ep3_lol

The MP4-12C uses something similar to PTV, but you don't hear many negative things about the way that car drives. Apparently the system saves them 60lbs over a traditional mechanical LSD. I'm not a fan myself (if the brakes are activated in my car, my foot better be on the middle pedal), but it's a system that does what it is supposed to do and has its advantages. I'd rather have a Porsche that makes sound business decisions and continues to produce an excellent product than a Porsche that produces no product at all. Sure, they've been thriving lately rather than merely getting by, but from my understanding, before the Boxster, they weren't in great shape financially. NP993 said it best- so long as we have the GT3, Boxster Spyder, and others in the same vein, I can put up with the sound business decisions.

texas911

Something about trees and forest.

pp000830

My experience is that automotive manufacturers select components from their suppliers on the basis of cost and the results of testing that show that the component will last through the warranty period. On the 993 the stock dampers were in many cases of very low quality and by replacing them one got a boost in handling performance. On the 964 Porsche learned a lesson on electronically controlled 4 wheel drive traction management. The system had serious reliability issues. On the 993 they went back to a previous mechanical approach that was very reliable. Sometimes elegance is simplicity! From this perspective the design decisions you describe may look advantageous.

Zeichen 282

I think we have to give Dr. Wiedeking *some* credit and that is having saved the company from bankruptcy in the early nineties. As we all know it came at the expense of some of the core Porsche values that most of us hold dear and make us love the 993 so much (sustainability/craftsmanship/longevity etc.).

The business model needed to change, Porsche branched out and reached a broader audience. So that's why we're here today with Cayenne, Panamera, Pajun and Macan on the way - VW now owning 100% of Porsche is only going to exacerbate that trend.

Porsche now makes many more country-club mobiles and soccer mom conveyances than "real" sports cars, but as long as they make sports cars and ground breaking halo cars like the 918 the Porsche brand will live. I personally have high hopes for the 551...

billqj

"nothing wrong with 996 actually. the 2002+ 911s are actually well built with few issues (RMS, IMS, coolant expansion tank). they are really affordable compared to 993s and new 991s. best value for a 911."

My point is that the 996 was a step down from the 993 (I have both, a '95 993 and a '02 996). That is certainly reflected in their current values, because of the RMS/IMSB and the lower quality, not to mention the styling of the 996. And all of this was related to making the 996 cheaper to manufacture, while at the same time pricing them higher than the 993.

The bottom line: higher profits for Porsche, less value for the Porsche customer. It didn't have to be that way!

matt777

Very true. Ferraris are more than double the price of entry level 911s so the GT3 might be a better comparison.

Cupcar

Hey guys, thanks for all the discussion which is exactly what I wanted. All the points seem to come out.

The desire to buy a Cayman was a passing fancy stimulated by a friend who has ordered one and I helped with the order and looked into the technologies at that time and found them disappointing to me.

In the end, my friend took my advice and ordered a car without PTV or PASM or any acronyms. I told him I would install a Bilstein PSS10 for him if he didn't like the suspension.

If he misses an LSD, he will miss only the junk for a LSD as shown here:

http://www.planet-9.com/cayman-boxst...dissected.html

Then the money saved for the option will go a long way toward a Quaife or Guard LSD installation.

A few points looking at the posts:

First of all none of you called me on the fact that Porsche installed electronic locking differentials for the 959, some 928's and the 964 C4 here is a GREAT video on how they work produced by Porsche
These cars did not have stability management and didn't have the yaw correction that can be built into the differential with today's stability management hardware like the Audi Sports Differential and the Ferrari E-Diff

The Porsche PTV system is probably nothing but a few lines of code in the stability management software to provide single wheel braking to induce yaw as well as control torque distribution. The code is native to the computer, just like the Sport Chrono option is and the cost of the option is nothing more than an unlock fee for the code. In fact, Sport Chrono can be installed by the dealer after sale if the customer pays for an unlock code from PCNA and the buttons are installed into the wiring harness.

PTV is thus similar to, but not identical to, the 993 ABD option since ABD only works for traction control and not yaw control.

A true electronic multiclutch differential would be great for track use, PTV just burns up horsepower and fades the rear brakes.

I am so disappointed at how the Porsche brand name has been milked and the quality of the cars diluted as Porsche profits go up and the market tolerates this. Who can blame Porsche when nobody cares? I just wish they had more dedication to their customers (dare I say Porsche history) than this.

Cupcar

Not for the moment, and the next GT3 will not use the Metzger engine which had the GT3 RS 4.0 as its swan song.

So will the next GT3 be a wet sump, pressed together transmission, Porsche acronym laden car? The jury is still out on this.

ep3_lol

As a professional software developer, I feel I have some worthwhile input here, particularly in regards to the "nothing but a few lines of code" bit. While it's true that the actual code printed out on a page that governs the PTV process probably isn't much, this is only one aspect of the development process among many that go into just how much a piece of software costs to produce and modify. Someone had to be paid to write (and no doubt re-write many times) that code, and furthermore adhere to very strict safety-critical computing standards that are not found in most fields of software development. Standards that increase time and effort required in nearly every aspect of the development process, and even add new aspects. The code had to be tested on a real, working car, and fine-tuned to exhibit the exact behavior the engineers wanted out of it; this of course has a cost as well. There is also the necessary overhead that goes along with these functions.

Finally, including all the software on every unit, only to lock out certain high-cost parts that not everyone needs or would want to pay for, is a much more cost-effective means of distribution than having to spec each ECU that leaves the factory in a significantly different way. It also allows a customer who did not want to purchase the software at first to easily upgrade later. I understand how this feels like a rip-off, but it's just the most economical means of distribution without putting the bill for niche options on everyone.

Now, are they going to make money selling that option for $1700? Unequivocally yes! I don't mean to say that the software is a monumental feat that requires a 4-figure price tag, just to say that it's got at least few people's time and hard work into it, and thus it can't be free.

All that being said, I still agree with you. I would much prefer mechanical solutions over electronic ones to high-performance driving issues. However, I'm afraid we're increasingly in the minority (or what will soon become minority) on this one, and cheaper software tricks are just the way of the future. They are more effective on paper (this extends to the recorded lap times that you can write down, these solutions are making cars faster too), and that is what sells to the average bench racer who won't ever have their car in a situation where the difference would be notable, which is unfortunately a significant chunk of any sports car's target market.

Cupcar

Very well stated, for what it is worth the only thing I would add is that a friend who is a Lotus freak and knows about the development of the Lotus Evora told me that all the solutions are native to the Bosch ABS CPU and just have to be selected and tweaked by the manufacturer. True or not I don't know, but if true I assume that Porsche does the same.

Bosch link: http://www.bosch.us/content/language1/html/3792.htm

ep3_lol

That's quite possible. If it's the case, though, Bosch could do the same to Porsche and Lotus that we see being done to their customers. A lot of questions that we can't answer.

Cupcar

It turns out that Porsche does use electronic differentials on the late cars, but only Panamera and Cayenne where it is used in the PTV+ or Porsche Torque Vectoring Plus option:

http://www.porsche.com/microsite/tec...lectedVariant=

http://www.porsche.com/microsite/tec...lectedVariant=

solomonschris

If I could only own, drive and maintain one Porsche, it would be a 993tt. I have one now, it is my third 993, and the only way I will sell it is to buy a RUF 993. I also have a 991S. I have now driven it 3000 miles and these are my thoughts. It is a fabulous car by any metric that makes sense to me. It isn't near are gorgeous as the 993, nor does it have the semi-handmade, intimate feel in the interior, nor is it as fun to drive. With that said, the 991 is a fabulous modern DD. It is fast as hell, has all the modern electronic stuff and air conditioned seats! My girlfriend isn't intimidated driving it like she is the tt. As to all the electronics, it has been my experience, with the plethora of electronic devices my company has installed on yachts over 25 years, is that they fail at the front end, that is to say, well within the warranty period. And I'm willing to bet that the valve guides won't be a worry either.

As a mass producer of cars, it is amazing to me that Porsche still dances at the edge of the possible. I drove my friends 2011 GT3. It was the most focused sports car I've ever driven. Who else builds such a (relatively) affordable streetable, dependable track tool? I think the cars keep getting better with each generation, but I have to
agree that they have lost some of their soul, just don't ask me to define soul. I know it when I drive it. Which is why if I have to sell
one, it will be the 991 that goes. Just one old Porsche guy's take.

tcsracing1

the CUP car gets all the real stuff. The street cars get all the mickey mouse stuff because survey says street car buyers dont use enough of the car to even notice the differences.......

take a new coxster, install a GT3 3.8L, proper LSD, shocks and vola', something we all would love.

Cupcar

Or take a chosen 993 and install all the GT2/Cup suspension stuff like I am doing...

BTW, putting a GT3 engine in a Boxster or Cayman is a dream many have but is not all that easy. The gearbox is the problem since the GT3 engine is based on the air cooled engine and uses the same gearbox series as those cars and the only options are the 915 gearbox which is not strong enough or flipping a GT3 or other G50 box upside down which then has issues with the half shaft angles.