Who has 100k and NO top end rebuild?? - Page 4

ReinerFink · 10-28-2009, 02:47 PM

I'd guess alot of the fear around "needs top end rebuild" comes from the SAI causing emissions failures. This is caused by the leaking exhaust valve guides. So, even if you have a '95 and you'll never get a SAI failure, you really do have the same physical condition (this would be my boat).

The reality is that at ~130k you really should consider doing a rebuild. My friends '96 is opened up to the case (which we are not going to split), and the rod bearings on the inner rods are in pretty bad shape. These are the last to get oiling and therefore take the most wear. There are certain parts that really should have been made with better materials: valve guides, rod bolts and bearings, and valve springs are a few at the top of the list. Also, because the guides are not sealing well, this will cause more wear on the valves themselves, etc etc.

Even if you are picking up a 993 used for "cheap" ($23k or such), spending an additional $4k-8k going over the engine when needed is just a fact of life. If you replace the bits with the "better" ones, you can go another 130k or more without worries.

If you try to push your luck, then everything might be fine, or you might hole your engine when the rod bolt gives up etc. There is about the right mix of science and religion on this topic -- kind of like the "what oil should I use" threads. To each his own... my own is when I save up some more $$ in about a year or so, I am going to do a top end rebuild even though things seem fine from the drivers seat right now.

-reiner

VNTGSPD · 10-28-2009, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReinerFink

The reality is that at ~130k you really should consider doing a rebuild. My friends '96 is opened up to the case (which we are not going to split), and the rod bearings on the inner rods are in pretty bad shape. These are the last to get oiling and therefore take the most wear. There are certain parts that really should have been made with better materials: valve guides, rod bolts and bearings, and valve springs are a few at the top of the list. Also, because the guides are not sealing well, this will cause more wear on the valves themselves, etc etc.

Even if you are picking up a 993 used for "cheap" ($23k or such), spending an additional $4k-8k going over the engine when needed is just a fact of life. If you replace the bits with the "better" ones, you can go another 130k or more without worries.

If you try to push your luck, then everything might be fine, or you might hole your engine when the rod bolt gives up etc. There is about the right mix of science and religion on this topic -- kind of like the "what oil should I use" threads. To each his own... my own is when I save up some more $$ in about a year or so, I am going to do a top end rebuild even though things seem fine from the drivers seat right now.

-reiner

Interesting comments. These seem to go against most of what I have heard about these engines. Has anyone ever even heard of a car non-track car (or stock motor track car for that matter) throwing a rod???

Not trying to be argumentative, but certainly curious about this.

briefescape · 10-28-2009, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReinerFink

I'd guess alot of the fear around "needs top end rebuild" comes from the SAI causing emissions failures. This is caused by the leaking exhaust valve guides. So, even if you have a '95 and you'll never get a SAI failure, you really do have the same physical condition (this would be my boat).

The reality is that at ~130k you really should consider doing a rebuild. My friends '96 is opened up to the case (which we are not going to split), and the rod bearings on the inner rods are in pretty bad shape. These are the last to get oiling and therefore take the most wear. There are certain parts that really should have been made with better materials: valve guides, rod bolts and bearings, and valve springs are a few at the top of the list. Also, because the guides are not sealing well, this will cause more wear on the valves themselves, etc etc.

Even if you are picking up a 993 used for "cheap" ($23k or such), spending an additional $4k-8k going over the engine when needed is just a fact of life. If you replace the bits with the "better" ones, you can go another 130k or more without worries.

If you try to push your luck, then everything might be fine, or you might hole your engine when the rod bolt gives up etc. There is about the right mix of science and religion on this topic -- kind of like the "what oil should I use" threads. To each his own... my own is when I save up some more $$ in about a year or so, I am going to do a top end rebuild even though things seem fine from the drivers seat right now.

-reiner

Sure OK

Robert-VanBC · 10-28-2009, 03:19 PM

Just turned 100k miles on my'95 daily driver. I had the clutch changed for the first time at 98k miles and when the engine was out had all seals/gaskets replaced. I use Redline 10/40 year round and have not had a drop on the garage since the seals/gasket replacement. No more burning oil smell (which I had grown used to and thought it was a right of passage). Still pulls strong so my advice is "if it aint broke, don't fix it".

Matt Davies · 10-28-2009, 03:57 PM

As has been discussed before, there is a massive amount of luck involved. Some engines were put together better at the factory. While some needed guides at 20k miles ten years ago, some are at over 200k and still running strong. Oil consumption, rather than mileage should be the deciding factor over whether to do a top end. From what I have seen, 3.6 aircooled engines with overly-worn guides exhibit a rapid oil consumption rise, and regardless of what's on the odometer, the need for a valve job becomes glaringly obvious. Perhaps that's why I have never heard of one of these engines grenading due to worn guides?

911C2 · 10-28-2009, 09:50 PM

97K and no work done.I have owned the car for 7 years. The car had 60K when I bought it so I know there has not been any work done. I am the third owner and the car was serviced at the same dealer the entire time, actually the same dealer sold it all three times. No clutch either.

Had it on track a few weeks ago and there is no power loss.
But then the car is white and everyone knows the white ones have the strongest motors. You dont believe me, just look at the cars they race, they are all white.

jo-hans · 10-29-2009, 04:28 AM

212,500 km (132,000 miles) no top end only Motul running strong low oil consumption.

mongrelcat · 10-29-2009, 04:43 AM

110K miles, no top-end yet. When the needle on the gauge refuses to budge off the bottom consistently, I know it's time to add a 1/2 qt. That takes the gauge to about 1/3rd when it feel like registering (hot+idle+level,etc.,) verified as 1/2 on the dipstick. She burns 1/2 qt. per 600-1000 miles around town, 1/2 qt. per 2000+ miles while touring.

M1 15w50 currently, probably switch to Motul 300V 10w40 next oil change (and run 300V 15w50 in the Summer.)

berni29 · 10-29-2009, 10:02 PM

Hi There

I am looking at and hopefully buying a 1995 993 with 183k on the clock and no engine work done at all. Just regular oil changes. It has only had a couple of front dampers in that time so I will be polybushing the suspension and changing the dampers for Bilsteins immediately (if bought). And getting the 4 wheel align.

And the owner says it does not use much oil and he does not have to top up between services. The engine does leak a little here and there.

All the best

Berni

Johan928 · 10-30-2009, 10:13 AM

Berni,
I think there's a lister with ~250k miles on his 993, with no engine work either, so it's possible to run for a long time :-)
Good luck with the car if you buy it :-)

timothymoffat · 10-30-2009, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by briefescape

Two 95 993 one has 130k miles and the other has 178k kilometers and both no top end done or oil usage . Motul oil only for these babies

And both get driven!

Quote:

Originally Posted by jo-hans

212,500 km (132,000 miles) no top end only Motul running strong low oil consumption.

I concur.

berni29 · 11-02-2009, 11:18 PM

Hi there

I did buy the car (and got lightly rear ended 1 hr and 5 miles later).

Just to say the engine is pretty quiet, you can sometimes hear the tappets on startup for a fraction of a second, oil pressure is just over 1.5 bar when properly hot (oil cool fan on) and goes to 5 pretty much by 2k rpm.

It has had semi synth 15/40 every 10k for the last 130k

Berni

pcarhombre · 11-02-2009, 11:44 PM

Imagine I'm whispering this. Better yet, pretend someone else told you this. I don't want fate to know I exist. 112k and just alot of praying...and lovin' my Zephyr!

black ice · 11-02-2009, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReinerFink

The reality is that at ~130k you really should consider doing a rebuild. My friends '96 is opened up to the case (which we are not going to split), and the rod bearings on the inner rods are in pretty bad shape. These are the last to get oiling and therefore take the most wear. There are certain parts that really should have been made with better materials: valve guides, rod bolts and bearings, and valve springs are a few at the top of the list. Also, because the guides are not sealing well, this will cause more wear on the valves themselves, etc etc.

Your comments are anecdotal. My anecdote - just turned 130K today on my daily driver; burn 1 qt per 10K miles reliably. Engine has never been apart.

dave

richardew · 11-03-2009, 12:50 AM

Quote:

I can't remember his screen name, but there's a guy with an Aventurine C4(?) with snow all over it in his profile pic with well over 200K, maybe 250K. Maybe he'll chime in here also.

Geez. The car is IRIS BLUE. THe snow moustache is from driving in a snowstorm for 3 hours through the Appalachian mountains. Blizzaks rule!

I'm burning a quart every 4-5K. I change the oil every 15K. I believe that a proper warmup is the key and it helps that I've been the only driver. Looking foward to 300K.

10-28-2009, 03:19 PM	#49
Robert-VanBC Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Vancouver, BC Posts: 26	Just turned 100k miles on my'95 daily driver. I had the clutch changed for the first time at 98k miles and when the engine was out had all seals/gaskets replaced. I use Redline 10/40 year round and have not had a drop on the garage since the seals/gasket replacement. No more burning oil smell (which I had grown used to and thought it was a right of passage). Still pulls strong so my advice is "if it aint broke, don't fix it". __________________ Robert __________________ '95 993 Midnight Blue '86 635CSi BMW '04 Honda ST1300

10-28-2009, 03:57 PM	#50
Matt Davies Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: So. CT Posts: 824	As has been discussed before, there is a massive amount of luck involved. Some engines were put together better at the factory. While some needed guides at 20k miles ten years ago, some are at over 200k and still running strong. Oil consumption, rather than mileage should be the deciding factor over whether to do a top end. From what I have seen, 3.6 aircooled engines with overly-worn guides exhibit a rapid oil consumption rise, and regardless of what's on the odometer, the need for a valve job becomes glaringly obvious. Perhaps that's why I have never heard of one of these engines grenading due to worn guides? __________________ '96 Polar silver/black C2 coupe '58 Red/black 356A coupe '90 RR County '04 RR HSE '07 Volvo XC70

10-29-2009, 04:28 AM	#52
jo-hans Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: WetCoast, Vancouver area, Canada Posts: 265	212,500 km (132,000 miles) no top end only Motul running strong low oil consumption. __________________ hans '97 993 C2 '05 VW Touareg V8

10-29-2009, 04:43 AM	#53
mongrelcat Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Seattle Posts: 911	110K miles, no top-end yet. When the needle on the gauge refuses to budge off the bottom consistently, I know it's time to add a 1/2 qt. That takes the gauge to about 1/3rd when it feel like registering (hot+idle+level,etc.,) verified as 1/2 on the dipstick. She burns 1/2 qt. per 600-1000 miles around town, 1/2 qt. per 2000+ miles while touring. M1 15w50 currently, probably switch to Motul 300V 10w40 next oil change (and run 300V 15w50 in the Summer.) __________________ '95 993 C2 [Polar/Black] ...

10-30-2009, 10:13 AM	#55
Johan928 Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Indiana Posts: 144	Berni, I think there's a lister with ~250k miles on his 993, with no engine work either, so it's possible to run for a long time :-) Good luck with the car if you buy it :-) __________________ John Ryall 91 928 GT (Black / Black)

10-28-2009, 02:47 PM	#46
ReinerFink Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Mercer Island, WA Posts: 184	I'd guess alot of the fear around "needs top end rebuild" comes from the SAI causing emissions failures. This is caused by the leaking exhaust valve guides. So, even if you have a '95 and you'll never get a SAI failure, you really do have the same physical condition (this would be my boat). The reality is that at ~130k you really should consider doing a rebuild. My friends '96 is opened up to the case (which we are not going to split), and the rod bearings on the inner rods are in pretty bad shape. These are the last to get oiling and therefore take the most wear. There are certain parts that really should have been made with better materials: valve guides, rod bolts and bearings, and valve springs are a few at the top of the list. Also, because the guides are not sealing well, this will cause more wear on the valves themselves, etc etc. Even if you are picking up a 993 used for "cheap" ($23k or such), spending an additional $4k-8k going over the engine when needed is just a fact of life. If you replace the bits with the "better" ones, you can go another 130k or more without worries. If you try to push your luck, then everything might be fine, or you might hole your engine when the rod bolt gives up etc. There is about the right mix of science and religion on this topic -- kind of like the "what oil should I use" threads. To each his own... my own is when I save up some more $$ in about a year or so, I am going to do a top end rebuild even though things seem fine from the drivers seat right now. -reiner

10-28-2009, 09:50 PM	#51
911C2 User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Herndon VA Posts: 266	97K and no work done.I have owned the car for 7 years. The car had 60K when I bought it so I know there has not been any work done. I am the third owner and the car was serviced at the same dealer the entire time, actually the same dealer sold it all three times. No clutch either. Had it on track a few weeks ago and there is no power loss. But then the car is white and everyone knows the white ones have the strongest motors. You dont believe me, just look at the cars they race, they are all white.

10-29-2009, 10:02 PM	#54
berni29 Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: England, Beckenham Posts: 111	Hi There I am looking at and hopefully buying a 1995 993 with 183k on the clock and no engine work done at all. Just regular oil changes. It has only had a couple of front dampers in that time so I will be polybushing the suspension and changing the dampers for Bilsteins immediately (if bought). And getting the 4 wheel align. And the owner says it does not use much oil and he does not have to top up between services. The engine does leak a little here and there. All the best Berni

11-02-2009, 11:18 PM	#57
berni29 Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: England, Beckenham Posts: 111	Hi there I did buy the car (and got lightly rear ended 1 hr and 5 miles later). Just to say the engine is pretty quiet, you can sometimes hear the tappets on startup for a fraction of a second, oil pressure is just over 1.5 bar when properly hot (oil cool fan on) and goes to 5 pretty much by 2k rpm. It has had semi synth 15/40 every 10k for the last 130k Berni

11-02-2009, 11:44 PM	#58
pcarhombre User Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 304	Imagine I'm whispering this. Better yet, pretend someone else told you this. I don't want fate to know I exist. 112k and just alot of praying...and lovin' my Zephyr!