993GT2EVO dyno report number two
03-21-2008, 12:41 PM
#91
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The fact is I paid a lot of money for a 600hp car and what I got was less than I started with, FACT. I would proceed with legal route but I dont want to drag my current tuner in this mess as he produced a 600hp car at a fraction of the cost of 9m and did so in a very short time frame unlike 9m where my car seemed to spend most of its life in bits. 9m HP figures are a joke FACT. I blame 9m 100%, I would like to know why you feel some of these problems were my fault?
03-21-2008, 12:52 PM
#92
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Who is Tony taylor, is he an 'interested' party?
I have no direct experience of 9M, but have had big problems with other shops in the UK. When I posted my experience on some of the forums, I too was doubted by 'good intentioned' (and doubting) posters when they had no knowledge of my case. It was however a very valuable tool to be able to name & shame the culprits as:
1. It warned others to be careful of the suppliers instead of believing the usual hype, and
2. It encouraged the offending traders to settle my grievances.
It is perhaps a shame that JBL and James didn't feel comfortable in sharing their bad experiences earlier. It was noticeable that when I publicised my own bad experiences, that I received several p.m's from previous victims.
PS: Tony, the legal system, whilst a useful tool can be time-consuming, costly and daunting to most of us, and is a last resort.
PPS: I took one supplier to court and obtained full redress, and the threat has been effective in some other instances, P car related or otherwise.
I have no direct experience of 9M, but have had big problems with other shops in the UK. When I posted my experience on some of the forums, I too was doubted by 'good intentioned' (and doubting) posters when they had no knowledge of my case. It was however a very valuable tool to be able to name & shame the culprits as:
1. It warned others to be careful of the suppliers instead of believing the usual hype, and
2. It encouraged the offending traders to settle my grievances.
It is perhaps a shame that JBL and James didn't feel comfortable in sharing their bad experiences earlier. It was noticeable that when I publicised my own bad experiences, that I received several p.m's from previous victims.
PS: Tony, the legal system, whilst a useful tool can be time-consuming, costly and daunting to most of us, and is a last resort.
PPS: I took one supplier to court and obtained full redress, and the threat has been effective in some other instances, P car related or otherwise.
My reason for posting isn't to support 9M or dispute the "facts" as presented by the agreived parties but more because of irritation at the unfair way self appointed experts use these threads for their own motives.
Legal redress is always a last resort but if you feel strongly about your position it's the better way forward than bitching on the internet all IMVHO
03-21-2008, 01:02 PM
#93
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Without Prejudice
I understand you trying to have an unbiased opinion, I guess it does seam that we are ganging up on 9m, actually it's not even 9m, it's Colin himself, the porsche tuning God. I can put as much evidence on the table here as you like, from every receipt to every dyno graph, links to all of my threads asking for help over the years to diagnose the continuous and repetitive issues and failures with my car after a full engine and gearbox rebuild, and all happening in under 13k miles.
My car isn't a daily driver, it's a fair weather car and it had done those 13k miles over the last three years, out of the last three years my car had been in the 9m garage for at least one of them in total, and it was never fixed correctly, band aid 7th injector fitted that every single other porsche specialist has said is a stupid and mechanically dangerous thing to fit, two turbo chargers that went within that mileage, a fire that could have been a whole lot worse if i wasn't brave/stupid enough to tackle it at the road side, repetitive fuel issues with regards to him specifying modifications to my WUR that was sent off and refitted FIVE times, ALL at my expense, horrendously inflated power figures to keep me thinking that they really were the best outfit there is.
Basically he sees a customer like me as an easy target that doesn't know enough about turbo tuning to question his methods, i'm simply another sucker, mug, moron that he can fleece money from, he quotes a reasonable price and time frame to do the work and then drags the work out over many months periodically getting the office to call and explain that the price is going up because of one reason or another, my original bill was over 50% more than i was quoted, and a further 50% more had been spent for him to try and fix it.
It's a complete con, it wouldn't actually be that hard to swallow if i ended up with a well sorted and powerful car like i was promised, but i didn't, i ended up with a car that never ran right, was constantly breaking down and having him charge me when these things happened, no apologies, no recompense, no solutions.
I know James personally, as well as many others on this board, there is no conspiracy here, i haven't pursued Colin through the courts because basically i haven't the time or energy, my tiny remark earlier in this thread that i thought his dyno was "comedy" was simply a remark, i didn't expect him to raise his head and start trying to defend himself, but he did and i had to react, the whole point for me now is to warn any "would be" customers that Colin doesn't know jack **** about tuning turbo engines, whether CIS, Motec or Motronic, you will be lied to, over charged, massive amounts of time wasted and end up totally disappointed.
Has Colin even tried to counter James' claims about his engine, or mine, NO, because he hasn't a leg to stand on, he knows he's in the wrong.
His lies are transparent, his power claims outrageous, his work ethic is appalling and his workmanship is ammeter at best, you've been warned.
If he would like to sue me then bring it on!
I understand you trying to have an unbiased opinion, I guess it does seam that we are ganging up on 9m, actually it's not even 9m, it's Colin himself, the porsche tuning God. I can put as much evidence on the table here as you like, from every receipt to every dyno graph, links to all of my threads asking for help over the years to diagnose the continuous and repetitive issues and failures with my car after a full engine and gearbox rebuild, and all happening in under 13k miles.
My car isn't a daily driver, it's a fair weather car and it had done those 13k miles over the last three years, out of the last three years my car had been in the 9m garage for at least one of them in total, and it was never fixed correctly, band aid 7th injector fitted that every single other porsche specialist has said is a stupid and mechanically dangerous thing to fit, two turbo chargers that went within that mileage, a fire that could have been a whole lot worse if i wasn't brave/stupid enough to tackle it at the road side, repetitive fuel issues with regards to him specifying modifications to my WUR that was sent off and refitted FIVE times, ALL at my expense, horrendously inflated power figures to keep me thinking that they really were the best outfit there is.
Basically he sees a customer like me as an easy target that doesn't know enough about turbo tuning to question his methods, i'm simply another sucker, mug, moron that he can fleece money from, he quotes a reasonable price and time frame to do the work and then drags the work out over many months periodically getting the office to call and explain that the price is going up because of one reason or another, my original bill was over 50% more than i was quoted, and a further 50% more had been spent for him to try and fix it.
It's a complete con, it wouldn't actually be that hard to swallow if i ended up with a well sorted and powerful car like i was promised, but i didn't, i ended up with a car that never ran right, was constantly breaking down and having him charge me when these things happened, no apologies, no recompense, no solutions.
I know James personally, as well as many others on this board, there is no conspiracy here, i haven't pursued Colin through the courts because basically i haven't the time or energy, my tiny remark earlier in this thread that i thought his dyno was "comedy" was simply a remark, i didn't expect him to raise his head and start trying to defend himself, but he did and i had to react, the whole point for me now is to warn any "would be" customers that Colin doesn't know jack **** about tuning turbo engines, whether CIS, Motec or Motronic, you will be lied to, over charged, massive amounts of time wasted and end up totally disappointed.
Has Colin even tried to counter James' claims about his engine, or mine, NO, because he hasn't a leg to stand on, he knows he's in the wrong.
His lies are transparent, his power claims outrageous, his work ethic is appalling and his workmanship is ammeter at best, you've been warned.
If he would like to sue me then bring it on!
03-21-2008, 01:09 PM
#94
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Care to clarify who are those experts and their motives?
03-21-2008, 01:24 PM
#95
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Tonytaylor
A quick search on your posts shows that you know Colin and how devoted you are to Ninemeister, which is fine, but probably more biased than I could ever be. I am not blaming Colin of anything other than having an overly optimistic dyno and numbers...always, and that he uses them to market his products...always (run a search), it is his disappointed and cheated customers who are blaming him here, but he certainly does not seem to be taking any blame at all. .
As to the factst The test was far from being independent as it was initiated and orchestrated by Robin the 4T partner and Colin, they did the tests, the weight, etc..A record braking Porsche built by an independent certainly deserves an independent test by the authority in magazine tests such as Sportauto, if nothing else, it is independent.
One of the cars had 200lbs less than stock weight, that is "not much"?
The 993 Carrera with 300bhp was tested by Sportauto at 6.2 seconds from 100-160kph, while the 360bhp 9M car of Robin with the same weight was around 6.1 s, what do you think?
As to BMEP, what I will tell you is that Colin's aircooled 2V engine is about 19% more efficient than the brand new watercooled 4V 997RSR. If that does not seem much, think that the 997RSR with all the engineering work done on it, is less than 2% more efficient that the older 996RSR, and 3% more than the 997 CUP, and 8% more than the street 997GT3. Suddenly 19% more efficient (than the most efficient) NA engine ever built by Weissach seems crazy doesn't it.?
A quick search on your posts shows that you know Colin and how devoted you are to Ninemeister, which is fine, but probably more biased than I could ever be. I am not blaming Colin of anything other than having an overly optimistic dyno and numbers...always, and that he uses them to market his products...always (run a search), it is his disappointed and cheated customers who are blaming him here, but he certainly does not seem to be taking any blame at all. .
As to the factst The test was far from being independent as it was initiated and orchestrated by Robin the 4T partner and Colin, they did the tests, the weight, etc..A record braking Porsche built by an independent certainly deserves an independent test by the authority in magazine tests such as Sportauto, if nothing else, it is independent.
One of the cars had 200lbs less than stock weight, that is "not much"?
The 993 Carrera with 300bhp was tested by Sportauto at 6.2 seconds from 100-160kph, while the 360bhp 9M car of Robin with the same weight was around 6.1 s, what do you think?
As to BMEP, what I will tell you is that Colin's aircooled 2V engine is about 19% more efficient than the brand new watercooled 4V 997RSR. If that does not seem much, think that the 997RSR with all the engineering work done on it, is less than 2% more efficient that the older 996RSR, and 3% more than the 997 CUP, and 8% more than the street 997GT3. Suddenly 19% more efficient (than the most efficient) NA engine ever built by Weissach seems crazy doesn't it.?
Do a proper search instead of a quick one and you'll find how I know 9M. To say I'm devoted to Colin is absurd but I guess it's just your way of undermining my opinion.
I've had my car dyno'd by 9M and it's given the highest reading. However it is comparable with all the other independant dyno readings I have. Since no chassis dyno gives a full picture of engine performance ( and nor does an engine dyno for that matter) I take them all the dyno readings in that context. I prefer performance testing as a method of extrapolating performance improvements.
The point over using dyno numbers to market products is accepted and perhaps all claims need to carry a disclaimer. However I feel you would be foolish indeed to take any such dyno numbers as gospel - caveat emptor IMO.
Whether some of his customers posting are disappointed is without doubt but whether they have been cheated is a matter of opinion. Frankly such a statement is defamatory since it implies the motive was to deliberately cheat rather than disappointment being consequential of other factors.
You again repeat the insinuation that Total 911 acted improperly to deceive it's readers by not being impartial for financial gain. On balance of probabilities the likelyhood is you are wrong and the test was fair. My interest lies in your motive for your disingenuous comments. Of course it suits your crusade.
200lbs ( interestingly IIRC it was less than 200lbs perhaps exageration is a one way street) is aboy 6.5% on a 993C2. Again you ignore the relevant points about weight and aero and a 6.5% power to weight ratio won't explain the performance differences. The validity of the test is the comparison on the day. Picking a performance quote from a different magazine on a different day with probably different measurment criteria is as pointless as , say, comparing different dyno results on different dynos on different days on different cars for comparing relative performance.
993 with 300hp? that'll be an RS I assume as the standard models had eithe r 272 or 285hp. So you want to compare the lighter RS with better gear ratios, especially in that speed range, against a standard car and the best figure you can find is still slower. To be credible it's best to be honest an give full disclosure of the relevant details don't you agree?
I think you need to produce a full disclosure of your calculations on BMEP to be taken seriously.
03-21-2008, 01:49 PM
#96
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I have never been a customer of 9M, but you have to admire someone that carries out an extensive development program on a platform that's 10-19 years old, totally against 'perceived wisdom', faced with a very difficult 'go to market' proposition, uses his own car(s) as testbed(s), and proves his work on track by winning the PCGB Speed Championships twice against some pretty serious machinery ..
Next month, I have organised for the Porsche Club GB 993 Register to go to 9M for an Engine Seminar / Dyno Day .. while I don't expect any tyre shredding from many of the attendees (including myself), I am keen to see and evaluate as far as possible both Colin's RSR and another I know of which he has modified fairly extensively .. and form my own opinion of the predicted flywheel outputs shown on the dyno from a range of cars.
My 2P .. cheers, Maurice
Next month, I have organised for the Porsche Club GB 993 Register to go to 9M for an Engine Seminar / Dyno Day .. while I don't expect any tyre shredding from many of the attendees (including myself), I am keen to see and evaluate as far as possible both Colin's RSR and another I know of which he has modified fairly extensively .. and form my own opinion of the predicted flywheel outputs shown on the dyno from a range of cars.
My 2P .. cheers, Maurice
03-21-2008, 02:17 PM
#97
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Tonytaylor
I do call these two customers cheated when they paid for something they did not get. I don't think Colin had the intent, but I do think that he did not do the right thing with them when it didn't work. And the money is not back either. Lawsuits? When you go to tune your car at a famous independent, you are not looking for lawsuits, but for results as claimed. This is supposed to be fun and a hobby, at least for most of us.
Every tuner uses numbers to sell his products, problem is that his numbers are the highest in the world, and he does not even question it.
I never said that Total 911 acted improperly, those are your words, don't make them mine. A test initiated, managed and run by the same people who are bringing the cars can hardly be called independent, at least give me this
171 lbs to be exact, you are right, it is not 200lbs. I am not ignoring aero, they both are going at the same speed.
Yes 300bhp was the 3.8 ltr factory kit for the Carrera, not the RS, check it .out.
As I said earlier, while 9M seems to be an experienced shop for N/A cars, it certainly looks like it is lacking for turbo cars.
As for BMEP , I would post it all but I can see that we will be starting yet another debate since the spirit is to prove right or wrong rather than see the reality, please run a search for "BMEP" and you will get the answers, I hope you understand that I am tired of answering all the questions or having to prove this and that, feel free to share your findings with us when you get the numbers. I will be happy to discuss further in private if you wish.
Edit: This might help https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...63&postcount=1
I do call these two customers cheated when they paid for something they did not get. I don't think Colin had the intent, but I do think that he did not do the right thing with them when it didn't work. And the money is not back either. Lawsuits? When you go to tune your car at a famous independent, you are not looking for lawsuits, but for results as claimed. This is supposed to be fun and a hobby, at least for most of us.
Every tuner uses numbers to sell his products, problem is that his numbers are the highest in the world, and he does not even question it.
I never said that Total 911 acted improperly, those are your words, don't make them mine. A test initiated, managed and run by the same people who are bringing the cars can hardly be called independent, at least give me this
171 lbs to be exact, you are right, it is not 200lbs. I am not ignoring aero, they both are going at the same speed.
Yes 300bhp was the 3.8 ltr factory kit for the Carrera, not the RS, check it .out.
As I said earlier, while 9M seems to be an experienced shop for N/A cars, it certainly looks like it is lacking for turbo cars.
As for BMEP , I would post it all but I can see that we will be starting yet another debate since the spirit is to prove right or wrong rather than see the reality, please run a search for "BMEP" and you will get the answers, I hope you understand that I am tired of answering all the questions or having to prove this and that, feel free to share your findings with us when you get the numbers. I will be happy to discuss further in private if you wish.
Edit: This might help https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...63&postcount=1
03-21-2008, 02:18 PM
#98
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...at least people talk very positively about your decency, which is in itself a lot more than what is said about many others.
What made your car go 193mph at VMAX was certainly not something like the peak torque numbers we saw on your dyno sheets, but rather a well sorted conservatively tuned engine. And BTW that day the laser readings were all screwed up from what I read, depending on which lane the car was run on.
What made your car go 193mph at VMAX was certainly not something like the peak torque numbers we saw on your dyno sheets, but rather a well sorted conservatively tuned engine. And BTW that day the laser readings were all screwed up from what I read, depending on which lane the car was run on.
Thank you for your kind words, although I have never met many from RL it really means a lot to me. I value my integrity highly.
The V-Max Glacier day was not the one with the disparate readings, that was the event previous. Everything was right on that day. We had a fierce left to right gusting cross/head wind though. I knew that the previous event had some issues, so I had the owner run the car in both lanes back to back for 12 runs. Thereby eliminating any lane discrepancy and also to avoid dispute about heat soak, as the car barely stopped between runs.
On the most recent day [V-Max Redline] the cars that ran well were blkrokts & ??. The 196 GT2 from the north was running a Simtis programme the exact same as the Turbo "S" cab that we ran on the previous event. The chap who designs these ECU programmes actually has 3 patents registered to him in connection with ECU flashing and external flash devices. I trust him & his abilities implicitly. He actually possesses Bosch Modus and does 997 RSR race cars, he is a proper boffin. I firmly believe that if presented with a properly built and specced car, he could map it. He openly admits that his knowledge of Motronic as fitted to 993 is limited, read almost nil.
I am sure the car's owner will gladly come to the next V-Max and let Martyn put in a v-box. The data recorder he had was palm based and frankly it was ****.
He does not launch his car though as his first V-Max cost him c£1600 at the OPC for a clutch pack--lol.
I am confident that with conditions akin to V-Max Redline that his car will run 197 or over.
Cheers
Allan
03-21-2008, 02:32 PM
#99
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Hi Geoffrey, thanks for pointing that out, do you have a correct graph? I pulled that off the internet.
So before my car had the 7th injector fitted, my AFR's weren't actually THAT bad, i'm guessing from the GForce graph it reads about 0.835 ish? Which put me at about 12.3:1afr. A fuel head modification and fully adjustable WUR would have provided plenty of (safe, evenly distributed) fuel to bring this down a point or two, and allowed me to safely run at 1.0bar.
I've been interested in learning about CIS turbos and fueling them since mine started going wrong a couple of years or so, and even i know what is needed to do it properly!
So before my car had the 7th injector fitted, my AFR's weren't actually THAT bad, i'm guessing from the GForce graph it reads about 0.835 ish? Which put me at about 12.3:1afr. A fuel head modification and fully adjustable WUR would have provided plenty of (safe, evenly distributed) fuel to bring this down a point or two, and allowed me to safely run at 1.0bar.
I've been interested in learning about CIS turbos and fueling them since mine started going wrong a couple of years or so, and even i know what is needed to do it properly!
03-21-2008, 03:07 PM
#100
Nordschleife Master
I can create a chart for you and post it, but the math works like this..
Lambda of 1 = 14.7 for gasoline, 14.5 for diesel, 6.4 for Methanol
so, to find what .8 lambda is, you multiply .8 * 14.7 for gasoline, 14.5 for diesel, etc. or 11.76 afr for gasoline, 11.6:1 afr for diesel, and 5.12:1 afr for methanol.
Plug the math function into a spreadsheet and you can produce the table for yourself.
Lambda exists so that a common ratio exists that crosses any fuel type. So if I tell you that I'm running a lambda value of .97 you know that I'm running rich of stoiciometric (chemically ideal combustion) for my fuel type.
Like many things, you need to consider the source...
There are many different solutions for adjusting the fueling of the CIS system in an older car. ALL of them are a patchwork approach since to properly add fuel with the CIS design, you would need to design a new metering plate and fuel head. All of them are a compromise and each has its own issues since you are doing something it wasn't designed to do.
Lambda of 1 = 14.7 for gasoline, 14.5 for diesel, 6.4 for Methanol
so, to find what .8 lambda is, you multiply .8 * 14.7 for gasoline, 14.5 for diesel, etc. or 11.76 afr for gasoline, 11.6:1 afr for diesel, and 5.12:1 afr for methanol.
Plug the math function into a spreadsheet and you can produce the table for yourself.
Lambda exists so that a common ratio exists that crosses any fuel type. So if I tell you that I'm running a lambda value of .97 you know that I'm running rich of stoiciometric (chemically ideal combustion) for my fuel type.
I pulled that off the internet
So before my car had the 7th injector fitted, my AFR's weren't actually THAT bad
Last edited by Geoffrey; 03-21-2008 at 03:28 PM.
03-21-2008, 05:42 PM
#101
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Tonytaylor
I do call these two customers cheated when they paid for something they did not get. I don't think Colin had the intent, but I do think that he did not do the right thing with them when it didn't work. And the money is not back either. Lawsuits? When you go to tune your car at a famous independent, you are not looking for lawsuits, but for results as claimed. This is supposed to be fun and a hobby, at least for most of us.
Every tuner uses numbers to sell his products, problem is that his numbers are the highest in the world, and he does not even question it.
I never said that Total 911 acted improperly, those are your words, don't make them mine. A test initiated, managed and run by the same people who are bringing the cars can hardly be called independent, at least give me this
171 lbs to be exact, you are right, it is not 200lbs. I am not ignoring aero, they both are going at the same speed.
Yes 300bhp was the 3.8 ltr factory kit for the Carrera, not the RS, check it .out.
As I said earlier, while 9M seems to be an experienced shop for N/A cars, it certainly looks like it is lacking for turbo cars.
As for BMEP , I would post it all but I can see that we will be starting yet another debate since the spirit is to prove right or wrong rather than see the reality, please run a search for "BMEP" and you will get the answers, I hope you understand that I am tired of answering all the questions or having to prove this and that, feel free to share your findings with us when you get the numbers. I will be happy to discuss further in private if you wish.
Edit: This might help https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...63&postcount=1
I do call these two customers cheated when they paid for something they did not get. I don't think Colin had the intent, but I do think that he did not do the right thing with them when it didn't work. And the money is not back either. Lawsuits? When you go to tune your car at a famous independent, you are not looking for lawsuits, but for results as claimed. This is supposed to be fun and a hobby, at least for most of us.
Every tuner uses numbers to sell his products, problem is that his numbers are the highest in the world, and he does not even question it.
I never said that Total 911 acted improperly, those are your words, don't make them mine. A test initiated, managed and run by the same people who are bringing the cars can hardly be called independent, at least give me this
171 lbs to be exact, you are right, it is not 200lbs. I am not ignoring aero, they both are going at the same speed.
Yes 300bhp was the 3.8 ltr factory kit for the Carrera, not the RS, check it .out.
As I said earlier, while 9M seems to be an experienced shop for N/A cars, it certainly looks like it is lacking for turbo cars.
As for BMEP , I would post it all but I can see that we will be starting yet another debate since the spirit is to prove right or wrong rather than see the reality, please run a search for "BMEP" and you will get the answers, I hope you understand that I am tired of answering all the questions or having to prove this and that, feel free to share your findings with us when you get the numbers. I will be happy to discuss further in private if you wish.
Edit: This might help https://rennlist.com/forums/showpost...63&postcount=1
It may seem like a matter of semantics but to cheat would reasonable seem to imply fraud or dishonesty and at least it appears you don't believe Colin had intent in this respect. Whether Colin should repay any money or not would depend on his contract with his customer. Any moral obligation in respect of compensation is subjective.
As I have said before I honestly believe caveat emptor applies when basing any payment on numbers generated by a dyno. I accept the point of the relative accuracy of Porsche et al hp but chassis dyno numbers in particular are not a fixed parameter.
My exact words were "You again repeat the insinuation that Total 911 acted improperly " and I feel any reasonable person would at least agree my view of your statement was valid. I haven't made these words yours in anyway nor has any such sentiment been given or implied. I don't feel the test was to any significant degree any more or less independant than any other magazine would produce.
I'm glad we accept 171lbs isn't 200lbs. The point about the aero is that as speed increases wind resistance plays an increasing part in the counter force to engine torque.
I am familiar with the factory 3.8l kit the advantage of which is the torque and the area under the hp curve. My 300hp 3.6l was no match for a 300hp 3.8l for this reason despite being a similar weight and running the same transmision.
I see you appear accept 9M have some experience in tuning NA cars although this seems at odds with an earlier post of yours on this thread.
It's a pity your too tired to want to discuss the BMEP or other points in depth as I'm sure you would agree clarity is paramount in threads of this nature.
03-21-2008, 06:31 PM
#102
I find myself quite disappointed that people who have had serious problems with any 'vendor' has not felt able/have time to discuss these matters on here. Over the years, we have all spent a lot of time trying out modifications and sharing our successes and failures on here. Now I find myself reading from 3 or 4 really unhappy people on the same thread regarding 9M all of a sudden. This is a sad state of affairs. Especially as the thread started with the 'comedy' comment which I think was apalling. How about some transparency here? How come you guys haven't talked to us about thiS?
Having said that I am a client of 9M. My car has been extensively modified over the years. I would be horrified to hear that others have had a problem with the 9M dyno showing hugely inflated numbers, especially on an n/a engine where gains are moderate for the outlay! I say 'would' but I cannot really tell any difference in acceleration between my 964 and the 996 GT3 (Mk1) that I now also drive, so I guess it should be OK unless the GT3 is down on power itself.
In any case, what has really caught my interest is the claim that 9M do not stand by their product and service. If that *is* true then I guess I (and many others) are only one problem away from getting very pissed off indeed.
From what I can see, there is not enough facts or proof to be judging anyone on this thread, but I am going to be watching with interest!!
Having said that I am a client of 9M. My car has been extensively modified over the years. I would be horrified to hear that others have had a problem with the 9M dyno showing hugely inflated numbers, especially on an n/a engine where gains are moderate for the outlay! I say 'would' but I cannot really tell any difference in acceleration between my 964 and the 996 GT3 (Mk1) that I now also drive, so I guess it should be OK unless the GT3 is down on power itself.
In any case, what has really caught my interest is the claim that 9M do not stand by their product and service. If that *is* true then I guess I (and many others) are only one problem away from getting very pissed off indeed.
From what I can see, there is not enough facts or proof to be judging anyone on this thread, but I am going to be watching with interest!!
03-22-2008, 01:53 AM
#103
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Tonytaylor
I linked the BMEP calculation for you and some samples in my post above, it will take you 2 minutes to do the calculation for 9M's 450bhp car..
If you wish to start a new thread on the 993 or 964 section to discuss Ninemeister's BMEP in depth, it might be worth a reading, afterall it is not everyday that engineering records are broken in the Porsche world by that margin.
As to the rest of your comments, I am not interested in a debate on semantics in a language that is not my mother tongue, I have said everything I wanted to say about the "non-independent" magazine test, inflated dyno numbers and my opinion about the non-delivery as promised by 9M to the Rennlisters who have spoken, now it is up to the readers to decide if the way this issue was dealt with was appropriate for these guys or not, and for the aggrieved parties to decide what they want to do next.
Jean
I linked the BMEP calculation for you and some samples in my post above, it will take you 2 minutes to do the calculation for 9M's 450bhp car..
If you wish to start a new thread on the 993 or 964 section to discuss Ninemeister's BMEP in depth, it might be worth a reading, afterall it is not everyday that engineering records are broken in the Porsche world by that margin.
As to the rest of your comments, I am not interested in a debate on semantics in a language that is not my mother tongue, I have said everything I wanted to say about the "non-independent" magazine test, inflated dyno numbers and my opinion about the non-delivery as promised by 9M to the Rennlisters who have spoken, now it is up to the readers to decide if the way this issue was dealt with was appropriate for these guys or not, and for the aggrieved parties to decide what they want to do next.
Jean
Last edited by Jean; 03-22-2008 at 04:06 AM.
03-22-2008, 05:45 AM
#104
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I think you will find punters who feel like they have been shafted feel a little embarrased and do not really want to make that feeling worse by giving details of the "size£££££" of their embarrasment....
Fire off a couple of PMs, you may learn a bit more (of one side)
Last edited by TB993tt; 03-22-2008 at 01:21 PM.
03-22-2008, 02:31 PM
#105
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There are many different solutions for adjusting the fueling of the CIS system in an older car. ALL of them are a patchwork approach since to properly add fuel with the CIS design, you would need to design a new metering plate and fuel head. All of them are a compromise and each has its own issues since you are doing something it wasn't designed to do.
Are you condoning a 7th injector Geoffrey? I know you're mates with Colin and are trying to come to his aid, but you are a respected tuner and know full well that there are far better solutions than strapping on an extra injector to fire fuel into the intake manifold, which is meant to run only air. The only way to get even fuel distribution over the six cylinders is through the injectors behind the intake valves.
The CIS system was designed to comfortably supply enough fuel for the standard 300bhp engine, it has been proven dozens of times on CIS Porsche turbos that a correctly adjusted WUR can drop the fuel pressure to the fuel head sufficiently to supply enough fuel through the injectors to support a lot more power than i had, and with the addition of an RPM controlled solenoid can get a very smooth and controlled fuel curve, add a modified fuel head and there is even more safe controlled fuel. Did you look at the fuel delivery on the dyno sheets i posted earlier? The one showing my fuel after the 7th injector was fitted, in your honest opinion does this look like the work of a respected and professional Porsche turbo engine builder?
Here are two threads where Colin goes on about my engine, he lists the mods and brags about the power, he’s also questioned about the 7th injector. Please just think about what he is claiming here, this is MORE power than a Ruf CTR. He’s the man!!
On Here
On Pistonheads
This is just discussing his power claims and his flawed mechanical knowledge, the fact that he doesn't stand by his work is another discussion i'm willing to get into, and the quality of his work is something James could write a book on.
It's funny that we have two NA customers coming to his defense, i'd like to know of some turbo owners that are as pleased with their "packages", i've got nothing to hide and nothing to gain here, i'm just laying out the facts so that others won't make the same expensive mistakes, there are good turbos tuners out there Colin Belton is not one of them!