Reviving the seemingly dead 992
04-12-2021, 06:03 PM
#16
Antigravity -
best.explanation.ever.
I surmise 99% of Porsche service techs could use this info. Thanks for sharing. Which Micro jump start unit would you suggest for a 911 Li+ battery owner?
thx
best.explanation.ever.
I surmise 99% of Porsche service techs could use this info. Thanks for sharing. Which Micro jump start unit would you suggest for a 911 Li+ battery owner?
thx
04-12-2021, 06:54 PM
#17
We, Antigravity Batteries make aftermarket lightweight Lithium Batteries for Porsches and all other Cars too, so I'll add some information to this excellent post about what is going on with a Lithium Battery if over-discharged and they go into Protection/Sleep mode and shut down. I'll add a few things about Chargers too.
A high quality Modern Automotive Lithium Battery, like Porsches latest Lithium Battery, or Antigravity's Lithium Batteries have what is called a Battery Management System (BMS) inside the Battery. It is basically a Circuit Board that has settings programmed to put the battery into a Protection Mode if Over-Discharged, Over-Charged, Short-Circuited and other potential issues that could damage the Battery. For an Over-Discharge scenario (the most common issue) the battery usually goes into what we will call a SLEEP MODE where it basically shuts itself down so that any load or parasitic draw on the battery cannot continue to drain the battery. The reason the Lithium Battery does this is because it protects the battery's Lithium Cells from being damaged. The fact is ANY type of Battery be it Lead/Acid, or Lithium is damaged by being over discharged below a certain voltage usually in the 8-9v range, but being conservative the Lithium Batteries are usually set to go to Sleep//Protection Mode in the 11v~12v range since that is basically safely away from being damaged yet still has some power left within the battery.
So when the BMS goes into Sleep/Protection Mode and shuts down the battery due to being Over-Discharged, it will need to be awakened by seeing sufficient Voltage and Current to know it can WAKE-UP to be operative and accept a charge again. So in effect the Battery's BMS needs to see a certain voltage to awaken and then begin charging. It is usually about 12.5v or above, so connecting a battery source that has that is 12.5v or above to your Lithium battery for a few seconds will usually will awaken it. But keep in mind a Modern Charger will in most all circumstances NOT awaken your Lithium Battery because if the Charger does not see Voltage at its clamps then it will not put out any Charging Voltage/Current. So simply Connecting most Modern chargers will NOT work because these modern chargers have a safety feature that does not allow them to put out energy UNLESS they see some voltage at their clamps to recognize they are connected to a battery. Additionally Modern Chargers start at a very low voltage then ramp up to higher voltage and current... so they are not starting at 12.5v which is needed to awaken the BMS. The same is true for many of the small Lithium Jump Starters because they have built in protections at the clamps..., so they also will not send energy to the clamps unless they see some voltage from a battery. But some of these new Lithium Jump Starter such as our Antigravity MICRO-START models do have a bypass button to press that will allow voltage to the clamps and in most cases can awaken the Lithium Battery. Also note that SOME Charger companies are now putting a BMS RE-SET button on their Chargers that will send the appropriate PULSE of energy to awaken the BMS on a Lithium Automobile Battery. In fact we developed this with Optimate Chargers because we wanted a Charger that could do this on the fly.... meaning you simply press a specific "BMS RESET" button located on the Charger and it provide a PULSE of energy to the Battery to specifically awaken the Battery's BMS from it's SLEEP/PROTECTION mode... the Optimate unit is called the TM-271 that has this feature.
So I just wanted to explain that to awaken a BMS on most Lithium Batteries requires Voltage to be applied to the terminals that is usually above the 12.5v range to wake it up, and just putting a charger on it won't do it because of the Chargers safety features.
Now to toot our own horn a bit.... at Antigravity Batteries we have incorporated a much more user friendly system to awaken our batteries. You can do it Wirelessly with the Keyfob that comes with our Battery, or use the Button that is located directly on our Battery to wake it up manually. So with our Lithium battery you never would be locked out of the Frunk or have to use the Fuse box area since you can wake up it up with our Wireless Keyfob. And last our battery has a RESERVE that allows you to start the Car even after its fully discharged which Porsche Battery can't do. Unfortunately the new Porsches using their new Lithium Battery have a LIN BUS system that plugs into the Car itself to transmit voltage data and information so you cannot use aftermarket Batteries as a replacement yet.
A high quality Modern Automotive Lithium Battery, like Porsches latest Lithium Battery, or Antigravity's Lithium Batteries have what is called a Battery Management System (BMS) inside the Battery. It is basically a Circuit Board that has settings programmed to put the battery into a Protection Mode if Over-Discharged, Over-Charged, Short-Circuited and other potential issues that could damage the Battery. For an Over-Discharge scenario (the most common issue) the battery usually goes into what we will call a SLEEP MODE where it basically shuts itself down so that any load or parasitic draw on the battery cannot continue to drain the battery. The reason the Lithium Battery does this is because it protects the battery's Lithium Cells from being damaged. The fact is ANY type of Battery be it Lead/Acid, or Lithium is damaged by being over discharged below a certain voltage usually in the 8-9v range, but being conservative the Lithium Batteries are usually set to go to Sleep//Protection Mode in the 11v~12v range since that is basically safely away from being damaged yet still has some power left within the battery.
So when the BMS goes into Sleep/Protection Mode and shuts down the battery due to being Over-Discharged, it will need to be awakened by seeing sufficient Voltage and Current to know it can WAKE-UP to be operative and accept a charge again. So in effect the Battery's BMS needs to see a certain voltage to awaken and then begin charging. It is usually about 12.5v or above, so connecting a battery source that has that is 12.5v or above to your Lithium battery for a few seconds will usually will awaken it. But keep in mind a Modern Charger will in most all circumstances NOT awaken your Lithium Battery because if the Charger does not see Voltage at its clamps then it will not put out any Charging Voltage/Current. So simply Connecting most Modern chargers will NOT work because these modern chargers have a safety feature that does not allow them to put out energy UNLESS they see some voltage at their clamps to recognize they are connected to a battery. Additionally Modern Chargers start at a very low voltage then ramp up to higher voltage and current... so they are not starting at 12.5v which is needed to awaken the BMS. The same is true for many of the small Lithium Jump Starters because they have built in protections at the clamps..., so they also will not send energy to the clamps unless they see some voltage from a battery. But some of these new Lithium Jump Starter such as our Antigravity MICRO-START models do have a bypass button to press that will allow voltage to the clamps and in most cases can awaken the Lithium Battery. Also note that SOME Charger companies are now putting a BMS RE-SET button on their Chargers that will send the appropriate PULSE of energy to awaken the BMS on a Lithium Automobile Battery. In fact we developed this with Optimate Chargers because we wanted a Charger that could do this on the fly.... meaning you simply press a specific "BMS RESET" button located on the Charger and it provide a PULSE of energy to the Battery to specifically awaken the Battery's BMS from it's SLEEP/PROTECTION mode... the Optimate unit is called the TM-271 that has this feature.
So I just wanted to explain that to awaken a BMS on most Lithium Batteries requires Voltage to be applied to the terminals that is usually above the 12.5v range to wake it up, and just putting a charger on it won't do it because of the Chargers safety features.
Now to toot our own horn a bit.... at Antigravity Batteries we have incorporated a much more user friendly system to awaken our batteries. You can do it Wirelessly with the Keyfob that comes with our Battery, or use the Button that is located directly on our Battery to wake it up manually. So with our Lithium battery you never would be locked out of the Frunk or have to use the Fuse box area since you can wake up it up with our Wireless Keyfob. And last our battery has a RESERVE that allows you to start the Car even after its fully discharged which Porsche Battery can't do. Unfortunately the new Porsches using their new Lithium Battery have a LIN BUS system that plugs into the Car itself to transmit voltage data and information so you cannot use aftermarket Batteries as a replacement yet.
thats a very good explanation.
For our 992 with lithium battery, which model of your micro jump starter should we be looking for ?
04-12-2021, 07:03 PM
#18
RL Community Team
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
My understanding is that, as of now, Porsche cars with lithium batteries won't work with aftermarket units. Antigravity folks are very knowledgeable and may confirm or deny.
04-12-2021, 11:08 PM
#19
Premium Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
As far as our MICRO-STARTS we always suggest the XP-10 model being it has alot of extra power for the starts but also on the initial start and powering up of the Porsches there is a fairly significant draw on the battery from the electronics so we go with the XP-10... on older models it was lower and the XP-1 was perfectly fine....
The following users liked this post:
Brad911 (04-13-2021)
04-12-2021, 11:14 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
If Manny can do it... anyone can... 🤣
Last edited by smiles11; 04-12-2021 at 11:16 PM.
04-12-2021, 11:34 PM
#21
Premium Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
But I can tell you that the Cars with the new Porsche Lithium Batteries do have a Plug that plugs directly into the Battery itself. So this plug that goes into the battery is for Lin Bus System so it can know all specifics going on within the battery, such as State of Charge, Voltage, Current going in and out of the Battery and other data they would like. Then with Lin Bus that info is communicated the Carscharging system so the car know exactly when and how much voltage/current to supply to the battery for the most efficient charging. The reason for all this is to charge the battery as efficiently as possible to allow for better emissions and mileage from the Cars to meet the Regulations that keep getting stricter. For example back in the day the Alternators just constantly charged the battery, this created drag on the motor and a lessening of Mileage while creating more emissions, yet with these newer smart alternators and these detailed charging systems in the cars they only charge during braking or deceleration periods so that the engine is not getting any drag on it which increases mileage and better emissions.
Now as far as LOGIC tells me, Porsche had to have designed a way for the Car to use a regular AGM Battery as a fail safe I have to assume. My reason for saying this is because what if your Porsche Lithium battery goes bad while you are traveling in some small town, that has no access to a Porsche Lithium Battery? Does this mean you would have to wait a week for delivery of this Porsche Lihtium Battery to this town.... I don't think so, I think Porsche had to have considered this, and make it so you can swap a Lead/Acid Battery in there to be able to get home. But maybe it would dis-able the rear wheel steering or some other features. So my thinking is you can program the car to use a AGM Battery so you can get out of this type of emergency and get home or to a Porsche Dealer.
04-13-2021, 12:04 AM
#22
Rennlist Member
My friend and I were trying to do the same thing to revive his 992 which hasn’t really been driven during the winter months. We couldn’t make it work but since we didn’t have a battery or regular jump starter kit, we used both a power bank size jump start kit and the battery tender that came with the car, no luck. Probably will need to call porsche roadside assistance tomorrow to figure it out. That’s quite a frustrating experience to revive a dead car battery compared to everything else we had to deal in the past.
The following users liked this post:
G650 (04-19-2021)
04-13-2021, 01:39 AM
#24
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I used a Touring Items Type S Lithium Ion jump starter that I picked up at Costco for $49 (on sale). I had it hooked to the 992 when we started it but the car started again - after shut off - without the jumper so I'm assuming the battery was asleep - not dead. Let's be clear - with the 992 you must get the trunk open to awaken or jump the battery. The terminal inside the fuse panel will only get power to the electronic latch. It will not awaken the battery. This may be getting a bit basic - but you can't see the battery at all when you lift the lid. There's a plastic cover that must be removed. Pop it up from the front (closest to the frunk well) and then pull it out toward the front of the car (it might get hung up on the filler cap for the windshield wiper fluid so check to make sure the cap is secure when you finish). Looking at the battery - you'll also see the ground terminal for jump starting the car to the right of the battery (about as far to the right as the center of the steering wheel except in the trunk area). Here you'll encounter a new issue. The positive terminal on the battery is on the left side of the battery. If you try to use the jump start terminal instead of the negative battery terminal - you'll find it's too far to the right for the cables on most portable jumper boxes to reach the positive battery terminal and the jump start negative ground. We hooked the short jumper cables to the battery terminals, then plugged the cables into the jumper box, then turned the box on (to avoid sparks). The battery woke up right away. Thanks to the folks at Antigravity. Your information confirms what I thought was going on with the battery we awakened. A couple more thoughts. The pop out terminal in the fuse box has a hot contact surface on the sides but NOT on the top or bottom when it is pulled out. If you don't have a flashlight - the intuitive way to clamp onto the terminal would probably result in clamping onto plastic and getting no response. With a flashlight you can see the metallic contact point but the entire pop out terminal is not metal. Also - the pop out terminal appeared somewhat fragile to me. Enough that really strong alligator clips on some jumper cables might damage it. Here again I might be revealing obvious information but better that then to have someone damage the pop out terminal before getting the frunk open - in which case you're truly screwed. Better to say it here than to have someone standing next to their car with a broken piece of red plastic that was once the pop out terminal saying "why didn't someone mention this thing was easy to break?" Happy motoring.
The following users liked this post:
oneof5 (04-13-2021)
04-19-2021, 01:06 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
I was told specifically by the Service Tech at my Porsche Dealer that due to the LIN BUS feature of these newest Lithium Batteries that aftermarket Batteries won't work. But he also stated that Porsche does not give the tech info on how this works, they basically just tell the tech how to TEST the battery only.
But I can tell you that the Cars with the new Porsche Lithium Batteries do have a Plug that plugs directly into the Battery itself. So this plug that goes into the battery is for Lin Bus System so it can know all specifics going on within the battery, such as State of Charge, Voltage, Current going in and out of the Battery and other data they would like. Then with Lin Bus that info is communicated the Carscharging system so the car know exactly when and how much voltage/current to supply to the battery for the most efficient charging. The reason for all this is to charge the battery as efficiently as possible to allow for better emissions and mileage from the Cars to meet the Regulations that keep getting stricter. For example back in the day the Alternators just constantly charged the battery, this created drag on the motor and a lessening of Mileage while creating more emissions, yet with these newer smart alternators and these detailed charging systems in the cars they only charge during braking or deceleration periods so that the engine is not getting any drag on it which increases mileage and better emissions.
Now as far as LOGIC tells me, Porsche had to have designed a way for the Car to use a regular AGM Battery as a fail safe I have to assume. My reason for saying this is because what if your Porsche Lithium battery goes bad while you are traveling in some small town, that has no access to a Porsche Lithium Battery? Does this mean you would have to wait a week for delivery of this Porsche Lihtium Battery to this town.... I don't think so, I think Porsche had to have considered this, and make it so you can swap a Lead/Acid Battery in there to be able to get home. But maybe it would dis-able the rear wheel steering or some other features. So my thinking is you can program the car to use a AGM Battery so you can get out of this type of emergency and get home or to a Porsche Dealer.
But I can tell you that the Cars with the new Porsche Lithium Batteries do have a Plug that plugs directly into the Battery itself. So this plug that goes into the battery is for Lin Bus System so it can know all specifics going on within the battery, such as State of Charge, Voltage, Current going in and out of the Battery and other data they would like. Then with Lin Bus that info is communicated the Carscharging system so the car know exactly when and how much voltage/current to supply to the battery for the most efficient charging. The reason for all this is to charge the battery as efficiently as possible to allow for better emissions and mileage from the Cars to meet the Regulations that keep getting stricter. For example back in the day the Alternators just constantly charged the battery, this created drag on the motor and a lessening of Mileage while creating more emissions, yet with these newer smart alternators and these detailed charging systems in the cars they only charge during braking or deceleration periods so that the engine is not getting any drag on it which increases mileage and better emissions.
Now as far as LOGIC tells me, Porsche had to have designed a way for the Car to use a regular AGM Battery as a fail safe I have to assume. My reason for saying this is because what if your Porsche Lithium battery goes bad while you are traveling in some small town, that has no access to a Porsche Lithium Battery? Does this mean you would have to wait a week for delivery of this Porsche Lihtium Battery to this town.... I don't think so, I think Porsche had to have considered this, and make it so you can swap a Lead/Acid Battery in there to be able to get home. But maybe it would dis-able the rear wheel steering or some other features. So my thinking is you can program the car to use a AGM Battery so you can get out of this type of emergency and get home or to a Porsche Dealer.
New Antigravity Battery - DOA - Page 3 - Rennlist - Porsche Discussion Forums"
The following users liked this post:
Mark in Baltimore (04-19-2021)
04-19-2021, 04:56 PM
#26
My 991.2 GTS sits in the garage for weeks at a time - especially this past winter, with covid as well. I have never used a battery anything and it always starts right up.
Same with all previous cars - though I did plug the Aston in occasionally because it was so persnickety about everything.
I haven’t yet figured out why this is a problem for so many others.
Same with all previous cars - though I did plug the Aston in occasionally because it was so persnickety about everything.
I haven’t yet figured out why this is a problem for so many others.
01-23-2022, 04:32 PM
#28
I was told specifically by the Service Tech at my Porsche Dealer that due to the LIN BUS feature of these newest Lithium Batteries that aftermarket Batteries won't work. But he also stated that Porsche does not give the tech info on how this works, they basically just tell the tech how to TEST the battery only.
But I can tell you that the Cars with the new Porsche Lithium Batteries do have a Plug that plugs directly into the Battery itself. So this plug that goes into the battery is for Lin Bus System so it can know all specifics going on within the battery, such as State of Charge, Voltage, Current going in and out of the Battery and other data they would like. Then with Lin Bus that info is communicated the Carscharging system so the car know exactly when and how much voltage/current to supply to the battery for the most efficient charging. The reason for all this is to charge the battery as efficiently as possible to allow for better emissions and mileage from the Cars to meet the Regulations that keep getting stricter. For example back in the day the Alternators just constantly charged the battery, this created drag on the motor and a lessening of Mileage while creating more emissions, yet with these newer smart alternators and these detailed charging systems in the cars they only charge during braking or deceleration periods so that the engine is not getting any drag on it which increases mileage and better emissions.
Now as far as LOGIC tells me, Porsche had to have designed a way for the Car to use a regular AGM Battery as a fail safe I have to assume. My reason for saying this is because what if your Porsche Lithium battery goes bad while you are traveling in some small town, that has no access to a Porsche Lithium Battery? Does this mean you would have to wait a week for delivery of this Porsche Lihtium Battery to this town.... I don't think so, I think Porsche had to have considered this, and make it so you can swap a Lead/Acid Battery in there to be able to get home. But maybe it would dis-able the rear wheel steering or some other features. So my thinking is you can program the car to use a AGM Battery so you can get out of this type of emergency and get home or to a Porsche Dealer.
But I can tell you that the Cars with the new Porsche Lithium Batteries do have a Plug that plugs directly into the Battery itself. So this plug that goes into the battery is for Lin Bus System so it can know all specifics going on within the battery, such as State of Charge, Voltage, Current going in and out of the Battery and other data they would like. Then with Lin Bus that info is communicated the Carscharging system so the car know exactly when and how much voltage/current to supply to the battery for the most efficient charging. The reason for all this is to charge the battery as efficiently as possible to allow for better emissions and mileage from the Cars to meet the Regulations that keep getting stricter. For example back in the day the Alternators just constantly charged the battery, this created drag on the motor and a lessening of Mileage while creating more emissions, yet with these newer smart alternators and these detailed charging systems in the cars they only charge during braking or deceleration periods so that the engine is not getting any drag on it which increases mileage and better emissions.
Now as far as LOGIC tells me, Porsche had to have designed a way for the Car to use a regular AGM Battery as a fail safe I have to assume. My reason for saying this is because what if your Porsche Lithium battery goes bad while you are traveling in some small town, that has no access to a Porsche Lithium Battery? Does this mean you would have to wait a week for delivery of this Porsche Lihtium Battery to this town.... I don't think so, I think Porsche had to have considered this, and make it so you can swap a Lead/Acid Battery in there to be able to get home. But maybe it would dis-able the rear wheel steering or some other features. So my thinking is you can program the car to use a AGM Battery so you can get out of this type of emergency and get home or to a Porsche Dealer.
If a standard AGM battery is installed in the vehicle, a warning message will be displayed because there is no LIN communication. The power supply network switches to emergency operation.
Implying maybe there is indeed a limp-home, fail safe mode to use non LiOn batteries, in a pinch.
M
01-24-2022, 06:23 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
If you’re not driving your car for weeks at a time, you should have it on a battery maintainer.
Owners of 992s with Lithium batteries should be particularly diligent with this, because if you let the battery discharge too far, you will have to replace it and that will set you back a few grand. No joke.
Owners of 992s with Lithium batteries should be particularly diligent with this, because if you let the battery discharge too far, you will have to replace it and that will set you back a few grand. No joke.
01-24-2022, 09:09 PM
#30
Roughly $1650 usd to be more precise. Plus shipping and taxes.
M
M