Laguna Seca -- sound, times, tires, alignment
09-24-2014, 09:14 PM
#46
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
I thought you might say that, and I regretted not being more complete in my last post. Let me start off by saying, you are correct, in qualifying trim, with the right driver and under the right conditions, a 997.2 GT3 cup can do 28s.
My purpose for posting times was to try to give the original poster the most comparable information I could find. I intentionally excluded qualifying times. In race qualifying, you set the car up for one lap exactly. That includes softer tires, possibly a different alignment, minimum weight, etc etc. They often even use cheater parts as scrutiny is generally less and the benefits of qualifying up front in a spec series are immeasurable. (Note: While softer tires may not be allowed, each race slick has one really fast lap in it, after which the grip is less. In qualifying, you get that one lap in during the session. If you have to run that same set of tires in the race, it won't still have that same super hot lap in it.)
When Motortrend or others take a street car to the track and do hot laps, they don't do any of that. While they are trying for the best lap they can muster, they drive the street car as is, set up to drive 1000s and 1000s of miles relatively trouble free, with tires that are intended to last a long time (they don't have one super hot lap in them). Very different from a qualifying setup that is designed solely for one fast lap.
My purpose for posting times was to try to give the original poster the most comparable information I could find. I intentionally excluded qualifying times. In race qualifying, you set the car up for one lap exactly. That includes softer tires, possibly a different alignment, minimum weight, etc etc. They often even use cheater parts as scrutiny is generally less and the benefits of qualifying up front in a spec series are immeasurable. (Note: While softer tires may not be allowed, each race slick has one really fast lap in it, after which the grip is less. In qualifying, you get that one lap in during the session. If you have to run that same set of tires in the race, it won't still have that same super hot lap in it.)
When Motortrend or others take a street car to the track and do hot laps, they don't do any of that. While they are trying for the best lap they can muster, they drive the street car as is, set up to drive 1000s and 1000s of miles relatively trouble free, with tires that are intended to last a long time (they don't have one super hot lap in them). Very different from a qualifying setup that is designed solely for one fast lap.
Actually Motortrend has done it once with the Viper TA. The one that ran a 1:30.8 with Pirelli slicks on it. SRT was there and everything setting the car up for it. Nevertheless I digress. I get your point. I tend to like to compare to the fastest laps that way you know whoever drove it was going for the fastest lap so people don't get carried away thinking their street car is as fast as a cup car.
09-24-2014, 09:21 PM
#47
Racer
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 370
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Different tracks, different drivers and hence different results. Cars will have different results depending on the track. LS apparently favors the M4 with its setup. The NISMO was blistering fast on the 'Ring with a 7.08:32 and heavy run flat 20s, but can't touch the top 5 Motortrend lap times comprised of Vettes and Vipers at the US's version of the 'Ring.
09-24-2014, 09:22 PM
#48
Rennlist Member
One lapping is so uninteresting to me.
Hell any car will go for 3 laps. They should test cars till it runs out of gas.
These long duration all day driving tests like VIR annual test they do are more interesting but if you really want to know the value of a track car they should at least kill a set if tires and pads per car to see what's what for the somewhat advanced track day drover enthusiasts.
Hell any car will go for 3 laps. They should test cars till it runs out of gas.
These long duration all day driving tests like VIR annual test they do are more interesting but if you really want to know the value of a track car they should at least kill a set if tires and pads per car to see what's what for the somewhat advanced track day drover enthusiasts.
09-25-2014, 09:18 AM
#49
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
That's still unrealistic. Everyone is interested in the fastest lap they can produce unless you are actually in a racing event. And even then qualifying is important. Lap times are probably the most talked about thing at the track. And you yourself have compared lap times time and time again. The question is if you can reproduce said lap at will when the clean lap presents itself. Which wont be often for the fastest cars. And if you can do it more than a few times without having to pit.
Sure something like a gtr is uninteresting for many mostly because it simply for many because it needs all kinds of coolers etc. To run all out. But there is a wide range between that and something like the 996 gt3. But some seriously underestimate todays braking technology. Most cars are heavy now. Even GT3's compared to years past. Especially once optioned out.
Sure something like a gtr is uninteresting for many mostly because it simply for many because it needs all kinds of coolers etc. To run all out. But there is a wide range between that and something like the 996 gt3. But some seriously underestimate todays braking technology. Most cars are heavy now. Even GT3's compared to years past. Especially once optioned out.
09-25-2014, 01:36 PM
#50
Rennlist Member
Sure, agreed.
But it would be more indicative.
Lap times are interesting to measure ones improvements or lack thereof. I just go slower and slower LOL.
Just mean to say that most cars are so fast now, that they are almost all are fast enough to have fun it. And maybe even less relevant if you run a fun event like Chump racing...
But its the fun factor and economics of the consumables VS general dependability. Nothing makes me crankier than making time and effort, spend the money to be at a race track and not be able to drive because the car let me down.
Going home early 10 weekends in a row to make a Rustang / GTR / whatever Italian last a complete weekend actually running every available track minute is not for me for example. Just want to drive as much as possible as dependably (Even warrantied!) as possible.
This is hard to get from the car tests..
But it would be more indicative.
Lap times are interesting to measure ones improvements or lack thereof. I just go slower and slower LOL.
Just mean to say that most cars are so fast now, that they are almost all are fast enough to have fun it. And maybe even less relevant if you run a fun event like Chump racing...
But its the fun factor and economics of the consumables VS general dependability. Nothing makes me crankier than making time and effort, spend the money to be at a race track and not be able to drive because the car let me down.
Going home early 10 weekends in a row to make a Rustang / GTR / whatever Italian last a complete weekend actually running every available track minute is not for me for example. Just want to drive as much as possible as dependably (Even warrantied!) as possible.
This is hard to get from the car tests..
09-25-2014, 02:19 PM
#51
Race Car
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: With A Manual Transmission
Posts: 4,728
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
For sure. Being at the track and not tracking is the worst. Especially when you've driven a long way to get there. Plenty of manufacturers get away with a good time in the mags but you can't even run the car without something overheating or limp mode, or in the case of many C6 Corvette's, blowing up.
Fortunately, Porsche at the very least hasn't gone down that road. But unfortunately the days of manufacturers selling a car that is actually capable of racing are gone.
Fortunately, Porsche at the very least hasn't gone down that road. But unfortunately the days of manufacturers selling a car that is actually capable of racing are gone.
09-26-2014, 06:31 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
Here's one more time for perspective. The new production car lap record at Laguna Seca. Randy Pobst in the 918 with a 1:30. My gut feel is there's more in it than that as he didn't do very many laps. But still, it shows you how hard it is to get to 1:30 with DOT approved tires.
http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...he_918_spyder/
http://www.motortrend.com/features/p...he_918_spyder/
09-26-2014, 09:59 PM
#54
06-11-2015, 03:25 PM
#56
Similar alignments
Identical tyre compounds
Similar tyre wear
Same track conditions (ideally same day/temp)
Same driver
Qualifying times (meaning golden laps on fresh rubber) are frequently 1-2 seconds quicker than race laps; and 2-3 seconds quicker than when they are heavily heat cycled (with every other variable being the same).
So when comparing a 1:33 to 1:37 how different are all of these variables?
I suspect that the two cars wouldn't have had comparable alignments...
Who knows on how fresh each set of tyres was?
That said, keep the day/temp/driver consistent is much of the battle. If the driver is mediocre, then you're mostly measuring the limits of the driver. The best part about using the same driver is that they are driving the same line and same reference points. But to get the most meaningful data, the driver needs to be competent and able to modulate similar slip angles (ideally 9 degrees) and be able to maintain similar performance/risk profiles, in which case the comparison is worthwhile.
