WTF is the angst over turbos?
09-08-2015, 05:36 PM
#1
Pro
Thread Starter
WTF is the angst over turbos?
I love my GT3 and the sounds are great, but to me form and sound follow function and of all marques, I am baffled by the Porsche angst over turbos. To me the greatest Porsches of all time had turbos, 956, 962, 959, 919, 917 and more. Modern turbos have greater dynamic range and reliability. If the car is reliable and runs cool enough to use on track and is quicker, the sound seems secondary. And I personally love the sound of a turbo car with no mufflers and a big blowoff valve - as I think Clarkson said it sounds like Darth Vader is in the engine compartment. I have 2 turbo track cars and have even driven the F40 on track and think they are a symphony. The 911 Turbo is muffled into oblivion, but I bet if you remove all but the cats it will sound great.
As for the dreaded "lag," it's just a non-issue on track IMO with a properly sized and tuned turbo. You will be making plenty of RPMs and with a big blowoff valve and lift-throttle timing retard it's easy to keep the impellers spooled. And frankly, the F40 turbo hit was a hoot so long as you were ready and had it pointed straight - I'd have it no other way.
But then again I was stupid enough to buy a MP4-12C and actually like the damn thing, so what do I know?
As for the dreaded "lag," it's just a non-issue on track IMO with a properly sized and tuned turbo. You will be making plenty of RPMs and with a big blowoff valve and lift-throttle timing retard it's easy to keep the impellers spooled. And frankly, the F40 turbo hit was a hoot so long as you were ready and had it pointed straight - I'd have it no other way.
But then again I was stupid enough to buy a MP4-12C and actually like the damn thing, so what do I know?
09-08-2015, 05:39 PM
#2
Drifting
I love my GT3 and the sounds are great, but to me form and sound follow function and of all marques, I am baffled by the Porsche angst over turbos. To me the greatest Porsches of all time had turbos, 956, 962, 959, 919, 917 and more. Modern turbos have greater dynamic range and reliability. If the car is reliable and runs cool enough to use on track and is quicker, the sound seems secondary. And I personally love the sound of a turbo car with no mufflers and a big blowoff valve - as I think Clarkson said it sounds like Darth Vader is in the engine compartment. I have 2 turbo track cars and have even driven the F40 on track and think they are a symphony. The 911 Turbo is muffled into oblivion, but I bet if you remove all but the cats it will sound great.
As for the dreaded "lag," it's just a non-issue on track IMO with a properly sized and tuned turbo. You will be making plenty of RPMs and with a big blowoff valve and lift-throttle timing retard it's easy to keep the impellers spooled. And frankly, the F40 turbo hit was a hoot so long as you were ready and had it pointed straight - I'd have it no other way.
But then again I was stupid enough to buy a MP4-12C and actually like the damn thing, so what do I know?
As for the dreaded "lag," it's just a non-issue on track IMO with a properly sized and tuned turbo. You will be making plenty of RPMs and with a big blowoff valve and lift-throttle timing retard it's easy to keep the impellers spooled. And frankly, the F40 turbo hit was a hoot so long as you were ready and had it pointed straight - I'd have it no other way.
But then again I was stupid enough to buy a MP4-12C and actually like the damn thing, so what do I know?
I had a turbo. Have a 3 now. Have electric too.
98% of mortals who whine about turbo lag have no idea wtf they are doing on track. Period.
09-08-2015, 05:57 PM
#4
I was blessed to go out to Sweden this February with Porsche for a little ice driving. Walter Röhrl was there giving rides in his 991 Turbo S down a tight but flowing single track snow rally course. He's an absolute master, everything they claim and more. The question of Turbo vs NA came up.
First the drive: Walter was miles ahead of the course and car. The steering wheel was relatively quiet- much of the time it was entirely still as he casually balanced it with one hand, relatively little input and few large corrections required. Most of the steering was done with the throttle.
The car was preset far before the corner, and he was clearly thinking 3 corners ahead. He'd use left foot brake and throttle to initiate a slide 50 meters or more before the corner, put it into a mild drift, control the line with the throttle, then smoothly link that drift to the next one in a way that was almost slow motion and never jerky or violent. The car never actually hooked up.
There was never any understeer- he said that if he didn't provoke the drift before the corner then every 5th corner the car might get understeer. By setting the car into a four wheel drift before the corner he insured oversteer which he could control as opposed to understeer he could not, and from there he simply managed how much.
He clearly prefers normally aspirated for this application. The turbo's lack of throttle precision makes the car harder to place, because when he goes for the throttle he's never sure how much drift he'll get. I asked him how much less accurately he could place the car due to this- six inches, or 1 foot?
"I would say...." Walter thought for a moment, pregnant pause as he considered an answer before turning to face me fully, still at speed: "Two Feet".
Given that we were drifting edge to edge as it was, that two feet would have meant we'd be kissing the snowbanks on every single corner. It already seemed close to perfection to me, no sense of drama or chasing the car and needing to catch it. Velvet smooth.
When we talk about turbo "lag" or throttle delay with modern turbo cars it's at this level. If you're using the throttle to initiate and dial a drift then the lag or lower response from the newest generation of turbos is still an issue. For the way most of us drive 99.9% of the time, however, it's completely transparent and nearly irrelevant other than feel. Many newer turbo owners will tell you with a straight face that their cars "have no lag". And they fully believe this.
Walter makes it clear that his 991 Turbo S is awesome and his first choice on the street, comfortable with easy passing grunt and poise that makes it a weapon in the real world. However at the limit, in some conditions, something is lost. That day it was two feet.
EVO magazine nailed the other big concern when reviewing the new 488:
"The simple facts are that the new engine gives you more of what you can't use (outright power) and less of everything that can make any journey feel special (immediacy of throttle response, noise and that feral rush to 9000 rpm)."
I own both Turbo and normally aspirated cars. I like the Turbo for the drama it adds- it makes the car harder to drive at the limit, and sometimes this is a good thing. For precision, response and noise, however, nothing beats NA. It's wonderful to have the choicer, but I'd be extremely disappointed if NA went away. Clearly I'm not the only one.
First the drive: Walter was miles ahead of the course and car. The steering wheel was relatively quiet- much of the time it was entirely still as he casually balanced it with one hand, relatively little input and few large corrections required. Most of the steering was done with the throttle.
The car was preset far before the corner, and he was clearly thinking 3 corners ahead. He'd use left foot brake and throttle to initiate a slide 50 meters or more before the corner, put it into a mild drift, control the line with the throttle, then smoothly link that drift to the next one in a way that was almost slow motion and never jerky or violent. The car never actually hooked up.
There was never any understeer- he said that if he didn't provoke the drift before the corner then every 5th corner the car might get understeer. By setting the car into a four wheel drift before the corner he insured oversteer which he could control as opposed to understeer he could not, and from there he simply managed how much.
He clearly prefers normally aspirated for this application. The turbo's lack of throttle precision makes the car harder to place, because when he goes for the throttle he's never sure how much drift he'll get. I asked him how much less accurately he could place the car due to this- six inches, or 1 foot?
"I would say...." Walter thought for a moment, pregnant pause as he considered an answer before turning to face me fully, still at speed: "Two Feet".
Given that we were drifting edge to edge as it was, that two feet would have meant we'd be kissing the snowbanks on every single corner. It already seemed close to perfection to me, no sense of drama or chasing the car and needing to catch it. Velvet smooth.
When we talk about turbo "lag" or throttle delay with modern turbo cars it's at this level. If you're using the throttle to initiate and dial a drift then the lag or lower response from the newest generation of turbos is still an issue. For the way most of us drive 99.9% of the time, however, it's completely transparent and nearly irrelevant other than feel. Many newer turbo owners will tell you with a straight face that their cars "have no lag". And they fully believe this.
Walter makes it clear that his 991 Turbo S is awesome and his first choice on the street, comfortable with easy passing grunt and poise that makes it a weapon in the real world. However at the limit, in some conditions, something is lost. That day it was two feet.
EVO magazine nailed the other big concern when reviewing the new 488:
"The simple facts are that the new engine gives you more of what you can't use (outright power) and less of everything that can make any journey feel special (immediacy of throttle response, noise and that feral rush to 9000 rpm)."
I own both Turbo and normally aspirated cars. I like the Turbo for the drama it adds- it makes the car harder to drive at the limit, and sometimes this is a good thing. For precision, response and noise, however, nothing beats NA. It's wonderful to have the choicer, but I'd be extremely disappointed if NA went away. Clearly I'm not the only one.
09-08-2015, 06:04 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
I have nothing against turbos...but if given the choice on track I'd take a NA 100% of time. I have many turbos in the garage and love them but still prefer NA and the throttle response. It's not that lag is huge issue with turbos as they are getting more and more responsive but they still don't have the foot tied to the throttle butterfly plate response of NA engine. Just my 2 cents. I'm thinking though for a street car the new 911 won't bring the end of the world with it once people get behind wheel. Anytime change comes we all lose our minds....
09-08-2015, 06:10 PM
#6
Nordschleife Master
WTF is the angst over turbos?
Originally Posted by Petevb
I own both Turbo and NA. I like the Turbo for the drama it adds- it makes the car harder to drive at the limit, and sometimes this is a good thing. For precision, response and noise, however, nothing beats NA. It's nice to have the choice of either, but I'd be extremely disappointed if NA went away, and clearly I'm not the only one.
I have owned Turbo but nothing beats NA IMO.
The Turbo rush is awesome and highly tunable if you're into big power. But I prefer NA with less power and less weight. Heck,my NB Miata has 140HP and fun as hell!
09-08-2015, 06:26 PM
#7
Instructor
I have a 997TT in the garage right now and love it. But I want to add a GT3 because I miss having an NA car. To be honest the sound is a big deal to me because it also makes or breaks the experience of taking the car out for a drive on the weekend.
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09-08-2015, 06:30 PM
#8
Nordschleife Master
09-08-2015, 06:39 PM
#9
Drifting
09-08-2015, 06:46 PM
#10
Fair enough. I've got an electric too... Different car though, for a different roll. Wouldn't want electric for a weekend car.
09-08-2015, 06:47 PM
#11
I've had a Supra Turbo and had a 996TT...guess you can say I got my fill of turbos. For me, NA > Turbo > Hybrid/Electric
09-08-2015, 07:08 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
09-08-2015, 07:15 PM
#13
Drifting
I think it's a typical Porsche 911 owner trait to bemoan any "development" that is a deviation from the established norm for the car's formula:
Lengthening the wheelbase
Impact bumpers
Ditching torsion bars
Getting rid of the "pontoon" fenders
The switch to water cooling
The pre-eminence of PDK versus manual
Electric steering
And now turbos throughout the range
The consternation over turbos stems from concerns that the engines will lose character and "soul"; the knocks against turbos are, variously: Turbo lag, less linear power delivery, muted sound, etc.
Truth be told, my 993 had a much more characterful engine - throttle response, sound, fun to drive - than either my 997 or 991 GT3s. That despite being so much slower.
This angst is not unique to Porsche or the 911; many of the very same criticisms have appeared at Ferrarichat in connection with the 488 vs. the 458.
Lengthening the wheelbase
Impact bumpers
Ditching torsion bars
Getting rid of the "pontoon" fenders
The switch to water cooling
The pre-eminence of PDK versus manual
Electric steering
And now turbos throughout the range
The consternation over turbos stems from concerns that the engines will lose character and "soul"; the knocks against turbos are, variously: Turbo lag, less linear power delivery, muted sound, etc.
Truth be told, my 993 had a much more characterful engine - throttle response, sound, fun to drive - than either my 997 or 991 GT3s. That despite being so much slower.
This angst is not unique to Porsche or the 911; many of the very same criticisms have appeared at Ferrarichat in connection with the 488 vs. the 458.
09-08-2015, 07:52 PM
#14
If you don't know and you don't get it, it can't be explained to you.
09-08-2015, 08:38 PM
#15
Drifting
Won't be long before electric will be the choice for weekend car and they get super light, if not lighter then conventional motor vehicle as we know now. That is off topic, let's stay on topic.
Electric > N/A > Turbo in precision and response.