3-Pedals

Recently I was very fortunate to drive a 991.3 Speedster. I am always chasing this manual GT3 itch and while I am in the market for one, I thought I'd give speedster a try. The prices on them seems to have tanked quite a bit these last few months and I was very close to a pretty good deal although because of the test drive, I basically walked out in the last minute. After reading various reviews and watching pretty much every video of it out there, I was very excited going into the test drive. I left the test drive a bit underwhelmed but also observed things that I'm not sure if they are discussed as frequently:

- The very first thing that caught my attention was the amount of squeaks and rattles the top makes when its in closed position. I drove convertible cars before but this was something else. The entire mechanism where it meets the windows were rattling and making noises as you drove. You didnt need to go through pot holes or anything to hear this.
- The sound of the engine was very underwhelming. I dont know if its because of the 992 GT3 OPF exhaust that causes this or the extra cover that sits on the engine bay area that mutes the sound or a bit of both. Car sounded nothing like a GT3 to me. The sound below 5000 was very quiet and past 7000 you could hear the GT3 character but none of that mechanical, buzz saw noise we all came love particularly between 8000-9000.
- Then there was the gearing and manual transmission. Maybe I need to stop chasing the manual GT3 after all. In theory and in principal this is a very engaging drive. It should again in theory be intoxicating, but for some reason (and this isnt unique to the speedster), I find myself really unimpressed with the manual. The gear throws are too long, the gear shifter has a lot of play (to my liking), the clutch is really light and if you are not really changing gears at higher rpms, lower rpm gear changes - specifically in 1st gear, is really not smooth. No matter how I press the clutch pedal, if I am shifting to 2nd at 3000 rpm, there is a lurch forward where the momentum of the car is cut so abruptly. Then there is rpms dropping too quickly issue that is specific to this car and probably 992 GT3. If you dont have auto blip on, this thing is really not very easy (and enjoyable) to shift smoothly but drive aggressively. The higher the rpms, the faster revs drop. So if I am trying to upshift at 8000 rpm, I have a lot less time to say do the same at 5000 rpm. And I have a little over 120,000 miles of manual transmission (all in sports cars) under my belt in the last 5 years so I am no foreigner to manual transmissions. Its almost like the engine wasn't designed for this transmission - well not almost like, we all know it wasn't.
- While downshifting, manual rev matching doesn't really work half the time. Sometimes ECU will limit the revs and you need to literally double throttle blip but the moment is pretty much ruined.
- Specific to speedster, I really disliked the relaxed steering and suspension. Way too slack. My TTS has more direct steering and better road holding manners (in the form of suspension NVH) that give you more feedback.
- Lastly and this to me is the main problem with manual transmission, the longer gears of the manual transmission absolutely hinders the low end pick up. I have driven the speedster back to back with my GT3RS and when I stab the throttle in my GT3RS at 3000 rpm and do the same in speedster, there is so much more torque and instantaneous response/pick up in my car that it completely changes the way the car feels. Speedster really needs to be 1000-1200 rpm above where my RS needs to be to have the same torque pick up. This got me thinking and probably in a race track, its a non issue. But in a backroad driving, you really feel no power in low rpms with the manual car.

There is a lot of nostalgia with this car but its not fun and becomes frustrating if you want to drive the GT3 the way a GT3 is meant to be driven. I dont like auto blips so maybe thats an issue. Because if I have the auto blip on, neither the revs dropping nor the lurch forward in 1st gear become an issue. But then I am just kidding myself when I say I am driving manual transmission. The whole point is to heel and toe and do this yourself.

As a car though, I know this will upset people, I so did not see the point of speedster. Not for $320-350k. It sounds nothing like a GT3, doesn't really drive much like GT3, it does look like a GT3 from the front and has an engine that new GT3s have.

I wish Porsche made a car that had the steering responsiveness and chassis of the GT3RS, looks of the GT3RS, engine tone and exhaust characteristics of the GT3RS, but came with manual. I'd still have an issue with the gear ratios but those other things could make up for it. There is something about the RS that makes it so much more rewarding to me. Its rawness, eagerness, agility, the mechanical noises it makes. I wish it came with manual!

CRex

Thank you for an honest opinion.

I was not particularly impressed with the drive myself. The experience came much closer to my AMG GTC Roadster than I thought it would of a Porsche. Luxury, with some pretense of sportiness. I didn't feel much communication with the car.

Maybe the experience would be a bit better with the roof up, when one might better pickup the mechanical cues.

Tactility wise I felt the car was clearly a notch down from the 911R, closer to a Carrera with stick shift. Most definitely not in the same sentence (even same page) with a GT3 so let's not even try.

PAG priced and sized the production run of the speedster to perfection and the secondary market took everything hook bait and sinker. The "greatness" of this speedster unfortunately has been a myth propagated by the same folks who chased the dealers and fed their ADMs...

rk-d

You can always make your own manual RS: https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...but-i-did.html

Interesting thoughts on the Speedster. Have you driven a manual 991.2 GT3? That would be a good frame of reference.

3-Pedals

I have driven 991.2 GT3 before, a few times. Revs dropping, ECU limiting the throttle blip, the sound issue I highlight in the OP (and obviously rattles) were not issues in the GT3 but the tall gearing and the rate at which throttle response turns into torque at lower RPMs was definitely an issue. The shifter is definitely not that great in my opinion. It feels like its going to snap in half with hard shifting. Lots of play and not very precise. Clutch was also really light. The tremec transmission my GT350 is worlds apart from this Porsche manual. I dont think this manual in the GT3 received the same level of treatment PDK-S did from their engineering teams in terms of precision, performance, and durability. It was more like something they slapped on because everyone wanted a manual.

But of all these issues above the one that to me is the worst is the torque down low. Yes its an N/A car and particularly this engine has its torque way up top. The new Z06 or the GT350 are also high revving N/As but their max torque is 2000 rpm lower. GT3 is particularly weak on this regard. In the case of manual, the longer gear ratios in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd really give the car a slower/less torque feel if you are in 3000 rpm or around that range. Its really sluggish down there where as my GT3RS 3000 rpm has perfect amount of torque.

rk-d

Sounds like you drove a jacked up GT3. None of those things re: feel of the GT3 manual have been remotely my experience. Not even close. I installed a Numeric shifter which tightened up the throws and mechanical feel, but the OEM is still an exceptional feeling MT (and I’ve owned several).

Not sure what to say about focusing on the performance of a GT3 at 3k RPM. That’s not really relevant for a lot of people who like these cars, but of course you’re entitled to your prerogatives.

It’s also difficult to compare a MT car to PDK in terms of power delivery.

With all due respect, it doesn’t sound like the GT3 is for you. I’d cut my losses and find something else. The Sport Classic would probably have been the perfect car for you.

3-Pedals

Have you owned or driven a .2 GT3RS?

rk-d

No I haven’t. I don’t doubt it has a different feel from the GT3 that you prefer. But of course, you don’t have a manual option there, so it is what it is.

Just sounds like you’re not particularly enamored with the GT3, which is fine.

Like I said - I’m not disputing your thoughts on the GT3 powerband, but I don’t think your experience with the MT shifter feel is indicative of how GT3 normally feels.

3-Pedals

I have driven a manual GT3 before, several times in fact. These observations I made isnt the first time specific to this speedster. The feel of the shifter, clutch pedal, engine power band, tall gears have been common in every GT3 I drove. No I dont think I drove broken GT3s.

Here I even mentioned it here : https://rennlist.com/forums/991-gt3-...ispreloading=1

Every time I mention this, most responses say “I dont feel that”. Well maybe those people didnt have the same baseline expectations and to them all those aspects are non issue.

Steering is another thing. RS is a much more direct car and the throttle feels almost like an electric car with instant pick up regardless of how low you are in RPM band.

Yes, I wish they made a manual RS in this body style (really dislike 992).

rk-d

Again….not sure why you’re even bothering looking at the GT3. You clearly don’t like it. Doesn’t hurt my feelings, but it just seems pretty obvious.

For frame of reference I’ve had a SSK and RS shifter in my 993 and I owned an S2000 so I know what a good shifter feels like. The GT3 is an excellent MT, full stop.

You disagree, that’s fine. But your experience is an outlier.

GT325

I have thousands of miles on a Tremec 6060 and while it is an outstanding manual box it is not in the same league as the 6 speed in either my 991.2 gt3 or 718 spyder. It is most noticeable when going directly from one car to the other. In isolation all three boxes are fantastic.

3-Pedals

Totally different gearbox that tremec. Try Tremec TR-3160. Its a gearbox that was designed for the car.

As much as my views of the sloppy shifter may appear like a deal breaker, they aren't. I know numeric shifter will make it better to an extent. The clutch pedal is also not a problem (but i find it awkward as this from a GT3 as hardcore as this, you expect a matching clutch pedal). The problem really is how the car feels. Thats the steering feedback/directness as well as the throttle responsiveness/engine character. You have to have the rpms much higher in the manual GT3 than a PDK-S RS to get the same tactile feedback/response and you have less room to stretch her legs because of how much faster you are going in each gear (not practical in public roads). In an RS, our redlines come much quicker. In the manual, they take longer and you are noticeably going faster by redline and mathematically speaking you are spending more time at over the speed limit which makes you uncomfortable.

I clearly love manuals and this is why I keep going after a manual GT3. But I find myself in a dilemma. Part of my brain thinks like this : "I love my current RS so much that I want the same car but with a manual transmission" but then when I go and drive the manual GT3 : "this isnt the same car with just a different transmission, it feels and drives like a completely different car". Part of that is the manual transmission gear ratios but the other part is GT3 isnt really tuned/configured as direct as an RS. So maybe this is unachievable and maybe I need to come to terms with it and accept the car as is.

Bruce911_

I owned both a 991.1 and 991.2 RS. I sold the last one to get my Touring. I think the transmission is excellent and so is the shifter. I get what you mean as far as the sturdiness of the shifter, but it hasn’t been a problem so far. I enjoy my Touring more than the RS’s I had. More involvement and I like the ride better for the street. I’m very happy with my choice and have not looked back.

Bruce911_

Also as far as the torque I think it’s very similar if not the same as between the RS and GT3. They are higher RPM cars by design. If that’s not what you like, then maybe a turbo car is what you are looking for.

3-Pedals

But that's not what I was saying. I am very well aware of what they are. I actually have a TTS right now that I really dislike and am selling to get a GT3. I totally dislike the gobs of torque down low cars. I think what I am trying to say isn't coming across correctly.

There is more engine torque/pick up speed/throttle responsiveness at lower RPMs in the RS than there is in GT3. This is most likely due to taller gearing of the GT3 but also larger diameter tires in the GT3RS and shorter PDK-S ratios creating a multiplicative effect of more torque in lower RPMs. This isnt in my brain, i.e. I am just making it up. It's basic physics. If you drive these cars back to back as I have a number of times, its hard not to notice this difference. If you only drive a GT3, that'll become your baseline and you'll get used to it. It is what it is, nothing we can do about it. I am just sharing my experiences in driving these cars back to back. Doesn't make the GT3 a bad car. I am most likely going to buy one regardless to go along with my RS.

rk-d

Yeah an RS is an RS. You will have to be ok with that.

I think the Numeric shifter would resolve whatever qualms you have about shifter feel. Insert “rifle-bolt” cliche here, but it’s really true. I’ve had guys who know GT3 manuals pretty well who felt the difference just rowing it in the parking lot. The whole thing is machined aluminum and brass. Very direct and solid.

Re: steering feel, I can see your point though I am satisfied with the stock set up. My 993 has better steering, but it’s hydraulic and effectively has an 993RS suspension. Not sure if a more aggressive alignment and possibly lowering the GT3 a little on the coilovers would make it feel a bit more direct. I can say that upgrading to BBS wheels, which are lighter than OEM, did make a positive difference there.