The quest for 520hp: Cargraphic / RS-Tuning / RUF

[phelix]

Originally Posted by TB993tt

..... I know Phelix's felt like it had 100hp when he kindly let me drive it and it had a supposed ~480hp and smaller blowers IIRC.

[vhanzon]

Originally Posted by TB993tt

The other problem is the turbos - RSK24/26s are now a bit "old hat", I'm sure Kevin can ellaborate although there are no new programs to deal with the later version 24/26s (OK there are but you will need twin plug and other stuff to work with that program)

I don't know what I'd do if starting afresh...... I'd be tempted to see what Kevin has been doing with a smaller hybrid - do you have any proper dyno sheets Kevin (not the Sportec stuff ) or ideally a PB/DB data sheet 60-130 or similar ?

Great to see you here Toby .

What do you mean with "later version" RSK24/26s? You mean Kevin's version (like we saw in a thread earlier) e.g zero clearanced? You don't think they would work with the DME provided by CG in the 520ps kit mentioned above?
I'm sure if you buy the whole package from CG (as per the link above) it would not be a problem but buying uprated turbos you would have to be cautious. I know what you mean. If you were to start off fresh you would want to try a "newer techlology" setup? After all, things have changed since this kit was created. This is were Kevin comes to mind .


Don't you think it would be possible to do like a modern/custom version of the RUF 490hk kit? Assuming all the necceceties like extra oil cooler, K&N filter, 100cell cats etc. What about a K16/24 hybrid, zero clearanced combined with Carrera 3.2 cams and custom tuned/mapped very close to how the 490hk TurboR was originally setup? That could prove a helluva nice and driveable kit!

[TB993tt]

Felix, I was just checking you were paying attention was kidding, your car felt great, very smooth and drivable particularly in those wet conditions where my ~800NM was unuseable and pointless

Viggo.
I reckon that firstly you could get hold of the RS programming for the kit whose dyno I posted above ie the "520 single plug" kit. Maybe it would be possible to get MOD500s program from his ECU (his was bespoke but written on the engine dyno with K24RS with ZC and the big 100 cell cats and big piping with CG race exhaust) I reckon it would work quite well with a slightly different configuration:

3.8 RS cams
a more modern version of the K24RS (either the 996 version or something Kevin could cook up or maybe even some of these Garrett hybrids) something which is known to be able to flow a real 550PS...
big 100 cell cats
big exhaust piping and CG race exhaust
LWFW (MOD's is programmed to work with this)

I know my twin plug with K24RS worked fine with a set of K16 hybrids, gave only 475PS when engine dynoed but this was the turbos not the programming, I think this programming would work well with what I specced above, the key is to get the turbos right (ie big enough if one wants real 520hp)...... obviously getting MOD's program is also a slight problem

Jon on here also has an RS ECU - I am guessing it is the one which passed around a bit in the UK and was their stage 1 program ~460PS written for a fairly basic K16 hybrid ? If you guys could get the info off that and share it around (can't be too hard nowdays surely) it will for sure have enough headroom in it to work well with other configurations.

One of the reasons I am thinking like this above is when the 7GT2 was on teh engine dyno, RS plugged in their "635PS ECU program" to my engine which was wearing just 200 cell cats and headers. The 635 ECU was written and signed off for a kit which included 100 cell cats and big VTG turbos - my engine in its config gave 620PS with that ECU ! What surprised me was the way RS "tried" that program on my config of just headers and 200 cell cats - and it worked pretty well !!! So RS obviously don't have a problem doing this sort of thing so its good enough for them etc......

[JamesE]

I have written an emulator for the 968, im sure the 993tt wouldn't be much different. If someone can send me an EPROM or BIN i'll take a look at it and see how much effort it would be to decode it.

[JBL930]

James, i have a spare 993 ECU with a "Fearnsport" map, fancy having a play with that?

[DRPM]

Does any one know what exactly the Ruf R 490 kit uses for their turbos
Kxx/xx ?

[Rassel]

Viggo,
I think you should speak with "Rickard 993 Turbo" on this board. He has experience with several U.S Tuners and can help you if you want to explore that route. Otherwise Levin isn't too shabby either. He used to race Big HP air-cooled machines. So he's not just a bolt-on type of guy.

[Kevin]

DRPM, the turbochargers that RUF R 490 sell are K16 based hybrids. Over the years they have produced different TWEAK's.. I have a pair sitting on my shelf. These are VERY good fast spooling turbochargers. Extensive machine work is done keep exhaust back-pressure down.

RS Tuning has designed there own K24 hybrid ala K24/26 which is distinct to there company. This design can be improved with my Zero clearance process. I will say that many companies have tried to copy these units, but few have matched there success. In the end it comes down to the CNC work and how the wheels are machined (compressor and turbine)and the clearances are set up.

I have built the "next" generation or newer version turbocharger. It can be based on the K16 turbine OR K24 turbine housings. Each hot side has there own benifits and negatives. The K24 platform is designed to spool up quicker vs the normal K24's. I have built a new K24 "HyFlow" turbine wheel that will knock out 350 RPM's of lag during spool up. The compressor wheel that is utilized comes from the NEW 997GT2.. Toby can vouch and tell us what boost pressures he is seeing. This compressor wheel is VERY efficient and is able to support reasonable HP levels.

I have went one step further and modeled the KKK K26 compressor housing with 75mm inducer inlets and put it into production. This compressor housing will FIT and look like the standard K16 or K24 compressor housing (same housing>no different)

A local Rennlister "Pete" has a set of these turbochargers. His opinion on spool up and power deliver >low boost and high boost mapping vs his Stage 1 K16/24 hybrids (which btw are similar to RUF's units). I think he posted a track video with the car in action>low boost.

[JBL930]

If you find that you can easily read and play with that one i'll let you look at the RS one. The only problem is i'm told that they have a block/code on the RS ones that prevent anyone playing with it. There was a 993GT2 in the UK that had an RS map, and when RS were asked by a UK guy how to get in and make adjustments they were told to send the car back to RS. I think (only from the grapevine) that you'll hit a brick wall, although there must be a computer nerd among us who can hack in

[pstoppani]

Originally Posted by Kevin

A local Rennlister "Pete" has a set of these turbochargers. His opinion on spool up and power deliver >low boost and high boost mapping vs his Stage 1 K16/24 hybrids (which btw are similar to RUF's units).

It isn't a completely apples to apples comparison because the engine also has no cats which I believe help with reducing spool up time. When I had Stage 1 I had Kevin's 100 cell cats. Also, there are different (fast reacting) diverters, cams, and obviously different ECU programming (by Kevin).

I'm very pleased with Kevin's new turbos. Driving around town it feels pretty much like the Stage 1. At the track, this setup has a smoother on throttle transition, which may be due to different/faster diverters than the usual billet items that I had before. It is much easier to drive smoothly (even when I ran a higher boost program for a few sessions).

Also, the sound with CG mufflers and no cats is only slightly louder than with the 100 cell cats.

Nice "bit of kit"

[OldGuy]

I never said I would get 520hp without rebuild?

You didnt say that. I just brought it up because its a common sales gimmick and a common belief than you can just bolt on an other 100 hp.
I even believed it back then. But people like Toby and Kevin etc etc have done so much research-they have shown what is really needed to get above 500hp. Also your question will come up in searches since its a very good question and often asked question. Thats all. Good luck though.

[TB993tt]

Originally Posted by JBL930

If you find that you can easily read and play with that one i'll let you look at the RS one. The only problem is i'm told that they have a block/code on the RS ones that prevent anyone playing with it. There was a 993GT2 in the UK that had an RS map, and when RS were asked by a UK guy how to get in and make adjustments they were told to send the car back to RS. I think (only from the grapevine) that you'll hit a brick wall, although there must be a computer nerd among us who can hack in

That was Vic and it was Wayne at Chip Wizards who eventually managed to decode it. I think the moot point is should one be making adjustments to RS's program, more importantly is the person making the adjustments doing a good job at it ? what tool is he using, what real experience does he have ?

Originally Posted by Kevin

I have built a new K24 "HyFlow" turbine wheel that will knock out 350 RPM's of lag during spool up. The compressor wheel that is utilized comes from the NEW 997GT2.. Toby can vouch and tell us what boost pressures he is seeing. This compressor wheel is VERY efficient and is able to support reasonable HP levels.

I have went one step further and modeled the KKK K26 compressor housing with 75mm inducer inlets and put it into production. This compressor housing will FIT and look like the standard K16 or K24 compressor housing (same housing>no different)

This is what I am talking about
The stock 7GT unit can run 615hp max (but the system runs a bit too hot at hese levels) and even Porsche run it at ~545PS stock so this compressor is the bad boy... In VTG form it produces 0.5bar by 2200rpm !

Having reflected on what I wrote before I guess it may work using a "635PS" program on a car with components for ~540PS or like I did a set of K16s with a program tuned to run K24s but if one does it the other way round like Jon's 460PS program on a big K24 engine then it will not work because the air mass targets will be set far too low and will go out of range when the big blowers start to do their thing....
I am wondering whether Wayne at Chip Wizards managed to copy the existing program on Vic's car, this was a "stock" single plug 520 program (in fact it needed the alterations after the engine went twin plug - not from RS). One of you guys should contact Wayne - if the program is there and useable it could be a very cost effective route to a nice modern 520 package...

[TB993tt]

Originally Posted by vhanzon

What do you mean with "later version" RSK24/26s? You mean Kevin's version (like we saw in a thread earlier) e.g zero clearanced? You don't think they would work with the DME provided by CG in the 520ps kit mentioned above?

I was actually reffering to a different set of RS24/26s which I had after the ones Kevin has seen - these were made for the 996tt and RS had the snails altered so they would fit 993tt application. I don't know the differences but RS said they were based on the Alzen turbos on that 996tt monster. I had the bigger 100 cell cats put on and bigger diameter exhaust piping and CG race mufflers (which BTW are THE best mufflers out there for teh 993tt IMO) and after more engine dyno time got the curve below - The maximum RS had seen on a 993tt with stock intercooling, the car was very fast with this curve with 525PS from 5000rpm !!!

[vhanzon]

Wow, great discussion. Thanks for your responses. This is almost too much info to digest.. I think I'll have to go through all the possible options and then come up with some kind of short list.

Originally Posted by TB993tt

Viggo.
I reckon that firstly you could get hold of the RS programming for the kit whose dyno I posted above ie the "520 single plug" kit. Maybe it would be possible to get MOD500s program from his ECU (his was bespoke but written on the engine dyno with K24RS with ZC and the big 100 cell cats and big piping with CG race exhaust) I reckon it would work quite well with a slightly different configuration:

3.8 RS cams
a more modern version of the K24RS (either the 996 version or something Kevin could cook up or maybe even some of these Garrett hybrids) something which is known to be able to flow a real 550PS...
big 100 cell cats
big exhaust piping and CG race exhaust
LWFW (MOD's is programmed to work with this)

..obviously getting MOD's program is also a slight problem

Toby, I have been in close contact with my local CG distributor. They say that basically I can pick and buy individual parts from the CG 520PS kit. That was partly why I asked before what the differences are between the CG 520PS kit and the RS-Tuning 520PS kit, which you seem to be more knowledgable of. Basically CG is RS-Tuning but in retail "bolt-on" version, as you mentioned. The RS-Tuning 520PS kit seem to involve more custom tuning and modfying the engine. But I assume the hardware used (e.g blowers, cams etc.) is the same. So everything can be sourced.

So sourcing the CG 520PS DME alone is not a problem. It's expensive but it can be done.. Whether or not that is the same map as the RS-Tuning 520PS DME I dare not say. It would be conveniant but I don't know. I guess we will never know . I'm still learning here, but I am all ears when it comes to a modern interpretation of the RS 520PS kit. The biggest issue right now I think would be to source a set of blowers.. I will talk to Kevin about this. I will have to get in touch with MOD as well, should I decide to go this route. Why did MOD decide to go with the 3.8 RS cams? Are these similar to the ones provided by RS-Tuning for their 520PS kit? Another interesting idea is to make use of Kevin's new line of turbos, try to match these with proper cams and hardware.. As I said. endless possibilitied. It's hard to think straight .

But all-in-all, if I can source a set of RS turbos, I'd love to go with what you suggested, a modern version of the RS 520PS kit.

Originally Posted by Rassel

Viggo,
I think you should speak with "Rickard 993 Turbo" on this board. He has experience with several U.S Tuners and can help you if you want to explore that route. Otherwise Levin isn't too shabby either. He used to race Big HP air-cooled machines. So he's not just a bolt-on type of guy.

Rassel, Levin is who I am referring to as "my local CG distributor". He's 20kms away from where I garage the car. Good guys to deal with and I understand, just as you say that they have lots of experiance with Porsche Racing.

Acually an other option that I am considering is a complete custom build. The man for the job in that case is Micke Svens (www.spezialmotorer.com, no affil). This guy is a real professional. I talked to him yesturday and he suggested me to keep my current KKK24's, 100cell cats, sport muffs, Turbo S oil cooler, K&N filter and let him do the rest. He does everything by himself. Custom cams, custom mapping etc. Quite impressive. He said there are basically two stages: Either non-split case upgrade with estimated hp of around 520-540 or split case operation with cylinder head porting, welding the halves, custom cams etc. Sky is the limit both as far as hp and price. The "basic" split case config would be about twice as expensive as the RS-Tuning 520PS kit but would yield around 580-590hp with decent boost pressures. It's a little over my budget and a bit overkill for a mostly street car. So I basically ruled that out.

He could (maybe preferably) be the one carrying out the work on the car (him or Levin), should I decide to go with aftermarket turbos and custom cams and software. He is kind of expensive but there's no question that this guy knows what he is doing! . He was going on and on about the dimension of the turbo pipe (can't remember if it was inlet or outlet) and how you must have the bigger version (24?) because that's a major restriction to big hp. Sorry for not being more precise.

Originally Posted by Kevin

I have built the "next" generation or newer version turbocharger. It can be based on the K16 turbine OR K24 turbine housings. Each hot side has there own benifits and negatives. The K24 platform is designed to spool up quicker vs the normal K24's. I have built a new K24 "HyFlow" turbine wheel that will knock out 350 RPM's of lag during spool up. The compressor wheel that is utilized comes from the NEW 997GT2.. Toby can vouch and tell us what boost pressures he is seeing. This compressor wheel is VERY efficient and is able to support reasonable HP levels.

I have went one step further and modeled the KKK K26 compressor housing with 75mm inducer inlets and put it into production. This compressor housing will FIT and look like the standard K16 or K24 compressor housing (same housing>no different)

A local Rennlister "Pete" has a set of these turbochargers. His opinion on spool up and power deliver >low boost and high boost mapping vs his Stage 1 K16/24 hybrids (which btw are similar to RUF's units). I think he posted a track video with the car in action>low boost.

Very interesting, now we are talking! I would love to know the specifics of Pete's setup! I think I'll email you separately Kevin, I'd like to know what kind of software and cams you would want to see together with these new (revolutionary?) turbos!

Originally Posted by OldGuy

You didnt say that. I just brought it up because its a common sales gimmick and a common belief than you can just bolt on an other 100 hp.
I even believed it back then. But people like Toby and Kevin etc etc have done so much research-they have shown what is really needed to get above 500hp. Also your question will come up in searches since its a very good question and often asked question. Thats all. Good luck though.

You're right. Thanks for pointing that out.

I'm starting to think maybe I shouldn't just be concerned with the maximum hp figure of 520, but rather look at driveability issues since this will be a mostly street car. If you look at it that way I guess a K16/24 hybrid could be a very good alternative. What I like though about the RS-Tuning K24/26 turbos, is that if I decide to split the engine somewhere down the road (and do Ti rods, bigger I/C etc) I can still keep the turbos because they will be enough to power a 540-600hp engine as well.





I feel like a proper introduction of the car which I'm performing these mods to is in order. Stay tuned for separate thread (with pics) .

[JBL930]

If you are going to do cams you already have the heads off, it's a very small job from that to pop the barrels off and fit Arrow con rods, a few extra hours max. It would also be a good idea at that point to check your exhaust valve guides as they are a weak point on the heads. Basically you can get a strong bottom end done without having to split the case, Carrillo rods require a case split as the oil pump needs machining, but the Arrow ones go in without issue.

Also, the 993 3.8RS cams are what RS Tuning use for the 520 kit