74goldtarga

Replaced stock lines with Spiegler 6 line kit. System was opened and drained as a result. I have done brake fluid bleeds and flushes with previous cars but never starting with a mostly empty (full of air) system. I use a Motive power bleeder. I filled the brake fluid resevoir on the car to the fill line and add approximately 750mL of fresh fluid. I then bled each caliper RR -> LR -> RF -> LF, at each caliper I bled outside then inside. I bled each caliper for awhile after the absence of air bubbles was noted - bled through pretty much all of the 750mL from the power bleeder resevoir. I started the car and stepped on the brake pedal - first press on the brake goes to the floor as I have come to expect from previous brake work - pumped up the pedal but it never got firm at all. Going to go through the process again but I am curious if there is some step I am missing due to the system starting with a large amount of air. Thanks for any help.

GrantG

Sorry to hear. It's not necessary to introduce much air into the system when changing brake lines. The trick is to have the brake pedal partially depressed when disconnecting the old lines (then the remaining fluid doesn't drain out the open connection). You press the pedal partially while bleeding one of the bleeder valves (you don't want to create brake pressure by partially pressing the pedal with the system closed) and steadily brace the pedal in its partially depressed position with a broom handle between the brake pedal and seat base or something.

Of course the new lines will have air rather than fluid, but you want to keep fluid in the resrvoir, master cylinder, and the hard lines, to the extent possible.

You want to flush the system after the line change (new fluid pumping after old) - never a good idea to drain it. I usually use a turkey baster to suck out as much old fluid from the reservoir as possible and then fill with fresh before using Motiv.

If you have introduced a bunch of air, it might be necessary to electronically bleed the ABS system (there is a function for this on the PWIIS or some aftermarket OBD computers).

74goldtarga

Thanks GrantG. I went back to all 4 corners and bled some more with no air. If I had been smart I would have asked this question BEFORE I drained the system. I don’t have PIWIS but I probably have a friend who does. Master cylinder was basically empty so I think the system was full of air. I assumed that by using the power bleeder and cycling the brake pedal I would be able to clear all the air from the system - maybe not.

on further investigation it looks like I need to electronically bleed the ABS system. I’m going to see if a local friend has PIWIS or icarsoft to bleed the ABS. Starting to wish i had paid to have this done! But I will learn something in the process which is part of the experience.

Ark20

Hey there. Sounds like your brake fluid level fell below the minimum in the reservoir and you introduced air in ABS. I had a similar issue when I switched base calipers to S calipers on my 991.1 c2. I used POR II v3 for ABS bleed to get air out of the ABS. You should be able to find the post via searching my name. Good luck!

452gt3

Easy process with ICARSOFT makes it a good investment for future for about $150.

Awm3awm5

Can the icarsoft por II do this?

Ark20

Do what? For ABS you need V3.

991carreradriver

FWIW after the fact, when I changed out the OEM lines to Spiegler SS and rebuilt the calipers, I used rubber brake line plugs from Amazon to plug the lines. It was a very cost efficient tool. As others have said, the iCarsoft v3 will permit the ABS flush.

74goldtarga

I ended up getting it done using the iCarsoft. I just had to be patient to run through the whole routine. A tip would be that you need to have fluid bleeding at each caliper (LR, LF, RF, RR) and the right side calipers take longer, BUT, you don't have to run the bleeder full open or it will take like 2L of fluid, with it about half flow you can get the job done with maybe just under 0.5L fluid.

Plugs would have been smart, I now know that and would certainly use them if I had known they existed - no reason to drain the system entirely unless that is the goal. Just replace caliper or lines with the system plugged and flush afterwards.

BCgeorgia

@74goldtarga - great to hear that you were able to use the abs activation feature with icarsoft por v3. There's mixed success with people being able to get it to work on the forums.

74goldtarga

Just have to trust it (icarsoft por3 routine) and be prepared. Plenty of fluid, maintain pressure in motive power bleeder throughout and between corners, don’t bleed too fast. It feels like you are going to burn up the ABS pump as it runs awhile but I guess it’s okay. I have a firm pedal and was able to brake into ABS without trouble on the street last week.

RennPart

My method-

Swap lines, you will loose some fluid but not all of it.

Motive power bleeder- pump brake pedal about halway 6-10 time per bleeder with the motive hooked up.

Done.

The times I've used the PIWIS to bleed the ABS system has resulted in issues.

If you let the system drain so much that the ABS system is emptying then your best guaranteed bed (albeit redneck) is to get on a loose surface road and activate the ABS. That way you actually know its going to work. Nothing worse than coming into the braking zone off the VIR backstretch - hitting the brakes at the arrow (spec boxster) and having an ABS lock up. Ask me how I know!

--Aaron

74goldtarga

I should say that due to my screw-up that I ended up basically doing the whole process a couple of times and then finally used a whole additional bottle of SRF (so like a $400 fluid replacement with me doing the labor!). I then really pushed the brakes on the street - I have a couple spots where you can safely get going pretty fast and then brake to a stop. I got down into ABS multiple times getting some heat into the system and it behaved fine. I could theoretically bleed the system one more time but it seems like overkill at this point - I appreciate the insight RennPart.

BCgeorgia

@RennPart So I'm no expert by any means, but do you really think activating the abs in a closed system is going to flush air out of the ABS system? I imagine air might move in a direction when it's activated, but wouldn't it just move right back once it de activates?

RennPart

I just want to make sure the ABS is functioning properly. Out of all of the cars I've bleed brakes on I have not had an issue with a soft pedal because I didn't flush the ABS system.

One trick with bleeding the system if you've rebuilt calipers or drained the entire system for an extended period is to use some cheap DOT 4 from your local auto parts store that way you're not concerned about using too much expensive SRF. I'll use 2 quart bottles of the cheap fluid then use the "good stuff" after I'm confident I have a firm pedal. Of course, I suck the reservoir dry then refill and re-bleed with SRF etc.

--Aaron