Most Absurd Logic: Someone talk to Porsche about this
12-02-2018, 05:10 AM
#76
Was talking to the SA yesterday about, it seems they could not make 2 separated vertical line due to homologation rules as the 3rd stop light must be one and not two. I guess they reeeaaallly run out of ideas!
12-02-2018, 10:30 AM
#77
Race Director
And brake lights, cup holders, liner materials and other relatively insignificant things. This thread and some of the others sound like an old hen circle!
For some, including me when I get my 911, it'll be a DD. So having a beverage (I take my caffeine cold and fizzy) is part of the normal driving day. Or on long road trips.
I'm not worried about the parking brake location. I agree there are/were other places to locate it that would be better; it's just an electric switch, after all. Personally, I liked where it was on my Boxster, on the left kick panel, where a proper parking brake belongs (unless it's a true hand brake).
China, China, China... all ills are China's fault. I doubt that. Easy scapegoat for stuff you don't like and/or bad style decisions, but it's not all because of the China market.
Two P buttons? Where's the second one? I only see one.
I agree it does seem that the design of that center console kept the MT configuration in mind.
As redroute's render shows, they could have put the parking brake switch closer to the nubbin, but he's also right that it wouldn't fit well with the future MT, so had to be somewhere else.
Second dead horse. Or maybe first. Not sure which horse is more bludgeoned... the nubbin or the brake light. They are what they are; stop whining about them! Don't buy it if it's that abhorrent to you. Simple.
Another funny and frequent whine I've seen here. Everyone wished for the paddle shifters - you know, to be like real race cars... er, because they look better. Functionally, though, the older push-pull switches in the pre-paddle wheels are far, far more functional. No matter which way your wheel is turned, you know which direction to push or pull to get the gear you want, 99% of the time without having to take your hands off the wheel. OK, maybe the function could have been reversed, but we're all smart folks here and can certainly learn how they work. Seemed pretty logical to me, though: push to go faster, pull to go slower. Forward=go forward faster; Back=slow the forward progress. Simple. And it worked the same on both switches! Our '14 CD has them while the 15 has the paddles. And by Boxster S had them. I agree, the paddles look better but the wheel switches WORK better.
Be careful what you wish for....
If you "don't see the friggin point", why didn't you get a manual? What's the point of paying extra for something that works better and faster than you ever will and then killing that functionality so you can get the feeling that you're shifting? Sure, now and then, great. But since you NEVER drive in automatic, why spend the money?
Some would argue that you can't drive these cars in a true sporting nature with an automatic. And yes, even in the M mode, it's an automatic. Coming out of a descent turn, you should be in Sport or Sport+ and let the thing shift for you; you'll get better performance and better lap times.
Even with the "thumbers" (and I agree, they are always right there; see above), I keep coming back to the question of why you would spend an extra $3 grand+ for something and then disable it?? And make yourself slower.
For some, including me when I get my 911, it'll be a DD. So having a beverage (I take my caffeine cold and fizzy) is part of the normal driving day. Or on long road trips.
I'm not worried about the parking brake location. I agree there are/were other places to locate it that would be better; it's just an electric switch, after all. Personally, I liked where it was on my Boxster, on the left kick panel, where a proper parking brake belongs (unless it's a true hand brake).
China, China, China... all ills are China's fault. I doubt that. Easy scapegoat for stuff you don't like and/or bad style decisions, but it's not all because of the China market.
Two P buttons? Where's the second one? I only see one.
I agree it does seem that the design of that center console kept the MT configuration in mind.
As redroute's render shows, they could have put the parking brake switch closer to the nubbin, but he's also right that it wouldn't fit well with the future MT, so had to be somewhere else.
Second dead horse. Or maybe first. Not sure which horse is more bludgeoned... the nubbin or the brake light. They are what they are; stop whining about them! Don't buy it if it's that abhorrent to you. Simple.
Another funny and frequent whine I've seen here. Everyone wished for the paddle shifters - you know, to be like real race cars... er, because they look better. Functionally, though, the older push-pull switches in the pre-paddle wheels are far, far more functional. No matter which way your wheel is turned, you know which direction to push or pull to get the gear you want, 99% of the time without having to take your hands off the wheel. OK, maybe the function could have been reversed, but we're all smart folks here and can certainly learn how they work. Seemed pretty logical to me, though: push to go faster, pull to go slower. Forward=go forward faster; Back=slow the forward progress. Simple. And it worked the same on both switches! Our '14 CD has them while the 15 has the paddles. And by Boxster S had them. I agree, the paddles look better but the wheel switches WORK better.
Be careful what you wish for....
If you "don't see the friggin point", why didn't you get a manual? What's the point of paying extra for something that works better and faster than you ever will and then killing that functionality so you can get the feeling that you're shifting? Sure, now and then, great. But since you NEVER drive in automatic, why spend the money?
Some would argue that you can't drive these cars in a true sporting nature with an automatic. And yes, even in the M mode, it's an automatic. Coming out of a descent turn, you should be in Sport or Sport+ and let the thing shift for you; you'll get better performance and better lap times.
Even with the "thumbers" (and I agree, they are always right there; see above), I keep coming back to the question of why you would spend an extra $3 grand+ for something and then disable it?? And make yourself slower.
Racing cars have the paddles fixed to the wheel, and to me that’s the reference for a “proper sports car”. I can’t really imagine how one can be in a situation where the car is in the middle of a turn, having to shift gears, and the hands are not placed properly. Downshifting happens before turn-in, especially if the turn is tight, and upshifting is done while straightening the wheel.
And agree, if you are shifting when you have so much wheel rotation that you can figure out your up vs downshift, youre driving improperly.
Then again, its been clear for years that the average porsche owner is not much of a performance driver and their version of spirited driving is, well, not very spirited. they will be the first to tell you though how xyz mod increased grip and feel and yadda yadda.
12-02-2018, 10:48 AM
#78
Racer
Not surprised. There are so many outdated requirements and rules just for lighting on cars in the US that dictates what designers can do. I know that’s why the sequential turn signals we see on Audi’s in other countries have to be supplemented with a solid light here. Something about the amount of surface area that initially lights up when activated... Just one example. I know there are a lot more. That doesn’t even get into other requirements like pedestrian impact that effect bumpers, hoods, etc.
12-02-2018, 04:11 PM
#79
Burning Brakes
...
Another funny and frequent whine I've seen here. Everyone wished for the paddle shifters - you know, to be like real race cars... er, because they look better. Functionally, though, the older push-pull switches in the pre-paddle wheels are far, far more functional. No matter which way your wheel is turned, you know which direction to push or pull to get the gear you want, 99% of the time without having to take your hands off the wheel. OK, maybe the function could have been reversed, but we're all smart folks here and can certainly learn how they work. Seemed pretty logical to me, though: push to go faster, pull to go slower. Forward=go forward faster; Back=slow the forward progress. Simple. And it worked the same on both switches! Our '14 CD has them while the 15 has the paddles. And by Boxster S had them. I agree, the paddles look better but the wheel switches WORK better.
Be careful what you wish for....
Another funny and frequent whine I've seen here. Everyone wished for the paddle shifters - you know, to be like real race cars... er, because they look better. Functionally, though, the older push-pull switches in the pre-paddle wheels are far, far more functional. No matter which way your wheel is turned, you know which direction to push or pull to get the gear you want, 99% of the time without having to take your hands off the wheel. OK, maybe the function could have been reversed, but we're all smart folks here and can certainly learn how they work. Seemed pretty logical to me, though: push to go faster, pull to go slower. Forward=go forward faster; Back=slow the forward progress. Simple. And it worked the same on both switches! Our '14 CD has them while the 15 has the paddles. And by Boxster S had them. I agree, the paddles look better but the wheel switches WORK better.
Be careful what you wish for....
Paddle vs switches was something I had a long look into. Coming from 3 MT 991s into TTS world I had concerns with PDK. It took me number of drives in different PDK cars before I met an older gentleman who used to race Porsches for years (obviously MT cars then) and who became a PDK enthusiast. He drives his GTS daily for 30 miles each way. He was the one who convinced me that PDK is at least a valid alternative and in his mind a superior to a MT. He taught me how to use paddles properly. He gave me his car to play with for as long as I wanted. He also gave me another one with the switches. He said that he himself hated the PDK till Porsche came with the paddles. I feel same way now. I use paddles in my TTS and could not see myself using the switches. So at least paddles should resolve the shifting for 992. However, the shaver still is a quirk.
12-02-2018, 05:46 PM
#80
Racing cars have the paddles fixed to the wheel, and to me that’s the reference for a “proper sports car”. I can’t really imagine how one can be in a situation where the car is in the middle of a turn, having to shift gears, and the hands are not placed properly. Downshifting happens before turn-in, especially if the turn is tight, and upshifting is done while straightening the wheel.
12-03-2018, 01:30 AM
#84
For those of you comparing F1/WEC car steering wheels... firstly you only slightly turn those wheels when you are turning the car. You never make big wheel rotations like you do in a road car. Secondly another reason the F1 cars have paddles on the back of the wheel is so they can be removed easily with the wheel to allow the driver to get in and out of the car. And lastly... where would you even permanently fix paddles in an F1/WEC car anyways?!?!?
On a road car... large fixed paddles are the way to go... just like Ferrari does.
On a road car... large fixed paddles are the way to go... just like Ferrari does.
12-03-2018, 03:31 AM
#85
Rennlist Member
Oh, and feigning not knowing what a CD is? Nice touch. Not believable, but nice touch.
12-03-2018, 04:50 AM
#86
Instructor
Again, no need to switch gears while the steering wheel is turned excessively, unless 1) you are doing something wrong, or 2) you are Doug DeMuro.
On the road, before a tight turn, 1) you downshift so the engine is in the right gear to enter the turn 2) you turn 3) you straighten the wheel while you accelerate on that same gear, 4) you upshift as you gain speed.
Alternatively you let PDK do the job for you. If you find yourself having to shift while your arms are crossed (crossing the arms is bad driving technique, too), then PDK will do a better job at selecting the right gear for turn-in and it will figure out better when to upshift.
Check also the distance and the wide arch movement your fingers have to go through to shift with paddles attached to the steering column as opposed to paddles attached to the steering wheel.
On the road, before a tight turn, 1) you downshift so the engine is in the right gear to enter the turn 2) you turn 3) you straighten the wheel while you accelerate on that same gear, 4) you upshift as you gain speed.
Alternatively you let PDK do the job for you. If you find yourself having to shift while your arms are crossed (crossing the arms is bad driving technique, too), then PDK will do a better job at selecting the right gear for turn-in and it will figure out better when to upshift.
Check also the distance and the wide arch movement your fingers have to go through to shift with paddles attached to the steering column as opposed to paddles attached to the steering wheel.
12-03-2018, 05:18 AM
#87
The nubbin represents the atrophying of driver involvement / driver-centric cars.
The street 991.1/.2 GT3 PDKs were designed to mimic the GT3 Cup sequential gear lever. It's ok on the racetrack to have electropneumatic paddles to operate sequentials: there is not a lot of drifting or 1 and 2 corners (nomenclature for the acuity of the corners), but in rally, paddles are not your friend when you are doing some wild handwork as noted earlier in this thread. The GT3s (et al) have launch control as another nod to rally cars. I am disappointed that the gear lever has shrunken to a vestigial nubbin, soon to be extinct. Hopefully, at least one more generation of GT3/GT4s will have a PDK lever so I can rally it properly.
Imagine trying to grab paddles coming out of some of these tight corners (and, yes, you sometimes switch gears in the corner rallying).
The street 991.1/.2 GT3 PDKs were designed to mimic the GT3 Cup sequential gear lever. It's ok on the racetrack to have electropneumatic paddles to operate sequentials: there is not a lot of drifting or 1 and 2 corners (nomenclature for the acuity of the corners), but in rally, paddles are not your friend when you are doing some wild handwork as noted earlier in this thread. The GT3s (et al) have launch control as another nod to rally cars. I am disappointed that the gear lever has shrunken to a vestigial nubbin, soon to be extinct. Hopefully, at least one more generation of GT3/GT4s will have a PDK lever so I can rally it properly.
Imagine trying to grab paddles coming out of some of these tight corners (and, yes, you sometimes switch gears in the corner rallying).
12-03-2018, 05:48 AM
#88
Rennlist Member
I did something similar in Sweden and the new 911's lack of a shifter will be genuinely missed in these conditions:
12-03-2018, 12:58 PM
#89
Rennlist Member
I really want to do one of those arctic driving schools.
Did they tell you to use manual mode? Did you try it in PDK/auto mode?
Another cool video.
Maybe the nubbin is to express confidence that the PDK can do it all for you? It is incredibly fast and crisp....
Did they tell you to use manual mode? Did you try it in PDK/auto mode?
The nubbin represents the atrophying of driver involvement / driver-centric cars.
The street 991.1/.2 GT3 PDKs were designed to mimic the GT3 Cup sequential gear lever. It's ok on the racetrack to have electropneumatic paddles to operate sequentials: there is not a lot of drifting or 1 and 2 corners (nomenclature for the acuity of the corners), but in rally, paddles are not your friend when you are doing some wild handwork as noted earlier in this thread. The GT3s (et al) have launch control as another nod to rally cars. I am disappointed that the gear lever has shrunken to a vestigial nubbin, soon to be extinct. Hopefully, at least one more generation of GT3/GT4s will have a PDK lever so I can rally it properly.
Imagine trying to grab paddles coming out of some of these tight corners (and, yes, you sometimes switch gears in the corner rallying).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhtJCXq3oxE
The street 991.1/.2 GT3 PDKs were designed to mimic the GT3 Cup sequential gear lever. It's ok on the racetrack to have electropneumatic paddles to operate sequentials: there is not a lot of drifting or 1 and 2 corners (nomenclature for the acuity of the corners), but in rally, paddles are not your friend when you are doing some wild handwork as noted earlier in this thread. The GT3s (et al) have launch control as another nod to rally cars. I am disappointed that the gear lever has shrunken to a vestigial nubbin, soon to be extinct. Hopefully, at least one more generation of GT3/GT4s will have a PDK lever so I can rally it properly.
Imagine trying to grab paddles coming out of some of these tight corners (and, yes, you sometimes switch gears in the corner rallying).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhtJCXq3oxE
Maybe the nubbin is to express confidence that the PDK can do it all for you? It is incredibly fast and crisp....
12-03-2018, 01:34 PM
#90
Rennlist Member
I believe it was mentioned in the briefing that using the stick was recommended. Never tried auto, I am sure it would kind of work but the way it does its thing I guess it would often be in too low of a gear. On ice it's also useful to be able to use a wide range of throttle positions without it changing gear.