MagicRat

So I dropped my 991 GTS at the dealer to have the clunk from the rear end looked at (stone in an anti-roll bar FYI), and they loaned me a Boxster for a couple of days. It was obviously down on power compared to mine, but here's the thing - I felt like I was going round tight, low-speed corners more quickly in it, and kindasorta enjoyed driving it more. I did a few bits of road I know well in the Boxster, and then in mine when I got it back, and according to the speedo I really was going faster in the slower car.

I think the issue is that I had a Boxster 987 before and did a reasonable amount of track training in it, so when I got in the 981 I could find the limits pretty quickly. I also just felt the car was part of me in a way that with the 991 I just don't yet quite have.

Maybe it's because my car has PDCC, or just that the limits are farther away and so harder to find on the road, but my question is this: Is there any big difference in how one corners in a rear-engined vs a mid-engined car? I've been taught to turn in while coming off the brakes, then hold throttle for constant speed and then give it more gas as the steering unwinds. Anything different from that for a 911? It feels like it has so much grip I could either turn in at higher speed, or get on the gas earlier in the corner (ie start accelerating while the steering input is fully on).

I'm going to book myself some training in the 991, but until then any suggestions? I'm not, like, thinking about trading in my GTS for a BGTS, but I'm maybe thinking about thinking about it, which is a shame, because I think the Carrera is much more beautiful.

Thanks folks.

Winegums

I think you've stumbled upon what has bothered a lot of people about the Boxster/Cayman, Porsche has always kept the Boxster/Cayman down on power so that it doesn't out perform the 911.

If you do get a Boxster you can have a 3.8L swapped into the car and you won't be missing the power. BGB, Deman, Ruf and some other shops have had great success with this swap.

jimbo1111

Actually I think that your more confident and aware of the limits in the Boxster. The 991 GTS feels as if there is no limit and at high speed no one wants to find it lol.

997s07

There is a thread here about a month or so back about why some chose the 981 or the 991 with respect to each other.

The mid engine car is a better driver's car, at least at lower speeds, because it is very well balanced. The pivot point is essentially in the center, the car is lighter, so turning the car is much more agile.

I have not pushed my 991 to any limits yet as it needs to be broken in first, however, I push my 997 GT3 to its limit every weekend I am home. While the 991 is not the same by any means compared to the 997, a few characteristics apply - namely the rear engine weight - an unbalanced car. I have found to get the car to be nimble means to have more power during moves. So stay in low gears and push through whatever you want. The tail does not kick out easily at all. You cannot change the feeling of the chassis that will flex with the engine in the back. PDCC is a big problem in feeling the car, and so is PASM (any variety). These are robbing you of some feel. Unfortunately there is nothing you can do about chassis flex in a 991 - it is longer and won't be as rigid as the previous 911 cars. While the 981 has about the same chassis length the mass is centered so length effectively is stabilizing lateral grip.

It is not your driving, you are doing it correctly, it is the car. On the track, you will find the rear engine pushing the back end down for great corner exits - but of course not on the street.

drcollie

Why would you swap in a 3.8 when the new Boxster Spyder already has it from the factory? They kill off 15 HP to that it's not the same spec as a 991S engine, but that's it. And I guarantee you that's a software kill that could be added back in if there is a tuner that can crack the code on the Porsche DME's (its not easy to do any more).

The reason the Boxster feels better and more precise is its a mid-engine car vs the rear engine on a 991. It has to do with Polar Inertia / Center Mass and other technical reasons that are outside my pay grade, but the bottom line is its more stable and balanced with the weight in the center of the car. 911's are an archaic design that has been kept alive only because of dynamic stability control management through electronics and complex suspension engineering, because buyers want 911's. Porsche will continue to make them as long as they sell, but from an engineering standpoint its a nightmare. Go drive a 70's era 911 and push it hard like you might your 991 and likely you will wind up ****-end first in a ditch somewhere...lol TRUTH

shewu

Minor nitpick: GT4 is 385HP, Spyder is nerfed another 10HP down to 375HP. Still not too big of a difference.

MagicRat

Might have put my name down on the waiting list for a Spyder yesterday just in case! Only question would be how fun an MT would be in London Town, but hell I managed one when I was seventeen...!

MKW

the continued exact 10 hp delta of any Cayman vs its Boxster equivalent is all sales/ marketing driven " sales brochure engineering " ..to justify the bizzarre decision made years ago to price the " coupe " version of a Boxster thousands more the the convertible version ...never done before or since by any other car maker

( imagine what the reaction in the new 911 world would have been if the 10k difference in base MSRPs of 991.2 coupe and Cab were reversed , with the justification that the coupe from now on would always have 10 more hp than the Cab ! )

general rule of thumb is you cannot "feel " a difference of less than 10 % in hp before/after if the peak of the hp and tq curves are at same rpm and esp in this case where the vehicles themselves are the main difference

if there were two identical GT4s down to the color , one with dyno certified 375 and the other 385 and two Boxster Spyders similarly configured , I would bet no one would be able to identify the " higher hp " motor if one spent hours driving all four over and over and you were blinded to which one you were handed each trip out on the track , even sometimes given the same car back to back w/o your knowledge to better eliminate selection bias !

TheEngineer

I recently had the opportunity to drive the Boxster GTS for the autocross portion of the Porsche 2 day driving school. The car was an absolute blast; well balanced and easy to place exactly where you wanted it. We also drove 911S and GTS as well as the GT4 on the road course.
Based on activity, I would prefer
Daily driver: 991
Track day: Close, but still 991. The Cayman is a bit tight for my 6'3" frame with a helmet on.
Autocross: Cayman

MagicRat

Thanks for this. Pretty much tallies with what I feel. The 981 wants precision and delicacy, the 991 basically wants to be (as one probably isn't allowed to say anymore) treated like a naughty schoolboy and thrashed. Staying in low gear and getting the power on is definitely when I've felt it speak to me most. Interestingly, I drove both 991 and 981 on track and much preferred the rear-engined car, probably because of the extra grip and power in that environment. On the road, though, currently not so sure.

Re the 10hp difference, drop-top is worth more than that to me, plus it can be tuned/exhausted etc. The engine-swap idea is interesting, though. I wouldn't mind the creature comforts of the regular Boxster (electric roof, PDK) with the power of the 3.8. Wouldn't look as special though. Decisions decisions!

Archimedes

I own both, a 981S Cayman (X73) and a 991S Carrera (with SPASM/PDCC). Different driving experiences for sure. The 981 feels more go karty and gives the sensation of more involvement, but the 991 still performs better everywhere. It obviously has more power, but I also find that in the twisty bits it's more planted and has much better grip, both on turn in and at exit. The 981 may feel more lively and more fun to drive, but as far as performance goes relative to the 991, it's perception. And the lap times on all sorts of tracks prove it out. The 991 chassis is superior, unless/until you improve the suspension and contact patch in the 981 platform, ala the GT4. Note, even then, the C2S turned a faster Ring time than the GT4. Obviously, that would swap on most tracks, but the gap would still be small.

I will say though that installing the X73 suspension in my 981 narrowed the gap with my 991 in terms of corner feel/plantedness.

thomnellie

At the Porsche driving school in Birmingham, they taught us to brake late and hard to get the weight over the front wheels and turn in immediately, trail the brakes until the apex, then off the brakes and roll on the power. This technique makes a huge difference in turn-in, minimizing then tendency of the 911 to understeer. The effect is especially noticeable with AWD versions which otherwise have a real tendency to plow through corners.

Archimedes

Here's a video that's pretty telling. Comparison between a Boxster S and a base Carrera on a tight track that should favor the mid engine Boxster, but the Carrera pretty much eats it's lunch.

997s07

You've posted this video before. But if anything, this video shows how much better the mid engine platform is - and I'm a C2 driver.

Archimedes

You did see the part where he said 'on a track absolutely suited to the Boxster, the Carrera is more precise, more fun and faster...', right? The Cayman is big fun, but the Carrera is the better car, no question. For some reason people have drunk so much mid engine kool aid that they think it's all that matters.

That video shows how much more planted the 991 chassis is and how lively and skittish the 981 is by comparison.