991S set a new lap record of 7:37.90 for Nordschleife beating 997.2 GT3
10-09-2012, 09:41 PM
#31
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Right, that is totally backwards anyways, the 997.1 was more like 996.5. Pretty much everything was the same and interchangeable. The 997 was hardly a huge technology leap from 996. No where near 997 to 991.
10-09-2012, 11:03 PM
#32
Anyway, my comment was in the context of what I called the "huge technology leap forward" in the AWD, so you might care to find a point of argument if you don't read what I wrote, or try to generalize, but there it is -- transmission, not rear suspension geometry, not aerodynamics or chassis rigidity or whatever you might be advocating. I've never owned a 996 C4S, but I've tracked a couple and had them at the track at the same time as having the 997.2 C4S at the track, with decent suspension setup and tires, as well as my 991S and RS 3.8, so from a subjective seat of the pants and from just reading about the published information, no question the 996 to 997 was a leap and the 991 is two steps forward, one step back.
There is a chasm between 996 and 997.2 ... there's a crease line between 991 and 997.2 in technology (I couldn't care less about adding start-stop) and the lion's share of the delta to the 991 is both negative (in my humble) as a driver's car, and counter to it being a 911.
Here's hoping the 991 GT3 reverses that blunder, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm sure the new Grand Turismo character of the 911 will carry it forward to higher profits and more race wins, it will surely satisfy the bean counters and the stockholders, but if you really want to appreciate what a fantastic and astonishingly potent car Porsche delivered in the GT3 RS 3.8, then drive it shortly after driving a 991. They're both great cars in their own intents and purposes, but the 991 is not a leap forward of the 997. If anything, it's an excursion into foreign ground and I only hope Porsche does not venture further before finding its way again with the GT3 and RS, the Turbo and GT2 ... these are important cars we don't want to be turned into electric simulators of what once was.
10-09-2012, 11:50 PM
#33
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I'd suggest looking at the part numbers and technology checklist. The 997.2 and 991.1 are much the same car, give or take the stuff I don't like (wheelbase, steering, headlights, nose length, Aston Martin taillights) and the claims by the factory of it being a 101% all new and improved belie the fact it's the same machine with new dimensions and proportions.
Anyway, my comment was in the context of what I called the "huge technology leap forward" in the AWD, so you might care to find a point of argument if you don't read what I wrote, or try to generalize, but there it is -- transmission, not rear suspension geometry, not aerodynamics or chassis rigidity or whatever you might be advocating. I've never owned a 996 C4S, but I've tracked a couple and had them at the track at the same time as having the 997.2 C4S at the track, with decent suspension setup and tires, as well as my 991S and RS 3.8, so from a subjective seat of the pants and from just reading about the published information, no question the 996 to 997 was a leap and the 991 is two steps forward, one step back.
There is a chasm between 996 and 997.2 ... there's a crease line between 991 and 997.2 in technology (I couldn't care less about adding start-stop) and the lion's share of the delta to the 991 is both negative (in my humble) as a driver's car, and counter to it being a 911.
Here's hoping the 991 GT3 reverses that blunder, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm sure the new Grand Turismo character of the 911 will carry it forward to higher profits and more race wins, it will surely satisfy the bean counters and the stockholders, but if you really want to appreciate what a fantastic and astonishingly potent car Porsche delivered in the GT3 RS 3.8, then drive it shortly after driving a 991. They're both great cars in their own intents and purposes, but the 991 is not a leap forward of the 997. If anything, it's an excursion into foreign ground and I only hope Porsche does not venture further before finding its way again with the GT3 and RS, the Turbo and GT2 ... these are important cars we don't want to be turned into electric simulators of what once was.
Anyway, my comment was in the context of what I called the "huge technology leap forward" in the AWD, so you might care to find a point of argument if you don't read what I wrote, or try to generalize, but there it is -- transmission, not rear suspension geometry, not aerodynamics or chassis rigidity or whatever you might be advocating. I've never owned a 996 C4S, but I've tracked a couple and had them at the track at the same time as having the 997.2 C4S at the track, with decent suspension setup and tires, as well as my 991S and RS 3.8, so from a subjective seat of the pants and from just reading about the published information, no question the 996 to 997 was a leap and the 991 is two steps forward, one step back.
There is a chasm between 996 and 997.2 ... there's a crease line between 991 and 997.2 in technology (I couldn't care less about adding start-stop) and the lion's share of the delta to the 991 is both negative (in my humble) as a driver's car, and counter to it being a 911.
Here's hoping the 991 GT3 reverses that blunder, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm sure the new Grand Turismo character of the 911 will carry it forward to higher profits and more race wins, it will surely satisfy the bean counters and the stockholders, but if you really want to appreciate what a fantastic and astonishingly potent car Porsche delivered in the GT3 RS 3.8, then drive it shortly after driving a 991. They're both great cars in their own intents and purposes, but the 991 is not a leap forward of the 997. If anything, it's an excursion into foreign ground and I only hope Porsche does not venture further before finding its way again with the GT3 and RS, the Turbo and GT2 ... these are important cars we don't want to be turned into electric simulators of what once was.
After driving it thousands of kilometers through Germany and at the Nûrburgring
for two weekends I WOULD NOT CHANGE A THING back to 997.
Yes I like the 997 GT3. Just perfect on track, loved it. 997 Turbo sucks, my brother had it and I drove it a lot at the Ring. Original suspention and Bilstein PSS9 I think, normal tires and Cup, never really worked(Crap cars for daily use though, both of them, way too noisy) If anything they took the 991 much closer to GT3 in many ways:
- the laptimes on tracks, and the precise feeling driving it at the limit.
-the high revving new engines
- THE SOUND! (when you push the magic button)
On top of that the 991 is MUCH better for longer drives, WAY more quiet inside when cruising, and more stable in high speed.
The new steering, just really likes it. Makes you more confident when it really counts, at full speed around a track, at the same time more relaxing when you are cruising for hours at the autobahn. Gives you all the feedback you want and filters out all the things you dont need.
Not to forget the new design :-)
BRAVO PORSCHE, I have not wanted a 911 for years and years, suddenly 991 came along and after 3 testdrives I actually bought one.
I agree 991 can feel more dull than 997 driving around town, but thats just why it excels when you get down to business
10-10-2012, 12:11 AM
#34
I have to say 991 is a HUGE step forward compared to 997.
After driving it thousands of kilometers through Germany and at the Nûrburgring
for two weekends I WOULD NOT CHANGE A THING back to 997.
Yes I like the 997 GT3. Just perfect on track, loved it. 997 Turbo sucks, my brother had it and I drove it a lot at the Ring. Original suspention and Bilstein PSS9 I think, normal tires and Cup, never really worked(Crap cars for daily use though, both of them, way too noisy) If anything they took the 991 much closer to GT3 in many ways:
- the laptimes on tracks, and the precise feeling driving it at the limit.
-the high revving new engines
- THE SOUND! (when you push the magic button)
On top of that the 991 is MUCH better for longer drives, WAY more quiet inside when cruising, and more stable in high speed.
The new steering, just really likes it. Makes you more confident when it really counts, at full speed around a track, at the same time more relaxing when you are cruising for hours at the autobahn. Gives you all the feedback you want and filters out all the things you dont need.
Not to forget the new design :-)
BRAVO PORSCHE, I have not wanted a 911 for years and years, suddenly 991 came along and after 3 testdrives I actually bought one.
I agree 991 can feel more dull than 997 driving around town, but thats just why it excels when you get down to business
After driving it thousands of kilometers through Germany and at the Nûrburgring
for two weekends I WOULD NOT CHANGE A THING back to 997.
Yes I like the 997 GT3. Just perfect on track, loved it. 997 Turbo sucks, my brother had it and I drove it a lot at the Ring. Original suspention and Bilstein PSS9 I think, normal tires and Cup, never really worked(Crap cars for daily use though, both of them, way too noisy) If anything they took the 991 much closer to GT3 in many ways:
- the laptimes on tracks, and the precise feeling driving it at the limit.
-the high revving new engines
- THE SOUND! (when you push the magic button)
On top of that the 991 is MUCH better for longer drives, WAY more quiet inside when cruising, and more stable in high speed.
The new steering, just really likes it. Makes you more confident when it really counts, at full speed around a track, at the same time more relaxing when you are cruising for hours at the autobahn. Gives you all the feedback you want and filters out all the things you dont need.
Not to forget the new design :-)
BRAVO PORSCHE, I have not wanted a 911 for years and years, suddenly 991 came along and after 3 testdrives I actually bought one.
I agree 991 can feel more dull than 997 driving around town, but thats just why it excels when you get down to business
I don't think it's a reasonable or fair comparison to put the 991 Carrera up against the 997 GT3 or RS or Turbo, so I'll set that aside. But 991.1 S vs 997.2 4S, the suspension, handling, feel, throttle, and steering of the 997 are all favorable in my experience. The 991.1 S excelled only in actual numbers (lap times) and I'd argue some of that was just the bigger brakes to deal with the limits of PSM and years of R&D to improve all the electronic systems and the transmission shifts.
Suffice to say, the further I go, the farther I am behind in the 991 compared to the 997 and I can only hope the future of the 991 brings us forward. But you make a valid point that the 991 cabin is a nice place to be. Though I find it noisier than the 997.3 with worse NVH (subjectively) I find that overall, it's a great tourer and a "weapon of choice" when I'm covering 200 miles to go snow skiing or just to sprint 10 miles through mountain canyon roads for an errand or no more purpose than the drive itself. So in some ways, the 991 is a very real 911 -- a car you enjoy seeing, you're happy to find in the driveway and you want to drive simply because driving is a reward in itself and it is a fun car to drive.
10-10-2012, 12:38 AM
#35
Rennlist Member
A part of the 991 technical leap is the Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde personality. Any number of cars can top the 0-60 numbers or go around the Ring faster, but none do it so incredibly well as Porsche does. It is the whole package and now the 991 just stepped it up a couple notches.
The 991 GT3 will shut the naysayers up for good!
10-10-2012, 03:35 AM
#36
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I'd suggest looking at the part numbers and technology checklist. The 997.2 and 991.1 are much the same car, give or take the stuff I don't like (wheelbase, steering, headlights, nose length, Aston Martin taillights) and the claims by the factory of it being a 101% all new and improved belie the fact it's the same machine with new dimensions and proportions.
Anyway, my comment was in the context of what I called the "huge technology leap forward" in the AWD, so you might care to find a point of argument if you don't read what I wrote, or try to generalize, but there it is -- transmission, not rear suspension geometry, not aerodynamics or chassis rigidity or whatever you might be advocating. I've never owned a 996 C4S, but I've tracked a couple and had them at the track at the same time as having the 997.2 C4S at the track, with decent suspension setup and tires, as well as my 991S and RS 3.8, so from a subjective seat of the pants and from just reading about the published information, no question the 996 to 997 was a leap and the 991 is two steps forward, one step back.
There is a chasm between 996 and 997.2 ... there's a crease line between 991 and 997.2 in technology (I couldn't care less about adding start-stop) and the lion's share of the delta to the 991 is both negative (in my humble) as a driver's car, and counter to it being a 911.
Here's hoping the 991 GT3 reverses that blunder, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm sure the new Grand Turismo character of the 911 will carry it forward to higher profits and more race wins, it will surely satisfy the bean counters and the stockholders, but if you really want to appreciate what a fantastic and astonishingly potent car Porsche delivered in the GT3 RS 3.8, then drive it shortly after driving a 991. They're both great cars in their own intents and purposes, but the 991 is not a leap forward of the 997. If anything, it's an excursion into foreign ground and I only hope Porsche does not venture further before finding its way again with the GT3 and RS, the Turbo and GT2 ... these are important cars we don't want to be turned into electric simulators of what once was.
Anyway, my comment was in the context of what I called the "huge technology leap forward" in the AWD, so you might care to find a point of argument if you don't read what I wrote, or try to generalize, but there it is -- transmission, not rear suspension geometry, not aerodynamics or chassis rigidity or whatever you might be advocating. I've never owned a 996 C4S, but I've tracked a couple and had them at the track at the same time as having the 997.2 C4S at the track, with decent suspension setup and tires, as well as my 991S and RS 3.8, so from a subjective seat of the pants and from just reading about the published information, no question the 996 to 997 was a leap and the 991 is two steps forward, one step back.
There is a chasm between 996 and 997.2 ... there's a crease line between 991 and 997.2 in technology (I couldn't care less about adding start-stop) and the lion's share of the delta to the 991 is both negative (in my humble) as a driver's car, and counter to it being a 911.
Here's hoping the 991 GT3 reverses that blunder, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm sure the new Grand Turismo character of the 911 will carry it forward to higher profits and more race wins, it will surely satisfy the bean counters and the stockholders, but if you really want to appreciate what a fantastic and astonishingly potent car Porsche delivered in the GT3 RS 3.8, then drive it shortly after driving a 991. They're both great cars in their own intents and purposes, but the 991 is not a leap forward of the 997. If anything, it's an excursion into foreign ground and I only hope Porsche does not venture further before finding its way again with the GT3 and RS, the Turbo and GT2 ... these are important cars we don't want to be turned into electric simulators of what once was.
And what about the performance difference?
The 991 has for more radical changes in most every area than the 997 from 996 which was more cosmetic than anything. You can swap out most every suspension part, an performance gain was mostly limited to hp changes and the intro of pdk. The look may be closer, but that's about it.
10-10-2012, 04:31 AM
#37
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The features you describe as pluses for the 991 are the things I detest -- the "magic" button, to me, is an atrocity that should not have existed beyond the first meeting to suggest such a device. The idea of piping noise into the cabin is as ludicrous as it sounds. I was prepared to have an open mind and say "why not? it is, after all, the actual induction noises, but having lived with it for thousands of miles, no, it's an abomination and should be eradicated. I don't think I'm in the majority on this.
I don't think it's a reasonable or fair comparison to put the 991 Carrera up against the 997 GT3 or RS or Turbo, so I'll set that aside. But 991.1 S vs 997.2 4S, the suspension, handling, feel, throttle, and steering of the 997 are all favorable in my experience. The 991.1 S excelled only in actual numbers (lap times) and I'd argue some of that was just the bigger brakes to deal with the limits of PSM and years of R&D to improve all the electronic systems and the transmission shifts.
Suffice to say, the further I go, the farther I am behind in the 991 compared to the 997 and I can only hope the future of the 991 brings us forward. But you make a valid point that the 991 cabin is a nice place to be. Though I find it noisier than the 997.3 with worse NVH (subjectively) I find that overall, it's a great tourer and a "weapon of choice" when I'm covering 200 miles to go snow skiing or just to sprint 10 miles through mountain canyon roads for an errand or no more purpose than the drive itself. So in some ways, the 991 is a very real 911 -- a car you enjoy seeing, you're happy to find in the driveway and you want to drive simply because driving is a reward in itself and it is a fun car to drive.
I don't think it's a reasonable or fair comparison to put the 991 Carrera up against the 997 GT3 or RS or Turbo, so I'll set that aside. But 991.1 S vs 997.2 4S, the suspension, handling, feel, throttle, and steering of the 997 are all favorable in my experience. The 991.1 S excelled only in actual numbers (lap times) and I'd argue some of that was just the bigger brakes to deal with the limits of PSM and years of R&D to improve all the electronic systems and the transmission shifts.
Suffice to say, the further I go, the farther I am behind in the 991 compared to the 997 and I can only hope the future of the 991 brings us forward. But you make a valid point that the 991 cabin is a nice place to be. Though I find it noisier than the 997.3 with worse NVH (subjectively) I find that overall, it's a great tourer and a "weapon of choice" when I'm covering 200 miles to go snow skiing or just to sprint 10 miles through mountain canyon roads for an errand or no more purpose than the drive itself. So in some ways, the 991 is a very real 911 -- a car you enjoy seeing, you're happy to find in the driveway and you want to drive simply because driving is a reward in itself and it is a fun car to drive.
I have to say that noise I get when pushing the exhaust button just makes me very happy!
But the sound is already very nice without it, I guess amplifying something nice is OK, and its actually cool when you are cruising and want to play with the accellerator a bit, fantastic sound.
Overall the sound outside and inside from the engine is a step up from 997 even without "the button"
Let us just agree, the 991 lost someting on the way and gained other qualities.
997 is a lot of fun and a great car, the later versions were improved.
Comparing the 997 Turbo to my base Carrera seems strange to you.
My brother and I have 1 hobby. Driving to the Nürburgring and have fun there.
3-4 times a year.
For that purpose, the trip down is way better. The sound inside the new car, way cooler than in a turbo when goin hard.
At the track, we both drive faster than we ever did with the turbo on Cup tires with PSS9 suspention, and the 991 just feels a lot more like the 2007 GT3 I tested there than any other 997 I have driven there.
So for me, the comparison is very relevant :-)
By the way, staying at the Ring from friday til tuesday this weekend, hoping the sun will shine!!!
Last edited by Dag Johnsen; 10-10-2012 at 06:14 AM.
10-10-2012, 10:19 AM
#38
Race Car
The features you describe as pluses for the 991 are the things I detest -- the "magic" button, to me, is an atrocity that should not have existed beyond the first meeting to suggest such a device. The idea of piping noise into the cabin is as ludicrous as it sounds. I was prepared to have an open mind and say "why not? it is, after all, the actual induction noises, but having lived with it for thousands of miles, no, it's an abomination and should be eradicated. I don't think I'm in the majority on this.
I don't think it's a reasonable or fair comparison to put the 991 Carrera up against the 997 GT3 or RS or Turbo, so I'll set that aside. But 991.1 S vs 997.2 4S, the suspension, handling, feel, throttle, and steering of the 997 are all favorable in my experience. The 991.1 S excelled only in actual numbers (lap times) and I'd argue some of that was just the bigger brakes to deal with the limits of PSM and years of R&D to improve all the electronic systems and the transmission shifts.
Suffice to say, the further I go, the farther I am behind in the 991 compared to the 997 and I can only hope the future of the 991 brings us forward. But you make a valid point that the 991 cabin is a nice place to be. Though I find it noisier than the 997.3 with worse NVH (subjectively) I find that overall, it's a great tourer and a "weapon of choice" when I'm covering 200 miles to go snow skiing or just to sprint 10 miles through mountain canyon roads for an errand or no more purpose than the drive itself. So in some ways, the 991 is a very real 911 -- a car you enjoy seeing, you're happy to find in the driveway and you want to drive simply because driving is a reward in itself and it is a fun car to drive.
I don't think it's a reasonable or fair comparison to put the 991 Carrera up against the 997 GT3 or RS or Turbo, so I'll set that aside. But 991.1 S vs 997.2 4S, the suspension, handling, feel, throttle, and steering of the 997 are all favorable in my experience. The 991.1 S excelled only in actual numbers (lap times) and I'd argue some of that was just the bigger brakes to deal with the limits of PSM and years of R&D to improve all the electronic systems and the transmission shifts.
Suffice to say, the further I go, the farther I am behind in the 991 compared to the 997 and I can only hope the future of the 991 brings us forward. But you make a valid point that the 991 cabin is a nice place to be. Though I find it noisier than the 997.3 with worse NVH (subjectively) I find that overall, it's a great tourer and a "weapon of choice" when I'm covering 200 miles to go snow skiing or just to sprint 10 miles through mountain canyon roads for an errand or no more purpose than the drive itself. So in some ways, the 991 is a very real 911 -- a car you enjoy seeing, you're happy to find in the driveway and you want to drive simply because driving is a reward in itself and it is a fun car to drive.
10-10-2012, 03:37 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
There is a chasm between 996 and 997.2 ... there's a crease line between 991 and 997.2 in technology (I couldn't care less about adding start-stop) and the lion's share of the delta to the 991 is both negative (in my humble) as a driver's car, and counter to it being a 911.
10-10-2012, 03:41 PM
#40
Let us just agree, the 991 lost someting on the way and gained other qualities.
My brother and I have 1 hobby. Driving to the Nürburgring and have fun there.
3-4 times a year.
By the way, staying at the Ring from friday til tuesday this weekend, hoping the sun will shine!!!
10-10-2012, 03:52 PM
#41
It's one of those things where I'd like to try a totally analog 991, but that's not to say I'd like it. The 991 has become one of those machines that relies upon its electronics and perhaps it become quite unpleasant or even unmanageable without the electronics.
10-10-2012, 04:31 PM
#42
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Maybe so. I can't tell. On track, deliberately studying PDCC/PTV, it's really hard to tell what's what. The 991S has some terrible habits with intervention, but they're quite subtle and require some deciphering to figure out what's PSM and what's really the vectoring just not on the right vector, Victor. If only there was a couple of switches on the dash alongside PSM to individually activate or totally deactivate SC, TC, or parts of PSM that could be adjusted manually, then there's PTV, ABD, EDTC, PDCC, engine mounts, and especially PASM, just give me a way to "click" PASM up and down, one click at a time for compression and rebound, maybe even fast and slow, corner by corner, electronically ... that would be fun.
It's one of those things where I'd like to try a totally analog 991, but that's not to say I'd like it. The 991 has become one of those machines that relies upon its electronics and perhaps it become quite unpleasant or even unmanageable without the electronics.
It's one of those things where I'd like to try a totally analog 991, but that's not to say I'd like it. The 991 has become one of those machines that relies upon its electronics and perhaps it become quite unpleasant or even unmanageable without the electronics.
PDCC is a mess and will need to get an software update.
My 991 with Sport PASM feels very analog
Just as analog as a 996 Carrera 4, 997.1 Carrera S, 997.1 Turbo or 997.1 GT3
10-10-2012, 04:54 PM
#43
Just a small comment, on my fast laps PSM never activates, using sport plus setting that elevetes the threashold for the system interfearing.
PDCC is a mess and will need to get an software update.
My 991 with Sport PASM feels very analog
Just as analog as a 996 Carrera 4, 997.1 Carrera S, 997.1 Turbo or 997.1 GT3
PDCC is a mess and will need to get an software update.
My 991 with Sport PASM feels very analog
Just as analog as a 996 Carrera 4, 997.1 Carrera S, 997.1 Turbo or 997.1 GT3
The only time I know PDCC is involved in when it relents and lets lean angle into the car -- it has some sort of "you're pushing your luck, Johnny" mode where it will deliberately reduce roll stiffness. Again, I can't figure out the exact algo that dictates these states, but there it is.
I'd love to see Porsche update the dash software to add a set of suspension or what it calls "chassis" settings for the driver to use a steering wheel thumb-scroll to adjust PDCC, etc. That would be worth paying for -- they could literally send me an offer "Dear Adam, for only $1000, we'll email you a file to put on a USB and stick in the glovebox. Tap your heels together three times, sit in the passenger seat and reach around (sorry, too graphic, I know) and start the engine while holding the PDK shifter in the upshift detent ... and wait for the dash software update to upload and reboot your car. Bingo, new menus ... like my kids buying $4.99 in-game "power ups" while my iTunes account ticks over like a one-armed poker machine...
10-10-2012, 05:14 PM
#44
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I'm new to the forum hence can't start a new thread but this is what I just took photos of just now...
http://www.gearstage.com/car/562
http://www.gearstage.com/car/573
http://www.gearstage.com/car/574
http://www.gearstage.com/car/575
http://www.gearstage.com/car/576
http://www.gearstage.com/car/577
http://www.gearstage.com/car/578
http://www.gearstage.com/car/579
http://www.gearstage.com/car/562
http://www.gearstage.com/car/573
http://www.gearstage.com/car/574
http://www.gearstage.com/car/575
http://www.gearstage.com/car/576
http://www.gearstage.com/car/577
http://www.gearstage.com/car/578
http://www.gearstage.com/car/579
10-10-2012, 05:19 PM
#45
I'm new to the forum hence can't start a new thread but this is what I just took photos of just now...
http://www.gearstage.com/car/562
http://www.gearstage.com/car/573
http://www.gearstage.com/car/574
http://www.gearstage.com/car/575
http://www.gearstage.com/car/576
http://www.gearstage.com/car/577
http://www.gearstage.com/car/578
http://www.gearstage.com/car/579
http://www.gearstage.com/car/562
http://www.gearstage.com/car/573
http://www.gearstage.com/car/574
http://www.gearstage.com/car/575
http://www.gearstage.com/car/576
http://www.gearstage.com/car/577
http://www.gearstage.com/car/578
http://www.gearstage.com/car/579
Interesting how Porsche happily leaves their prototype development mule cars just sitting around unattended ... GT3 and 918 just sitting there at the curb ...
Also, someone already posted your shots, so they're visible on the forum here:
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...sguised-2.html