Traction control off during track day ?
06-24-2020, 06:19 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
06-24-2020, 06:25 PM
#32
i have crappy stock pzeros and that’s a huge reason...have been replacing with the same...as I said car is 100% stock...Right now these are in pretty solid shape but I’m going to replace with Michelin PS4S ..
Will be there on 7/5, perhaps will run into each other some day
Will be there on 7/5, perhaps will run into each other some day
Yes the stock P Zeros are crap, worse tires I've ever driven on. I immediately swap them out on al cars that came with them. I changed to PS4S and it handles great. Pretty durable too, I've on my 6th day on them (and 8k miles) and just about needs to be replaced. I'd recommend just switching out the tires first, T/C should come on less often because the car is not all over the place.
Great point. It's also different for your comfort level with each type of car. A front engine Mercedes, vs Mid engine Ferrari vs rear engine Porsche will all handle differently at the limit so there are different points when you "feel" you can turn it off.
06-24-2020, 06:25 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Are you still going with an Instructor or are you Solo?
As someone who is a Volunteer Instructor, my life is at risk - so I would like to be involved in that decision-making process. In my experience 90% of my students are not competent enough to turn it off because they have never owned a car without driver assists and I have serious doubts they can handle the car if it gets out of shape. I don't really care about your pad and rotor consumption, the track is Pay to Play and that's part of the deal. What I do care about - very much - is going sideways or backwards into the tree line / Armco at 80 mph as your passenger. And it's not because you are going to ball your car up, it's because I want to be able to go to work tomorrow without three cracked ribs and a sprained neck. Your car does not have a cage, a 6-point harness, a racing shell seat and fire control systems. It's not set up to crash at speed. Been there, done that for real.
One of the problems with these cars is they are very fast. it's not like the mid-90's when I first started instructing and the cars were 170 HP BMW 3 series. Now everyone comes to the track with 400 hp or more, and the cars are so good, the tires so grippy (compared to 25 years ago) that when things go south you as the driver are typically going very fast. Big speed means big wrecks. Big wrecks can mean fatalities or crushing injuries, and that's why there are fewer instructors in the pool now, we risk our our safety getting in the car with you, can you handle the vehicle if you step out past the limits? The limits that traction control and dynamic stability help keep you within? At the end of the day, the Instructor is your passenger and you are responsible for their safety. We are there to have fun just like you, and we want to go home and not to the hospital when the day is over. So its a conversation you need to have with them out of courtesy and respect before you disable all the systems. In most cases, if one of my students asks I will tell them they need to leave it on. If they insist and I am not comfortable with that decision, I simply won't ride with them and they can find another Instructor. I've stepped out of more than one car over the years because the owner thinks they are the next Schumacher and they're not.
If you are running solo, then it's your choice. This is not a race, there's no money or points involved for being 2/10's quicker in a lap,and there's not even a cheap plastic trophy to hand out. I want to go home with my car in one piece at the end of the day so it's ON for me with my own personal car, its simply adds in a margin of safety.
If the cost of running the car at the track is a concern, you need to get a cheaper track car. Miata is the way to go for that.
If I am competing in an Autocross, where there *IS* a cheap plastic trophy to bring home then I disable it on my cars because 1) It will make me faster 'round the cones 2) Speeds are usually much lower and serious crashes are very rare 3) I like to take home that trophy.
Be smart, have fun, Don't hurt anyone including yourself.
As someone who is a Volunteer Instructor, my life is at risk - so I would like to be involved in that decision-making process. In my experience 90% of my students are not competent enough to turn it off because they have never owned a car without driver assists and I have serious doubts they can handle the car if it gets out of shape. I don't really care about your pad and rotor consumption, the track is Pay to Play and that's part of the deal. What I do care about - very much - is going sideways or backwards into the tree line / Armco at 80 mph as your passenger. And it's not because you are going to ball your car up, it's because I want to be able to go to work tomorrow without three cracked ribs and a sprained neck. Your car does not have a cage, a 6-point harness, a racing shell seat and fire control systems. It's not set up to crash at speed. Been there, done that for real.
One of the problems with these cars is they are very fast. it's not like the mid-90's when I first started instructing and the cars were 170 HP BMW 3 series. Now everyone comes to the track with 400 hp or more, and the cars are so good, the tires so grippy (compared to 25 years ago) that when things go south you as the driver are typically going very fast. Big speed means big wrecks. Big wrecks can mean fatalities or crushing injuries, and that's why there are fewer instructors in the pool now, we risk our our safety getting in the car with you, can you handle the vehicle if you step out past the limits? The limits that traction control and dynamic stability help keep you within? At the end of the day, the Instructor is your passenger and you are responsible for their safety. We are there to have fun just like you, and we want to go home and not to the hospital when the day is over. So its a conversation you need to have with them out of courtesy and respect before you disable all the systems. In most cases, if one of my students asks I will tell them they need to leave it on. If they insist and I am not comfortable with that decision, I simply won't ride with them and they can find another Instructor. I've stepped out of more than one car over the years because the owner thinks they are the next Schumacher and they're not.
If you are running solo, then it's your choice. This is not a race, there's no money or points involved for being 2/10's quicker in a lap,and there's not even a cheap plastic trophy to hand out. I want to go home with my car in one piece at the end of the day so it's ON for me with my own personal car, its simply adds in a margin of safety.
If the cost of running the car at the track is a concern, you need to get a cheaper track car. Miata is the way to go for that.
If I am competing in an Autocross, where there *IS* a cheap plastic trophy to bring home then I disable it on my cars because 1) It will make me faster 'round the cones 2) Speeds are usually much lower and serious crashes are very rare 3) I like to take home that trophy.
Be smart, have fun, Don't hurt anyone including yourself.
Amen to this. And as a participant on the track, I want to know that protocols are in place and good decisions are being made in this regard by the organizing authority before I participate.
It's good to remember that most drivers identify themselves as "above average" and all too often unfortunately (and even tragically) act accordingly - real skills notwithstanding.
Last edited by darlinboy; 06-24-2020 at 06:40 PM.
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ducktails (06-24-2020)
06-24-2020, 06:56 PM
#34
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So true, everyone thinks they are a driving God, its extremely rare to have a humble student. I'd probably fall right out of the car if one of them said "I'm here to learn and know you can teach me something in order to make me a better driver". I think I had exactly one student say that to me in 25 years, and boy, was he a quick learner, he was my all-time favorite. When everyone would pit out at the session end he would come over to me instead of going to his pals to BS he would find me and ask to review the corner setups while they were fresh in his mind. He was into it, big time. By the end of the day, he improved so much that I was just flat out amazed. He got fast, very quickly and very safely because he had an open mind.
More often its "I paid my money to drive fast, they tell me I'm required to have you in the car but really don't need to be taught anything, I've got this". That's about 2/3's of male students. (Women are much easier to instruct!) The ones with their Go-Pros set to record so they can put it on You Tube are the worst, by the way. I shut up, let them do their thing around the track until they make a flub and then say "What do you think you just did wrong to unbalance your car like that?" That starts the dialogue and from there, if they want, we have to slow them down in order to make them fast. We dissect what they are doing then work on part of that until we get that dialed in, them move to another part to work on. When we get all the parts taken care of (not necessarily in one day) the student is born-again-hard and ready for the track. Only then are they ready to disable all the traction controls and dynamic stability and now they don't need an Instructor in the car and should be going solo.
Get signed off, have fun, be safe, watch the red mist and try not to ball it up! Come back and ask questions when you have one, door is always open.
More often its "I paid my money to drive fast, they tell me I'm required to have you in the car but really don't need to be taught anything, I've got this". That's about 2/3's of male students. (Women are much easier to instruct!) The ones with their Go-Pros set to record so they can put it on You Tube are the worst, by the way. I shut up, let them do their thing around the track until they make a flub and then say "What do you think you just did wrong to unbalance your car like that?" That starts the dialogue and from there, if they want, we have to slow them down in order to make them fast. We dissect what they are doing then work on part of that until we get that dialed in, them move to another part to work on. When we get all the parts taken care of (not necessarily in one day) the student is born-again-hard and ready for the track. Only then are they ready to disable all the traction controls and dynamic stability and now they don't need an Instructor in the car and should be going solo.
Get signed off, have fun, be safe, watch the red mist and try not to ball it up! Come back and ask questions when you have one, door is always open.
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fester (06-25-2020)
06-25-2020, 01:12 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Cool! I am going with a bunch of Porsche guys on 7/26. It's a 103db day which I need because of my exhaust
Yes the stock P Zeros are crap, worse tires I've ever driven on. I immediately swap them out on al cars that came with them. I changed to PS4S and it handles great. Pretty durable too, I've on my 6th day on them (and 8k miles) and just about needs to be replaced. I'd recommend just switching out the tires first, T/C should come on less often because the car is not all over the place.
Yes the stock P Zeros are crap, worse tires I've ever driven on. I immediately swap them out on al cars that came with them. I changed to PS4S and it handles great. Pretty durable too, I've on my 6th day on them (and 8k miles) and just about needs to be replaced. I'd recommend just switching out the tires first, T/C should come on less often because the car is not all over the place.
11-20-2023, 07:43 PM
#36
I found this thread when searching the internet for PTV. Normally I hang out in the 993 forum…don’t have PSM so it never comes up as a topic! Hahaha!
anyway…I was lucky enough to land a part time gig at PECLA as an Instructor few years back. If you haven’t been to a Porsche Experience Center yet, ask for a gift certificate from your bride, girlfriend, or boyfriend and go. It’s the very best place to learn car control, and PSM, and how they interact. The posts above are spot on in some cases. Do NOT turn it off at the track if you think it’s going to help you be faster, or it’s annoying you. You WILL ruin your day, or someone’s else’s day, maybe both! It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when you lose the car.
if you want to learn, go to PECLA…it’s better than Atlanta! Hahaha! I don’t know anyone at Atlanta…I’m sure they are good too.
I teach PSM, understeer, oversteer, how and why they happen and most importantly how to correct for them! At the PEC this is done on all the low friction modules as well as in the dynamics area which is dry asphalt. If it rains we do a Rain Force program in the dynamics area. The facility has a short(1.3 mile) very technical, handling circuit (asphalt). Low friction handling circuit (polished concrete with flour spread in multiple areas). Ice hill, kick-plate, and low friction circle (polished concrete and wet).
Hit me up for more info, or go to Porschedriving.com.
it’s a blast!
cheers!
anyway…I was lucky enough to land a part time gig at PECLA as an Instructor few years back. If you haven’t been to a Porsche Experience Center yet, ask for a gift certificate from your bride, girlfriend, or boyfriend and go. It’s the very best place to learn car control, and PSM, and how they interact. The posts above are spot on in some cases. Do NOT turn it off at the track if you think it’s going to help you be faster, or it’s annoying you. You WILL ruin your day, or someone’s else’s day, maybe both! It’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when you lose the car.
if you want to learn, go to PECLA…it’s better than Atlanta! Hahaha! I don’t know anyone at Atlanta…I’m sure they are good too.
I teach PSM, understeer, oversteer, how and why they happen and most importantly how to correct for them! At the PEC this is done on all the low friction modules as well as in the dynamics area which is dry asphalt. If it rains we do a Rain Force program in the dynamics area. The facility has a short(1.3 mile) very technical, handling circuit (asphalt). Low friction handling circuit (polished concrete with flour spread in multiple areas). Ice hill, kick-plate, and low friction circle (polished concrete and wet).
Hit me up for more info, or go to Porschedriving.com.
it’s a blast!
cheers!
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11-20-2023, 08:33 PM
#37
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Turn it on and off. If you're driving correctly it won't touch your brake pads; if you're not it will. Use it as a tool and learn when it's engaging and why. If you can't feel it engaging yet leave it on.
11-21-2023, 01:42 AM
#38
Last edited by 4 Point 0; 11-21-2023 at 02:00 AM.
11-22-2023, 01:56 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
So true, everyone thinks they are a driving God, its extremely rare to have a humble student. I'd probably fall right out of the car if one of them said "I'm here to learn and know you can teach me something in order to make me a better driver". I think I had exactly one student say that to me in 25 years, and boy, was he a quick learner, he was my all-time favorite. When everyone would pit out at the session end he would come over to me instead of going to his pals to BS he would find me and ask to review the corner setups while they were fresh in his mind. He was into it, big time. By the end of the day, he improved so much that I was just flat out amazed. He got fast, very quickly and very safely because he had an open mind.
More often its "I paid my money to drive fast, they tell me I'm required to have you in the car but really don't need to be taught anything, I've got this". That's about 2/3's of male students. (Women are much easier to instruct!) The ones with their Go-Pros set to record so they can put it on You Tube are the worst, by the way. I shut up, let them do their thing around the track until they make a flub and then say "What do you think you just did wrong to unbalance your car like that?" That starts the dialogue and from there, if they want, we have to slow them down in order to make them fast. We dissect what they are doing then work on part of that until we get that dialed in, them move to another part to work on. When we get all the parts taken care of (not necessarily in one day) the student is born-again-hard and ready for the track. Only then are they ready to disable all the traction controls and dynamic stability and now they don't need an Instructor in the car and should be going solo.
Get signed off, have fun, be safe, watch the red mist and try not to ball it up! Come back and ask questions when you have one, door is always open.
More often its "I paid my money to drive fast, they tell me I'm required to have you in the car but really don't need to be taught anything, I've got this". That's about 2/3's of male students. (Women are much easier to instruct!) The ones with their Go-Pros set to record so they can put it on You Tube are the worst, by the way. I shut up, let them do their thing around the track until they make a flub and then say "What do you think you just did wrong to unbalance your car like that?" That starts the dialogue and from there, if they want, we have to slow them down in order to make them fast. We dissect what they are doing then work on part of that until we get that dialed in, them move to another part to work on. When we get all the parts taken care of (not necessarily in one day) the student is born-again-hard and ready for the track. Only then are they ready to disable all the traction controls and dynamic stability and now they don't need an Instructor in the car and should be going solo.
Get signed off, have fun, be safe, watch the red mist and try not to ball it up! Come back and ask questions when you have one, door is always open.
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4 Point 0 (11-22-2023)
11-22-2023, 02:28 PM
#40
Wow... 30 year member here and I have say what you described is pretty much the opposite of what I have experienced. I've found the overwhelming majority of students DO tell me they are at the track to learn and become better drivers. There have certainly been a few yahoos... but I can be pretty commanding when I need to be. Hundreds of students and I've only threatened to get out of the car once... twice, maybe.
There is nothing you can do to scare these guys. Perhaps instructing isn’t suited to the other guy above.
Oh, and they don’t care if you run t/c on or off. When they drive your car, they ask if you run on or off, and they will drive in the same config as you do.
I don’t know if this makes a difference, but all of our instructors are professional race car drivers.
Last edited by 4 Point 0; 11-22-2023 at 02:32 PM.