Fastboy

I’m coming into second year of gt3 991.2 ownership and having tracked the car in 2023, feeling “the bug” to do more this summer.
I’m still in the novice stage so I’m riding with an instructor on the Mosport / Cdn Tire GP track. I know at this stage I’m not fast enough to need a 3-point seatbelt but still think as I progress it might be good idea eventually. In Canada the insurance companies won’t insure if you have a roll cage. So my question is- does anyone know an alternative way to instal 3 point belts aka no cage needed? I’m aware you legally need to keep and use the stock seatbelt in car for public roads in Canada
I have the Porsche carbon bucket seats.

parkerfe

Modern Porsches all come with 3-point seat belts.

Larry Cable

I suspect you mean either 4-point or 6 point ... https://www.schrothracing.com/item/p...-seats/porsche or https://www.schrothracing.com/item/p...fi-2x2/porsche

you would require a harness bar to attach the shoulder belts to, something like a Brey-Krause.

you may also need a sub-belt bar to attach the sub belts.

lastly I believe you would be well advised to wear a HANS using these belts to avoid neck injuries in the event of an accident.

(note you need to deal with the lack of a sub belt cutout in the LWBS which is why a 4 point exists)

needmoregarage

PCA requires a head/neck restraint device to be used whenever a person is using a harness that goes over both shoulders. Check safety requirements of other clubs you run with as some may also have this requirement.

KOAN

It might be worth it to find out what the insurance companies mean by "roll cage."
There is a difference between a full "roll cage" , a 1/2 cage, sometimes referred to as a roll bar, and a harness bar, which only serves as an anchor for the shoulder bar, but does not have any roof support in case of a rollover.
As has been mentioned above, you are interested in a 5 or 6 pt belt system, not a 3 pt., which is the stock belt. If you use a 5/6 pt belt, you will need a HANS or equivalent. There are also 4 pt belts made, which do not have the anti-submarine belt. Most clubs in the US, AFAIK, do not allow 4 pts. They are much easier to install. If you have LWBS in your GT3, then the hole already exists in the driver's side seat to facilitate the antisubmarine portion of the 5/6 pt. You will need to get a bar to install under the driver's seat to attach it to (although there are alternatives, I would recommend this route.) In US spec GT3s, the passenger seat does not have the cut out for the sub belt, but in Europe, the seats do have the cutout. You'll have to check to see what you've got. If you don't have LWBS, and you want to get 5/6 pt belts, you should probably get aftermarket race seats.
I would recommend against a harness bar. With an attached 5 or 6 pt. belt, in the event you have a rollover, you will be held upright by the belts, but will have no protection from the roof collapsing and you getting crushed.
Most people who have street cars and decide to get 5/6 pt belts get a 1/2 cage. They allow you to use a 5/6 pt belt while providing significant protection in case of a rollover. Many good brands are out there...GMG, CMS, Cantrell, DAS to name a few off the top of my head (no pun intended.) In the US, having this does not preclude insurance.
In the US, a full cage makes a car not street legal. It provides the best driver protection in a racing environment, but for street driving, it exposes you to head injury unless you are wearing a helmet. They also make entering and leaving the car difficult, and may require you to get a removable steering wheel to facilitate egress.
I hope this answers some of your questions.

needmoregarage

I would add to @KOAN’s comments:

- any belt system that goes over BOTH shoulders (including 4 pt) requires a head/neck restraint with PCA, and possibly other clubs. Even if NOT required, it is such an important safety item that it should be used regardless of safety requirements IMO

- BOTH seats must offer a similar restraint system. Since you will have an instructor riding right-seat, you’d need to have both seats offer the same system. See the minimum standard (pasted below). This means if your passenger seat doesn’t have a pass-through cut-out for the sub-belt (if not using 4pt), you’ll need to cut the seat-bottom and create a pass-through hole in the cushion.

Note that harness systems have an expiration date (unlike 3pt OEM safety belt systems). If you purchase harness systems be certain to inquire about the date. Some used systems could be out-of-date (usually advertised as such but not always). New systems should be priced accordingly if you lose X-year(s) of use because of the date. See the minimum standard below.

Be familiar with club rules for any organization with whom you do HPDE, as rules can be different.

Below is copied/pasted from PCA HPDE Minimum Standards:

f) Equal Restraints
Both the driver Entrant and passenger Entrant must have and use the same type of restraint system. For
instance, if a harness is used on the driver’s seat, a harness must be used in the passenger seat.
The harness manufacturer and number of attachment points do not need to match; five, six or seven point
systems are considered equal.

g) Harness Systems
If the Entrant chooses to install a driving harnesses of five or more attachment points, several changes to
the automobile must be made to create a safe occupant restraint system. The systems must follow these
standards:
• SFI or FIA-approved competition harnesses of five or more attachment points are required and must be
properly mounted in accordance with the manufacturer’s specifications and instructions, including
harness attachment points and shoulder strap mounting. No Y-type shoulder harnesses are allowed.
(Note: See four-point exception below.)
• Harnesses may not be mounted to the seat or seat rail. Mounting must be to the chassis backed by large
diameter washers (if stock mounts are not used) or to the roll bar. No two harness straps may be
attached to a single mounting bolt.
• Harnesses bear a date of expiration. The SFI standard requires seat belt to be replaced every two years
based on date of manufacture. The FIA standard allows the seat belt to be used until an expiration date
at the end of the fifth year after the year of manufacture. It is left to the Entrant’s discretion as to
whether the strap material or harness should be replaced more frequently than required by SFI or FIA
Standards.
• Harnesses must be used in conjunction with a seat that has the supplied routing holes for the shoulder
and antisubmarine belts. (An additional Standard is listed specifically for Porsche GT Seats below.)
• The Entrant should be aware that the addition of such a seat and harness system results in the occupant
being fastened upright in the vehicle. Therefore, in order to have a COMPLETE SYSTEM, a properly
padded roll bar or roll cage is recommended and an approved head and neck restraint device is
required. A head and neck restraint device certified as meeting the standards of either SFI 38.1 or FIA
8858 or its successor is required. The use of such a harness system without roll protection and a head
and neck restraint device may result in an unsafe environment and is not a COMPLETE SYSTEM. Roll
bars or cages and their installation must meet PCA Club Racing Standards.
When using a head and neck restraint device, it is recommended that one follow the SFI Recertification
process for the head and neck restraint device. The instructions for this can be found on the device.
Additionally, it is recommended that the straps be replaced every five years.
Four-point systems are not allowed in Porsches because of the integrated headrest supplied by the factory,
EXCEPT as noted below. In addition to the standard SFI and/or FIA-approved five- and/or six-point system, a
four-point system is allowed in non-Porsches that meet the following requirements:
• Meets the Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 209.
• Attaches to the factory seat belt mounting points.
• Each belt is designed to work in a specific vehicle and that vehicle tag must be attached to the belt
system.
Four Point Belt Exception: Schroth has developed a four-point harness for specific vehicles. These vehicles
must be fitted with the original factory seats with which the cars and belts were tested. The belts must also
be installed per the Schroth instructions. The belts are Federal Motor Vehicle Standard 209, and as such
they are deemed street legal and approved by federal seat belt safety regulations. These belts also have
labeling confirming the intended use for these specified vehicle models. They are ONLY allowed in the
vehicle with which they were tested.
Current information from Schroth may be found here: https://www.schrothracing.com/item/schroth-
quickfit/].

I hope this info is helpful. Best of luck!

One caveat: the above info is from the PCA.org web site and it is marked “2023”. I’m going to check to ensure it’s the most recent version, and I’ll report back once I get an answer.
EDIT: the web master has not changed the date yet from 2023 to 2024. The Minimum Standards on PCA.org are current (despite the “2023” label, which will be updated at some point).

KOAN

Also note that the Schroth 4 pt as described above as the Four Point Belt Exception ( https://www.schrothracing.com/item/rallye-4-asm/) has a unique system that cannot be used with a HANS. In the event of an impact, one of the shoulder belts elongates, causing your upper body to rotate forward slightly, thus preventing you to submarine.

needmoregarage

In this case, would a Simpson Hybrid device make the most sense? I’d still be a bit leery of having the weight of a helmet on my head, and assuming an impact comes from just the right direct to allow me to rotate and take advantage of the airbag system.

Fastboy

Wow- lots of info here thanks. I’ll speak with my mechanic in the spring- seems like it may be too much hassle unless I end up tracking frequently!

KOAN

I have a "normal" HANS device for when I drive my car, or instruct in a car with a roll bar and 6 pts., and a Simpson Hybrid for when I instruct in a car with 3 pts.

ldamelio

NEVER look at track safety as too much of a hassle. If you hit the wall, it does not go easy on you just because you are tracking infrequently.