Considering a change...thoughts?
12-19-2016, 05:21 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
A little food for the thought... I've had a 993 for almost 10 years now. Mostly track driving and some family drives (no rear seats though). i started converting the 993 into a GT2 monster and bought a 997 C4S (with GT3 RS body kit) as a weekend/family/trackday toy. Did a lot of track driving in it (including a trip to the Nürburgring and SPA). It was great and a lot faster than my 993.
However it lacked the feeling the 993 gives. Therefore I traded the 997 with the RSR bodied 993 and man that was a good move! I was back in the car that gave me absolutely best thrills both on the track and on the street.
The modern cars just don't compare to the raw feeling of the aircooled Porsches.
And that 997 was not even a good car to drive on the track...it had the front wheel drive removed but the geometry was not the same as on a GT3, there was no locking diff, no drysump (this will be a huge issue if you start using slicks).
I'd say that for track driving a non-GT 997 is not a good option. You will have trouble with it sooner or later.
Keep the 993, rebuild the motor like I did and have a blast with it!!
However it lacked the feeling the 993 gives. Therefore I traded the 997 with the RSR bodied 993 and man that was a good move! I was back in the car that gave me absolutely best thrills both on the track and on the street.
The modern cars just don't compare to the raw feeling of the aircooled Porsches.
And that 997 was not even a good car to drive on the track...it had the front wheel drive removed but the geometry was not the same as on a GT3, there was no locking diff, no drysump (this will be a huge issue if you start using slicks).
I'd say that for track driving a non-GT 997 is not a good option. You will have trouble with it sooner or later.
Keep the 993, rebuild the motor like I did and have a blast with it!!
12-19-2016, 05:47 PM
#32
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Mark, sent you a PM to keep this on track.
I have, and will again, though I'm not looking to slicks for the $/day ratio. I do have Traqmate and do use it. Of course there is time I can learn to find and I continually seek to do so. Those tenths will add up, sure. But Cayman R, 996TT, 997 GTS/Turbo, 991, and especially Gt3s and GT4s...you simply can't catch them. I do usually catch 996 (despite 50 HP deficit), some 997, but not the aforementioned Perhaps in other groups, but I like to think by Red many (not all) drivers have figured out a thing or two and are no slouch.
So statements like "needing more power in red is absurd"...well, no one lucky enough to have a Porsche and even more lucky enough to be able to track it NEEDs more power. But if one is driving reasonably well and wishes to be able to play more with the other, newer cars, more power is a likely necessity.
I heartily agree cup cars don't count. Thankfully they seem to travel in packs and go by quickly LOL
Respectfully, our cars are different. Clearly you are a more accomplished driver, and also my car is in complete street trim and I won't go weight savings due to its dual use.
There's the rub. On paper, the GTS is a no brainer, really. I mean on paper the latest Porsche is always the best empirically. Then there is the driving experience, old/new analog/digital air/water.
That is definitely in my consideration set.
Hire a pro coach and order a set of Michelin slicks. Do you have a proper data logger in the car? Are you looking at data on how to improve?
Basically, you need to pedal faster, it's not the lack of power. That said, more power would be nice, but the notion you need more power for DE in red is absurd.
Basically, you need to pedal faster, it's not the lack of power. That said, more power would be nice, but the notion you need more power for DE in red is absurd.
So statements like "needing more power in red is absurd"...well, no one lucky enough to have a Porsche and even more lucky enough to be able to track it NEEDs more power. But if one is driving reasonably well and wishes to be able to play more with the other, newer cars, more power is a likely necessity.
I can keep up with most modern gear, well Cup cars don't count
Respectfully, our cars are different. Clearly you are a more accomplished driver, and also my car is in complete street trim and I won't go weight savings due to its dual use.
The modern cars just don't compare to the raw feeling of the aircooled Porsches.
Keep the 993, rebuild the motor like I did and have a blast with it!!
12-19-2016, 06:16 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
As I wrote in my PM, my best times at the Glen were around 2:12, and that is with a 3025 lb., G class 993 wheeled by a fairly average (for PCA CR) driver. Certainly not the slowest and certainly not the fastest.
If you're not willing to push the 993 to get down to the 2:13 (on NT01s) or better range, you should buy a faster car. This is a power issue only if you are unwilling to work on the driver.
If you're not willing to push the 993 to get down to the 2:13 (on NT01s) or better range, you should buy a faster car. This is a power issue only if you are unwilling to work on the driver.
12-19-2016, 06:34 PM
#36
Three Wheelin'
After reading a lot (not all) of these posts, I think it really comes down to deciding what specifically is your value criteria...what things are most important to you in this car. If air cooled "charm" and all that type stuff that the 993 excels in, are not towards the top of your list, you should really get a new air-cooled 911 or some other sports car. All the maintenance and "slowness" that are part of a 20 year old 993, can really get on our nerves...IF you don't simply love all the things that make up a 993.
12-19-2016, 08:51 PM
#37
Drifting
This would be my solution:
Get a family hauler that doubles as tow car (ML, GL, LX570 you name it). Get an enclosed trailer where you can keep your car and tools. Pay a shop 100-150 bucks a month to park it. Just tell them when to tech, arrive and pick up the trailer. Then you can mod 993 and continue learning or buy a full track prepped car and really drive it or do anything of countless choices. Anything else will be a compromise that won't be satisfying. This is pretty much where most people who are half serious about tracking end up...and there are probably lots of reasons for that. It took me only couple years to realize that...I'm surprised you are still dealing with roof rack
One year was enough for me. I just picked up an open trailer from my friend for next season, who bought race car and enclosed trailer.
Get a family hauler that doubles as tow car (ML, GL, LX570 you name it). Get an enclosed trailer where you can keep your car and tools. Pay a shop 100-150 bucks a month to park it. Just tell them when to tech, arrive and pick up the trailer. Then you can mod 993 and continue learning or buy a full track prepped car and really drive it or do anything of countless choices. Anything else will be a compromise that won't be satisfying. This is pretty much where most people who are half serious about tracking end up...and there are probably lots of reasons for that. It took me only couple years to realize that...I'm surprised you are still dealing with roof rack
One year was enough for me. I just picked up an open trailer from my friend for next season, who bought race car and enclosed trailer.
12-19-2016, 10:58 PM
#38
Three Wheelin'
There's the emotional component to consider. If you are anything like me, if you sell your 993 you will eventually (if not immediately) regret it. These cars are special and they get a hold of your heart. Sometimes you don't know how much hold they have till they are gone.
I sold my RSA 10 years ago, regretted it for 10 years and only feel better now that I have a 993 in the garage.
Everyone's values and priorities are different but think about how you'd feel without the 993 in your life.
I sold my RSA 10 years ago, regretted it for 10 years and only feel better now that I have a 993 in the garage.
Everyone's values and priorities are different but think about how you'd feel without the 993 in your life.
12-19-2016, 11:00 PM
#39
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Agreed. I'm simply trying to learn any tidbits from those who might have also considered.
For example, I'll look more at the interior and talk to mechanics about what you do without a dry sump.
Hey man. Not really for me. All that hardware in dealing with NYC...and no shop I know of will do $100/mo. Plus on the road trips I still get to drive a 911 now. I want to keep that as long as my son still fits in back. I'm SEEKING the compromise, or rather I accept and embrace it. I'm just seeking to find the OPTIMAL compromise given needs and wants and logic and emotion.
Yup.
For example, I'll look more at the interior and talk to mechanics about what you do without a dry sump.
Get a family hauler that doubles as tow car (ML, GL, LX570 you name it). Get an enclosed trailer where you can keep your car and tools. Pay a shop 100-150 bucks a month to park it. Just tell them when to tech, arrive and pick up the trailer. Then you can mod 993 and continue learning or buy a full track prepped car and really drive it or do anything of countless choices. Anything else will be a compromise that won't be satisfying. This is pretty much where most people who are half serious about tracking end up...and there are probably lots of reasons for that. It took me only couple years to realize that...I'm surprised you are still dealing with roof
There's the emotional component to consider
Last edited by JPS; 12-19-2016 at 11:24 PM.
12-20-2016, 01:05 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
Sure the 996 Turbo would be an option too....this is a beast in a separate class. Friends of mine have taken their 996 Turbo cars to the track, and have blown coolant tubes, overheated their brakes...but they did have fun, and it is an AWD car, excellent in the snow and rain.
The coolant hose issue exists on GT3s, also. Not sure how many have been retired from track duty for that reason alone. Brake issues? New one to me, if you're even half a sentient being. And anyone considering serious duty, track or otherwise, will remove the FWD part. Track to snow, it's all about the tires.
12-20-2016, 04:17 AM
#41
RL Technical Advisor
Great discussion, without a doubt.
Jos and I had a protracted discussion about all this, but I'd offer some additional data points:
1) I would not consider any 997 before 2012, just to get the 9A1 engine and not the first ones. These are far far better than the M97-engined versions, but do suffer the same ills as ALL DFI-equipped engines.
2) A 996TT is a huge bargain for the money and quite bulletproof. Not perfect, but mechanically, a rugged car. These make an excellent dual-purpose vehicle for those who require pedestrian duty as well as high performance.
While both cars are certainly faster, neither car delivers the same overall experience as the air-cooled ones, but this is all subjective as many of you already understand.
One REALLY needs to drive good examples of all to determine which one you like best.
Jos and I had a protracted discussion about all this, but I'd offer some additional data points:
1) I would not consider any 997 before 2012, just to get the 9A1 engine and not the first ones. These are far far better than the M97-engined versions, but do suffer the same ills as ALL DFI-equipped engines.
2) A 996TT is a huge bargain for the money and quite bulletproof. Not perfect, but mechanically, a rugged car. These make an excellent dual-purpose vehicle for those who require pedestrian duty as well as high performance.
While both cars are certainly faster, neither car delivers the same overall experience as the air-cooled ones, but this is all subjective as many of you already understand.
One REALLY needs to drive good examples of all to determine which one you like best.
12-20-2016, 10:35 AM
#42
Three Wheelin'
Great discussion, without a doubt.
Jos and I had a protracted discussion about all this, but I'd offer some additional data points:
1) I would not consider any 997 before 2012, just to get the 9A1 engine and not the first ones. These are far far better than the M97-engined versions, but do suffer the same ills as ALL DFI-equipped engines.
2) A 996TT is a huge bargain for the money and quite bulletproof. Not perfect, but mechanically, a rugged car. These make an excellent dual-purpose vehicle for those who require pedestrian duty as well as high performance.
While both cars are certainly faster, neither car delivers the same overall experience as the air-cooled ones, but this is all subjective as many of you already understand.
One REALLY needs to drive good examples of all to determine which one you like best.
Jos and I had a protracted discussion about all this, but I'd offer some additional data points:
1) I would not consider any 997 before 2012, just to get the 9A1 engine and not the first ones. These are far far better than the M97-engined versions, but do suffer the same ills as ALL DFI-equipped engines.
2) A 996TT is a huge bargain for the money and quite bulletproof. Not perfect, but mechanically, a rugged car. These make an excellent dual-purpose vehicle for those who require pedestrian duty as well as high performance.
While both cars are certainly faster, neither car delivers the same overall experience as the air-cooled ones, but this is all subjective as many of you already understand.
One REALLY needs to drive good examples of all to determine which one you like best.
12-20-2016, 11:16 AM
#43
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A 996TT is a huge bargain for the money and quite bulletproof.
I would not consider any 997 before 2012
One REALLY needs to drive good examples of all to determine which one you like best.
Big surprise...Steve shows up with probably the best, most concise advice of all...
12-20-2016, 11:55 AM
#44
Rennlist Member
I was in a similar predicament.
My 993 was getting close to the point that it needed some serious cash thrown at it to keep it in perfect shape. The car had 97K miles on it and needed a mechanical refresh, including an engine rebuild.
So, I tested the only car that really appealed to me in the 911 range: the 997GTS.
Found one, test drove it.
Yes, it's faster. But that was about it.
I wasn't impressed with the quality of the interior for the price; lots of cheap looking plastic etc. Also, I didn't need/want the driving nannies, nav, or most of the electronics. Nice, but not for me. I guess I'm more analog than digital. And yes, they are a dime a dozen out here in SoCal, relatively speaking.
So, I bit the bullet and spent a tidy sum and 3 months doing a complete mechanical restoration on my 993, so now I can drive it for a very long time without needing to throw any more cash at it.
And, unlike you, I think money thrown at a classic air-cooled Porsche you will get back if you aren't in a hurry.
I'm happy with my old car with every mechanical part replaced, refurbished or rebuilt. Car runs like a dream, and I'm very glad I made the decision to keep my C4S.
Good luck with your decision
My 993 was getting close to the point that it needed some serious cash thrown at it to keep it in perfect shape. The car had 97K miles on it and needed a mechanical refresh, including an engine rebuild.
So, I tested the only car that really appealed to me in the 911 range: the 997GTS.
Found one, test drove it.
Yes, it's faster. But that was about it.
I wasn't impressed with the quality of the interior for the price; lots of cheap looking plastic etc. Also, I didn't need/want the driving nannies, nav, or most of the electronics. Nice, but not for me. I guess I'm more analog than digital. And yes, they are a dime a dozen out here in SoCal, relatively speaking.
So, I bit the bullet and spent a tidy sum and 3 months doing a complete mechanical restoration on my 993, so now I can drive it for a very long time without needing to throw any more cash at it.
And, unlike you, I think money thrown at a classic air-cooled Porsche you will get back if you aren't in a hurry.
I'm happy with my old car with every mechanical part replaced, refurbished or rebuilt. Car runs like a dream, and I'm very glad I made the decision to keep my C4S.
Good luck with your decision
12-20-2016, 12:55 PM
#45
Three Wheelin'
the only car I would consider swapping my 993 would be a manual GT4 (i know, they currently all are manual)
I have been driving my 981 GTS in anger and I am truly amazed at the performance in canyons and on an AX course.
I drove a GT4 over 1,000 miles in canyons and PCH ( the good part) again truly amazing car.
If I was to build a dedicated track car, I would start with a 996 turbo.
Not an easy decision. Guess that is why I have not sold any of my pcars. Good issues to have :-)
Merry Xmas!
I have been driving my 981 GTS in anger and I am truly amazed at the performance in canyons and on an AX course.
I drove a GT4 over 1,000 miles in canyons and PCH ( the good part) again truly amazing car.
If I was to build a dedicated track car, I would start with a 996 turbo.
Not an easy decision. Guess that is why I have not sold any of my pcars. Good issues to have :-)
Merry Xmas!