The quest for 520hp: Cargraphic / RS-Tuning / RUF

[MOD500]

This is a great thread

The RS Tuning 520 kit is awesome, very quick and the lag is not that bad at all. Regards the lag I remember a while back at an Anorak's play day at Bruntingthorpe here in the UK that Phelix and myself did a rolling start starting in 2nd gear from 2, 000 rpm or so. The RS kit did wind up slightly quicker and pull ahead by a margin despite larger turbos before the cars hit full boost, so don’t be afraid of having big lag with these turbos. The blowers on my car are the K24RS units originally from a previous build on TB's motor, these were then rebuilt by Kevin with ZC, and billet back plates. I am sure Kevin would elucidate further on the spec of the turbos.

The big race cats and race mufflers are essential I think, RS said these helped get the decent numbers from my motor on the engine dyno.

I think if you can combine the RS Tuning mapping with some modern iteration of the K24 / 26 then you would be onto a winner

[phelix]

Viggo, can you post your quote from Ruf? I suspect they'll want to do more than just install their parts but also perform at least a partial top-end rebuild to ensure the health of the engine and that it makes the power figure they're expecting.

[vhanzon]

Originally Posted by MOD500

This is a great thread

The big race cats and race mufflers are essential I think, RS said these helped get the decent numbers from my motor on the engine dyno.

I think if you can combine the RS Tuning mapping with some modern iteration of the K24 / 26 then you would be onto a winner

Hi Martyn, nice to see that you made your way here

I know, that's a really good alternative (to which you seem to be the founding father?) . I am still going to hear RUF out before I decide on anything as that's my number one candidate.

I'm a bit surprised that RS-Tuning said the cats and mufflers helped the dyno numbers. The cats no doubts (100cell cats seem to be the only way to go) but mufflers arguably provide any peformance gains at all. I know RUF for example use the stardard 993TT mufflers in their TurboR kit. And muffler bypasses provides for a bit quicker spool up but if you have mufflers, I'd tend to think it doesn't really matter whichones you have as long as they don't they restrict airflow.

How much "tweaking" did it take to get your car to where it is today? What kind of issues did you have that needed to be sorted out in the process? I'm just thinking out loud here: Your setup is not really a "bolt on" kit like the one CG offers, eventhough the hardware used is similar. A "bolt on" kit is just that, "bolt on" whereas replicating your setup might require some tweaking to get the car to run well. It's the degree of "tweaking" that I'm concerned about...

Expect a PM coming your way soon.. .. .

Originally Posted by phelix

Viggo, can you post your quote from Ruf?

phelix, PM sent.

[TB993tt]

Originally Posted by vhanzon

I'm a bit surprised that RS-Tuning said the cats and mufflers helped the dyno numbers. The cats no doubts (100cell cats seem to be the only way to go) but mufflers arguably provide any peformance gains at all. I know RUF for example use the stardard 993TT mufflers in their TurboR kit. And muffler bypasses provides for a bit quicker spool up but if you have mufflers, I'd tend to think it doesn't really matter whichones you have as long as they don't they restrict airflow.

.

The 520 kit in the CG catalogue and the one which we talk about from RS is based on the "old" 100 cell cats. My car when I went with the 996tt K24RSs had the newer (then) type 100 cell which were bigger (130mm I think) and less restrictive, with these we used a bigger diameter piping from cat to muffler then the CG "race" mufflers (which IIRC) also have bigger diameter inlet and internals so major reduction in back pressure - all this allowed peak power at 6500rpm (with the old set up peak was at ~5500-5750rpm).

MOD had the exact same exhaust set up on his and when his came back from the engine dyno his had peak power at the same level ~6500rpm - makes the engine "scream" a bit better higher up

[JBL930]

Toby, are you on about these ones?

http://www.cargraphic.co.uk/index.ph...3,731/&start=6

[TB993tt]

Originally Posted by JBL930

Toby, are you on about these ones?

http://www.cargraphic.co.uk/index.ph...3,731/&start=6

Dunno...... The bigger 130mm units were welded in.

[ca993twin]

phelix said : "Viggo, can you post your quote from Ruf? I suspect they'll want to do more than just install their parts but also perform at least a partial top-end rebuild to ensure the health of the engine and that it makes the power figure they're expecting. "

I purchased Rufus a year after the Ruf conversion was performed. At the time it was performed, the car had 86,000 miles on it. In order to give any sort of warranty on an engine with those miles Ruf insisted (so it was told to me) on a total rebuild. Split case, new everything including brand new heads! I think phelix is correct... their quote may include more than just the performance parts.

BTW, Rufus now has 120,000 miles, is solid as a rock, and faster than bloody blue blazes (for an old geezer).

[vhanzon]

Originally Posted by TB993tt

..My car when I went with the 996tt K24RSs had the newer (then) type 100 cell which were bigger (130mm I think) and less restrictive, with these we used a bigger diameter piping from cat to muffler then the CG "race" mufflers (which IIRC) also have bigger diameter inlet and internals so major reduction in back pressure - all this allowed peak power at 6500rpm (with the old set up peak was at ~5500-5750rpm).

MOD had the exact same exhaust set up on his and when his came back from the engine dyno his had peak power at the same level ~6500rpm - makes the engine "scream" a bit better higher up

So I've heard and I do believe the newer type 130mm 100cell cats do make a difference. I just think it's strange that RUF didn't bother to replace the mufflers at all. You have to think it is such an insignificant cost in the context, that if they believed race mufflers would do better performance wise, they would certainly have used them. Instead with the TurboR convertion, even to this day the stock mufflers are retained.

Originally Posted by TB993tt

Dunno...... The bigger 130mm units were welded in.

Yes, those are the "old style" 100cell cats from the CG520 kit that you talked about Toby. I havn't seen the updated version, maybe the pipes are the same and just the cartridges are replaced. I would think they must be similar to Kevin's 130mm 100cell cats.

Originally Posted by ca993twin

I purchased Rufus a year after the Ruf conversion was performed. At the time it was performed, the car had 86,000 miles on it. In order to give any sort of warranty on an engine with those miles Ruf insisted (so it was told to me) on a total rebuild. Split case, new everything including brand new heads! I think phelix is correct... their quote may include more than just the performance parts.

BTW, Rufus now has 120,000 miles, is solid as a rock, and faster than bloody blue blazes (for an old geezer).

To quote RUF in our last conversation: "The quoted price is for the TurboR hardware" whatever that means and "it's difficult to know the assembly costs without having the car here". Finally they also said that the final cost (labor etc.) will "depend on the state of the car". They asked specically for the VIN and mileage. Mine is at 28.XXX miles. I don't know what that means in terms of €€€€€...?




To summerize what has been said so far I still hold RUF as my #1 choice. I fear though that the cost will offset the benefits. While the benefits speak for themselves (proven package, resale, guarantee, mystique, etc. etc.), there's always a point where it just becomes too cost ineffective. What I DO like though with the RUF package, is that I think it suits my needs better than the CG/RS 520ps kit. Because it has loads of that nice mid-range pull and TQ, which is wonderful too have for a mostly street car. It will still be very fun to drive at the track, even if it lacks that last punch. This car will not be a track monster anyways, so I think in that sense the RUF kit suits my needs. I will hear RUF out no matter what.

One drawback of sending the car to RUF is that I get no value whatsoever for what I already have on the car (Gemballa 100cell cats, high-flow Gemballa mufflers, KKK24's, K&N filter, TurboS oil cooler) since everything is core-exchange.

I have been toying with the idea of replicating the RUF TurboR kit. That has to involve speaking to people highly knowledgeable about all things RUF. I understand this will be a compromise either way and that I will not have that "official" TurboR conversion, but rather just a custom tune. If I was to pursue such an option though, I would need to make sure I have at least a fair chance of sourcing the parts necessary. In my opinion, there are three very critical parts that I really need for this to work:

RUF Turbos (or VERY similar KKK16/24 hybrid)
RUF Cams (what are those really??)
RUF DME

If you have any leads on where to find these parts or if you need to clear out your RUF parts bin, feel free to PM me . Just considering all my options here. Does anyone know what kind of cams are used in the TurboR conversion? LAT mentioned in an old thread that the RUF cams are similar to the Carrera 3.2 cams, is this true? As far as the DME, it is pretty much impossible to copy AFAIK. I havn't asked yet (I don't dare to) but I don't think you can buy individual parts from RUF.

[Bradford]

Viggo,

Have you checked with GMG as they had a 5,000 mile complete Ruf motor for sale. Seems like if you buy one that is done you could probably sell your motor for a good price and come out ahead. Just my .002. Good luck

[MOD500]

The exhaust and cats did help the numbers as TB alluded in his post, this set up sounds great too

The original thread I posted nearly 4 years ago (time flies) gives the list of everything done:

http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforum...ding-road.html

The main issue post tuning was the valve springs that although tested during the rebuild and found to be within specification, were not up to the job when the engine was in the car at WOT on the road. This triggered the CEL and despite the car feeling savagely fast via the butt dyno, in reality a GPS datalogger and testing with TB showed it to be doing the 60 - 130mph test in the same time as a stock car!

Other bits and prices had to be sorted around that time also, but these were wear items unconnected with the mods, such as a new alarm, etc, etc.

I think you would be happy with either RS Tuning or RUF, the moot point to me is that the RS 520 motor would make big torque and feel much stronger and muscular than the RUF package.

Regards the engine rebuild side of things, irrespective of mod route you would need to freshen the engine to some degree to make the most of your 500 hp + RS or RUF upgrade, especially if you want a warranty of some form. To neglect this essential element of the mod route would be false economy in my view, a leak down test would give some indication of the health of your motor.

A further thought is if you favour the RUF package at circa 500 hp then don't discount the 474 and 493 PS kits from RS. Obviously going for lower power & torque such as these kits means at 28k miles (leak down test dependant) your engine *might* not need major rebuild work now, thought it would of course need it somewhere down the line depending on mileage / type of usage.

Please shoot me any further questions you may have, I will try my best to answer them

[MOD500]

A video courtesy of Ruxpin giving an idea of the sound of the muffler / cat set up :

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?...=MOD500&hl=en#

And one from JBL:

http://s139.photobucket.com/albums/q...heBenaaana.flv


Enjoy

[LAT]

Originally Posted by Bradford

Viggo,

Have you checked with GMG as they had a 5,000 mile complete Ruf motor for sale. Seems like if you buy one that is done you could probably sell your motor for a good price and come out ahead. Just my .002. Good luck

Sounds sensible to me.

[LAT]

=vhanzon;? LAT mentioned in an old thread that the RUF cams are similar to the Carrera 3.2 cams, is this true?

Yes this is true, from a Ruf insider.

[msw]

i could be wrong but i believe the gmg 'ruf' motor is sans ruf ecu...

[vhanzon]

Just got off the phone with RUF. Good news! The price I was quoted includes everything. However, if they see that the engine requires additional
work, such as new heads etc. then there will be additional costs. I'm not too concerned about this since my car only has 45.000kms. Now that I got this news I'm pretty much set on RUF weee. The difference in labor cost would have tipped the scales for me (that would have been another 5K euros + VAT). Eventhough the TurboR conversion is a lot of dough, the RUF package is proven, has great resale value and even offers a guarantee Plus it's a very driveable kit, with tremendous mid-range power.

As far as RUF vs. RS tuning vs. Kevin's ZC turbos and all that, it's very interesting discussion. What I have learned
though from this whole experiance is that you have to look at everything as a package. As soon as you start fiddling with individual components
within a package you are playing with fire IMHO. Most often you will not benefit from these changes unless the DME is adopted to work with them.
So eventhough Kevins "tweaked" version of the RS-Tuning turbos most certainly make the turbos "better", you still need to modify the DME to
make full use of the uprated turbos. That kind of DME is not available outright from RS/CG. What you can do is something that Martyn did (thanks a lot Martyn for your contribution to this thread), box the engine after the modifications in a crate and send it to RS-Tuning for a dyno run/live remap. I think if you are looking at track time, the TurboR kit is not the package
you want. Then you would want a K24 based kit of a K24/26 like CG/RS. For my application, the RUF kit is perfect.

It also the consensus that RUF are very moderate about their actual hp dyno numbers. I think if you dyno the TurboR I wouldn't be surprised if produced in excess of 500hp. That's just purely speculative, based on what others have said. A bird whispered in my ear that a RUF TurboR produced 685NM on a dyno recently . . ..

Originally Posted by Bradford

Viggo,

Have you checked with GMG as they had a 5,000 mile complete Ruf motor for sale. Seems like if you buy one that is done you could probably sell your motor for a good price and come out ahead. Just my .002. Good luck

Bradford, thanks for the advice! Good one. I read the threads about this engine and it seems it has quite a history to go with it...

Now man if you were only still making those bumpers. . . ..

Originally Posted by MOD500

I think you would be happy with either RS Tuning or RUF, the moot point to me is that the RS 520 motor would make big torque and feel much stronger and muscular than the RUF package.

Regards the engine rebuild side of things, irrespective of mod route you would need to freshen the engine to some degree to make the most of your 500 hp + RS or RUF upgrade, especially if you want a warranty of some form. To neglect this essential element of the mod route would be false economy in my view, a leak down test would give some indication of the health of your motor.

A further thought is if you favour the RUF package at circa 500 hp then don't discount the 474 and 493 PS kits from RS. Obviously going for lower power & torque such as these kits means at 28k miles (leak down test dependant) your engine *might* not need major rebuild work now, thought it would of course need it somewhere down the line depending on mileage / type of usage.

Please shoot me any further questions you may have, I will try my best to answer them

Thanks Martyn, you've been very helpful! And some good advice on the FVD packages as well. Less extreme but driveable and affordable performance to boot. As I said above (with motivation) RUF is my best bet at this point. I think it's really cool that they are still offering this conversion for a 12 year old car .

Originally Posted by LAT

Yes this is true, from a Ruf insider.

I wonder how much they differ.. On a restricted budget, it would be cool to throw on a set of tweaked K16 hybrids, Carrera 3.2 cams and see what happens.




I will keep you guys updated as I progress..