The quest for 520hp: Cargraphic / RS-Tuning / RUF - Page 3

Ziad · 10-30-2009, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

I have built the "next" generation or newer version turbocharger. It can be based on the K16 turbine OR K24 turbine housings. Each hot side has there own benifits and negatives. The K24 platform is designed to spool up quicker vs the normal K24's. I have built a new K24 "HyFlow" turbine wheel that will knock out 350 RPM's of lag during spool up. The compressor wheel that is utilized comes from the NEW 997GT2.. Toby can vouch and tell us what boost pressures he is seeing. This compressor wheel is VERY efficient and is able to support reasonable HP levels.

I have went one step further and modeled the KKK K26 compressor housing with 75mm inducer inlets and put it into production. This compressor housing will FIT and look like the standard K16 or K24 compressor housing (same housing>no different)

I'm soooooo happy with the UMW Stage 1 that I'll stick to 450-470hp. The low to mid range torque and driveability are outstanding and still bring a smile to my face after 3 years of daily driving. BUT, if Kevin's new "special turbos" and "goodies" package give the same sort of low to mid-range smoothness and power deliver of the stage 1, but with ~520hp, then I'll start saving from now.... Kevin?

JamesE · 10-30-2009, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBL930

James, i have a spare 993 ECU with a "Fearnsport" map, fancy having a play with that?

John, that would be good. I should pop up and visit you to check your new face any how.

JamesE · 10-30-2009, 05:26 PM

While we are on this subject.... I have never looked at a 993tt ECU, but i'm guessing the MAP is stuck on a EPROM and the "Locking down" is done through the ECU "software", so it may stop the original Motronic interface from letting you remap, but it shouldn't stop me as i'll write the code myself????

Kevin · 10-30-2009, 06:27 PM

James, the European tuners are smarter than that.. They have encrypted chipset>secondary board>NON STOCK.. Unless you have the "key" you won't be able to access the memory.

phelix · 10-30-2009, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamesE

John, that would be good. I should pop up and visit you to check your new face any how.

Has he finally had that surgery?! About bl**dy time!

phelix · 10-30-2009, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TB993tt

Felix, I was just checking you were paying attention

was kidding

I figured as much but do put down the shovel.

JamesE · 10-30-2009, 06:36 PM

Its as if they were expecting people to hack their boards.....

Kevin · 10-30-2009, 06:45 PM

Just to mix up the discussion a little. I have enclosed a picture of a K26/24 cartridge and compressor housing machined/CNC'd into a K16 turbine housing. It is not a easy task.. Massive amounts of metal have been removed within the housing and all diameters have been increase. I have customers that do NOT want lag. One can read Ziad's post. They do not want to sacrifice the bottom end to shift any gains on the topend.

Yes, I have K24 turbine housings available for those that need and want the K24's. But as a business owner I have to adapt and offer components that customers want. We can look at the VNT 997TT housings, they are a tad larger than the K16's> but one can quickly machine a K16 turbine housing to exceed the internal volume. The K24 tubine wheel is a full frame size larger over the K16 turbine wheel. and it does dwarf the K16 turbine wheel in blade area and diameter. FYI, it is the turbine wheel that sets the frame size of the KKK nomenclature. When one machines the K24 turbine into the K16 turbine housing it does add another twist and options to customers.

JBL930 · 10-31-2009, 05:46 AM

Kevin, could you take these and turn them into a pair of new style K24/26's?

James, the op didn't make me look any better mate, just added more scars to my already ugly mug! Boxing in my teens didn't help! Girls like scars though so it's all good

Kevin · 10-31-2009, 06:35 AM

JBL, you have a set of 993 K16's with some funky bronze paint on the turbine housings. So you want to start out with K16 turbine housings vs K24's??

JBL930 · 10-31-2009, 09:21 AM

Not if it isn't a good idea, i just thought from your post that you could do them with any housing. I will need a pair of turbos that will be optimised for the 520ps map. So i guess it will need to follow the RS-K24/26 design with whatever tweak you think will improve it?
If it's a good idea and it would save money to use my current turbos then that would make sense, if it's a compromise and i would be loosing something along the line, be it performance or cost then obviously not.

Rassel · 10-31-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vhanzon

Rassel, Levin is who I am referring to as "my local CG distributor". He's 20kms away from where I garage the car. Good guys to deal with and I understand, just as you say that they have lots of experience with Porsche Racing.

Acually an other option that I am considering is a complete custom build. The man for the job in that case is Micke Svens (www.spezialmotorer.com, no affil). This guy is a real professional. I talked to him yesturday and he suggested me to keep my current KKK24's, 100cell cats, sport muffs, Turbo S oil cooler, K&N filter and let him do the rest. He does everything by himself. Custom cams, custom mapping etc. Quite impressive. He said there are basically two stages: Either non-split case upgrade with estimated hp of around 520-540 or split case operation with cylinder head porting, welding the halves, custom cams etc. Sky is the limit both as far as hp and price. The "basic" split case config would be about twice as expensive as the RS-Tuning 520PS kit but would yield around 580-590hp with decent boost pressures. It's a little over my budget and a bit overkill for a mostly street car. So I basically ruled that out.

He could (maybe preferably) be the one carrying out the work on the car (him or Levin), should I decide to go with aftermarket turbos and custom cams and software. He is kind of expensive but there's no question that this guy knows what he is doing!

. He was going on and on about the dimension of the turbo pipe (can't remember if it was inlet or outlet) and how you must have the bigger version (24?) because that's a major restriction to big hp. Sorry for not being more precise.

If you head to Micke, keep in mind that you need to precisely know what you want and what your goals are. He has done some very custom solutions with some very impressive results. But as you said it usually comes with a price tag...

JBL930 · 10-31-2009, 11:25 AM

Love this vid of a 935 engine Micke built http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPfK_BispVo Would love to have this in the back of my 930

vhanzon · 10-31-2009, 01:02 PM

There are good news and bad news.

Good news is that when I least expected it I got an email from RUF basically answering all my questions

. I had more or less given up that alternative as a result of numerous emails and phone calls leading nowhere. And waiting, lot's of it... . . . . I think they are just really really busy. RUF has to be my #1 choice for a mostly street car. It's a proven package. It even comes with a warranty. Expensive but great value to boot. And a very driveable alternative producing (from what I have heard) in excess of 500hp with minimal lag.

The bad news is that the quote I got (which in itself is a ton of money) is without labour charges

. I didn't realize this before. I have no idea what they charge for this but I would expect around 40hours of work maybe? (turbos, cams, oil cooler, cats etc.). I guess I'll just have to wait and see what they say next week. RUF will retain the stock rods with this package.

I'll have to summarize/line up the different alternatives and their respective ballpark costs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBL930

If you are going to do cams you already have the heads off, it's a very small job from that to pop the barrels off and fit Arrow con rods, a few extra hours max. It would also be a good idea at that point to check your exhaust valve guides as they are a weak point on the heads. Basically you can get a strong bottom end done without having to split the case, Carrillo rods require a case split as the oil pump needs machining, but the Arrow ones go in without issue.

Also, the 993 3.8RS cams are what RS Tuning use for the 520 kit

Thanks for pointing that out. That would be a good "while you are in there" at reasonable cost. It will also further the longevity of the build.

I think the 993RS 3.8 cams are like 1400usd new. Good to know because CG charges 1625eur for the cams in the 520ps kit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin

I have customers that do NOT want lag.

Yes, I have K24 turbine housings available for those that need and want the K24's. But as a business owner I have to adapt and offer components that customers want. We can look at the VNT 997TT housings, they are a tad larger than the K16's> but one can quickly machine a K16 turbine housing to exceed the internal volume. The K24 tubine wheel is a full frame size larger over the K16 turbine wheel. and it does dwarf the K16 turbine wheel in blade area and diameter. FYI, it is the turbine wheel that sets the frame size of the KKK nomenclature. When one machines the K24 turbine into the K16 turbine housing it does add another twist and options to customers.

I got your email Kevin, thanks. Just to clear things up a bit: Do you use the KKK24 turbos as a base for making your special "RS-Tuning K24/26 ZC" Turbos?

Also, what kind of powerband can you except your special "RS-Tuning K24/26 ZC" to work in? 490-550hk depending on setup?

I know from the link posted in my initial post that RS-Tuning uses the same K24RS turbos for their 490ish kit as for their 520ish kit. The only difference there being that the cams are replaced in the 520ps kit. But should one decide to up the boost a bit or do other upgrades (twin plug, con rods, I/C, tweaked DME), AFAIK your RS K24/26 ZC turbos are capable of making more power than 520hp? I mean the turbos wouldn't be the limiting factor in that case. Sorry if it's unclear but I'm fairly new to this, still learning

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rassel

If you head to Micke, keep in mind that you need to precisely know what you want and what your goals are. He has done some very custom solutions with some very impressive results. But as you said it usually comes with a price tag...

That was my impression as well. Endless possibilities. I'm thinking already it's not what I'm looking for. It will be overkill for a mostly street driven car.

Btw I got a PM from Rickard. Thanks for keeping me in the loop

.

JBL930 · 10-31-2009, 01:28 PM

Toby, do you know whether Martyn's car uses stock orange injectors, and is it single or twin plug?
More importantly, how certain are you that Vic's GT2 was running the RS 520 kit? Wayne said it only posted 470-480bhp when it came to him, maybe Vic had changed the turbos or cams and something was out of kilter? I know you said he had gone twin plug, but that wouldn't loose power would it

10-30-2009, 05:26 PM	#33
JamesE Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: London Posts: 592	While we are on this subject.... I have never looked at a 993tt ECU, but i'm guessing the MAP is stuck on a EPROM and the "Locking down" is done through the ECU "software", so it may stop the original Motronic interface from letting you remap, but it shouldn't stop me as i'll write the code myself???? __________________ 968 CS 964 Turbo 993 RSR BMW 320se

10-30-2009, 06:27 PM	#34
Kevin Addict Rennlist Member Rennlist Site Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Northwest Posts: 5,257	James, the European tuners are smarter than that.. They have encrypted chipset>secondary board>NON STOCK.. Unless you have the "key" you won't be able to access the memory. __________________ www.Ultimatemotorwerks.com kevin@ultimatemotorwerks.com kmatwichuk@att.net 360.805-9066

10-30-2009, 06:36 PM	#37
JamesE Addict Rennlist Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: London Posts: 592	Its as if they were expecting people to hack their boards..... __________________ 968 CS 964 Turbo 993 RSR BMW 320se

10-30-2009, 06:45 PM	#38
Kevin Addict Rennlist Member Rennlist Site Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Northwest Posts: 5,257	Just to mix up the discussion a little. I have enclosed a picture of a K26/24 cartridge and compressor housing machined/CNC'd into a K16 turbine housing. It is not a easy task.. Massive amounts of metal have been removed within the housing and all diameters have been increase. I have customers that do NOT want lag. One can read Ziad's post. They do not want to sacrifice the bottom end to shift any gains on the topend. Yes, I have K24 turbine housings available for those that need and want the K24's. But as a business owner I have to adapt and offer components that customers want. We can look at the VNT 997TT housings, they are a tad larger than the K16's> but one can quickly machine a K16 turbine housing to exceed the internal volume. The K24 tubine wheel is a full frame size larger over the K16 turbine wheel. and it does dwarf the K16 turbine wheel in blade area and diameter. FYI, it is the turbine wheel that sets the frame size of the KKK nomenclature. When one machines the K24 turbine into the K16 turbine housing it does add another twist and options to customers. __________________ www.Ultimatemotorwerks.com kevin@ultimatemotorwerks.com kmatwichuk@att.net 360.805-9066

10-31-2009, 06:35 AM	#40
Kevin Addict Rennlist Member Rennlist Site Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Northwest Posts: 5,257	JBL, you have a set of 993 K16's with some funky bronze paint on the turbine housings. So you want to start out with K16 turbine housings vs K24's?? __________________ www.Ultimatemotorwerks.com kevin@ultimatemotorwerks.com kmatwichuk@att.net 360.805-9066

10-31-2009, 05:46 AM	#39
JBL930 User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: South East, UK Posts: 1,034	Kevin, could you take these and turn them into a pair of new style K24/26's? James, the op didn't make me look any better mate, just added more scars to my already ugly mug! Boxing in my teens didn't help! Girls like scars though so it's all good

10-31-2009, 09:21 AM	#41
JBL930 User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: South East, UK Posts: 1,034	Not if it isn't a good idea, i just thought from your post that you could do them with any housing. I will need a pair of turbos that will be optimised for the 520ps map. So i guess it will need to follow the RS-K24/26 design with whatever tweak you think will improve it? If it's a good idea and it would save money to use my current turbos then that would make sense, if it's a compromise and i would be loosing something along the line, be it performance or cost then obviously not.

10-31-2009, 11:25 AM	#43
JBL930 User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: South East, UK Posts: 1,034	Love this vid of a 935 engine Micke built http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPfK_BispVo Would love to have this in the back of my 930

10-31-2009, 01:28 PM	#45
JBL930 User Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: South East, UK Posts: 1,034	Toby, do you know whether Martyn's car uses stock orange injectors, and is it single or twin plug? More importantly, how certain are you that Vic's GT2 was running the RS 520 kit? Wayne said it only posted 470-480bhp when it came to him, maybe Vic had changed the turbos or cams and something was out of kilter? I know you said he had gone twin plug, but that wouldn't loose power would it