larger $ associated with them, all I can say is steels are great and modulate well on slower turns but the OEM PCCB's are awesome and that's why I would like to see how further the ST's go. Turn 7 those who know it, braking can be done at the 3rd cone with both OEM PBBC's and Giro's with good pads on street tires, not this Ferrodo or RayB crappy pads as ive tried them and they don't work at the limit (beginner DE Pads). Have to admit so many sponsors pushing their stuff which is fine, but most of the pad material they push is just useless IMO.
I would be happy to do a back to back test weekend on any setup for the sponsors on here, we rent Sebring privately quite a few days of the year and happy to bring a real pro who can demonstrate the differences to us all with data?
06-07-2021, 04:36 PM
