Seeking advice from fellow Rennlisters
08-07-2014, 06:07 PM
#1
Seeking advice from fellow Rennlisters
I have a friend who sent his car to a shop for some high power performance modifications. No one has ever said a bad word about this shop on Rennlist—we’ve searched everywhere on here to confirm this. The results are nothing but praise, admiration, and confidence in this shop’s word and their work. The car was delivered to this shop during the middle of 2012. After numerous promises, questionable excuses, unreturned emails, and unreturned phone calls the car is still not completed. My friend has been more patient than I think is reasonable, but he is close to going over the edge on this. Is it normal for a well-respected shop to take more than 2 years to complete a project? My friend is looking for some guidance from the experts here on methods to resolve this without going nuclear on the shop in question.
Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Greg A
Any advice is appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Greg A
08-07-2014, 06:13 PM
#3
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I would have gone nuclear at least 1.5 years ago . . . This is nuts! Assuming the car is not in a thousand pieces, I would take it away from these morons as soon as possible with a good lawyer in tow.
08-07-2014, 06:19 PM
#5
Thank you for your advice. The last time my friend saw the car it was "98%" completed and running when a "mystery" problem arose. That was earlier this year. It's hard to know if it is still together now because he rarely gets responses from the shop.
Greg A
08-07-2014, 07:21 PM
#6
Drifting
I would def pay a visit to the shop and see for yourself the status.
After that, might as well disclose the shop so anyone in the future doesn't make the same mistake.
2.5 years is absurd....
After that, might as well disclose the shop so anyone in the future doesn't make the same mistake.
2.5 years is absurd....
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08-07-2014, 09:12 PM
#8
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I think you changed the topic title - and my comments got blasted away - weird.
Here is what I wrote
--------------
Yes, facts are important since their is always two sides to each story - sometimes though one side's story in this case seems pretty crappy.
What exactly is being done, a 3.8 rebuild? With the proper parts in place, that is not much more work than a normal rebuild - even if other things are being done, 2 years is way way way over the top. It should take a few months tops for a pro shop.
Your friend needs to talk to the owner of the shop, and give them clear deadlines and the consequences of missing a deadline in a written document. He does not have to be an ****ole, but be firm, and if something is missed, take action! Negotiation with them, and get agreement, If they have excuses like "oh, we cannot trust our supplier" then that would be a BIG warning flag and I would pull the car.
One of the deadlines can be for instance that the engine long block is complete, or the engine is in the car - the final deadline, that the car is finished and can be picked up, if missed perhaps the consequence can be that a tow truck is showing up to remove the car, and no payment will be made for any parts, or another might be the lawsuit is launched.
I would hold-back money in this case because TT's can be tricky, and if they screwed up you need a lever. In once case, I had a car in the shop, 50 miles on a full "performance" rebuild on a TT, and one piston had a 25% leakdown - and the bill had been paid. I could not believe the mechanic was trying to convince me that it was "carbon" under the valve seat then the engine had 50 miles on it. Make sure there is a lever of some kind.
If not clear deadlines and possible financial penalties are put to them in writing the agreement is all verbal and always subject to interpretations. Both parties sign the document, this is key since they will then consider it serious and read the thing. If they don't want to sign, then I would remove the car, they are not being serious.
You have a few levers : One is money- no work done, no pay. The second is reputation: You will detail out the details of the work to be done and post them here on Rennlist. If they meet the dates, hurrah and they have recovered their reputation, if they miss, they are sunk.
I am not sure if its gone that serious yet, but come on, losing a car for two years is totally nuts. Even I am not that slow!
Cheers,
Mike
Here is what I wrote
--------------
Yes, facts are important since their is always two sides to each story - sometimes though one side's story in this case seems pretty crappy.
What exactly is being done, a 3.8 rebuild? With the proper parts in place, that is not much more work than a normal rebuild - even if other things are being done, 2 years is way way way over the top. It should take a few months tops for a pro shop.
Your friend needs to talk to the owner of the shop, and give them clear deadlines and the consequences of missing a deadline in a written document. He does not have to be an ****ole, but be firm, and if something is missed, take action! Negotiation with them, and get agreement, If they have excuses like "oh, we cannot trust our supplier" then that would be a BIG warning flag and I would pull the car.
One of the deadlines can be for instance that the engine long block is complete, or the engine is in the car - the final deadline, that the car is finished and can be picked up, if missed perhaps the consequence can be that a tow truck is showing up to remove the car, and no payment will be made for any parts, or another might be the lawsuit is launched.
I would hold-back money in this case because TT's can be tricky, and if they screwed up you need a lever. In once case, I had a car in the shop, 50 miles on a full "performance" rebuild on a TT, and one piston had a 25% leakdown - and the bill had been paid. I could not believe the mechanic was trying to convince me that it was "carbon" under the valve seat then the engine had 50 miles on it. Make sure there is a lever of some kind.
If not clear deadlines and possible financial penalties are put to them in writing the agreement is all verbal and always subject to interpretations. Both parties sign the document, this is key since they will then consider it serious and read the thing. If they don't want to sign, then I would remove the car, they are not being serious.
You have a few levers : One is money- no work done, no pay. The second is reputation: You will detail out the details of the work to be done and post them here on Rennlist. If they meet the dates, hurrah and they have recovered their reputation, if they miss, they are sunk.
I am not sure if its gone that serious yet, but come on, losing a car for two years is totally nuts. Even I am not that slow!
Cheers,
Mike
08-07-2014, 09:27 PM
#9
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At least its been appreciating the last 2 years!
Seriously though- Mike J said it best, if all of that has been done, its time to get it out of there.
Good luck and keep us posted.
Seriously though- Mike J said it best, if all of that has been done, its time to get it out of there.
Good luck and keep us posted.
08-07-2014, 10:03 PM
#10
It is an NA 993 that was first converted to TT and then later sent to this shop to be upgraded to a 3.8 TT.
Mike, thank you again for the great advice! I didn't change the thread title. There are two threads, one here and the other on the 993 forum 993 NA to 3.8 TT conversion help! I saw your reply on that thread.
Yes, there is that silver lining, but my friend would rather have the car back, as I know you understand.
Thank you all for your advice.
Greg A
I think you changed the topic title - and my comments got blasted away - weird.
Here is what I wrote
--------------
Yes, facts are important since their is always two sides to each story - sometimes though one side's story in this case seems pretty crappy.
What exactly is being done, a 3.8 rebuild? With the proper parts in place, that is not much more work than a normal rebuild - even if other things are being done, 2 years is way way way over the top. It should take a few months tops for a pro shop.
Your friend needs to talk to the owner of the shop, and give them clear deadlines and the consequences of missing a deadline in a written document. He does not have to be an ****ole, but be firm, and if something is missed, take action! Negotiation with them, and get agreement, If they have excuses like "oh, we cannot trust our supplier" then that would be a BIG warning flag and I would pull the car.
One of the deadlines can be for instance that the engine long block is complete, or the engine is in the car - the final deadline, that the car is finished and can be picked up, if missed perhaps the consequence can be that a tow truck is showing up to remove the car, and no payment will be made for any parts, or another might be the lawsuit is launched.
I would hold-back money in this case because TT's can be tricky, and if they screwed up you need a lever. In once case, I had a car in the shop, 50 miles on a full "performance" rebuild on a TT, and one piston had a 25% leakdown - and the bill had been paid. I could not believe the mechanic was trying to convince me that it was "carbon" under the valve seat then the engine had 50 miles on it. Make sure there is a lever of some kind.
If not clear deadlines and possible financial penalties are put to them in writing the agreement is all verbal and always subject to interpretations. Both parties sign the document, this is key since they will then consider it serious and read the thing. If they don't want to sign, then I would remove the car, they are not being serious.
You have a few levers : One is money- no work done, no pay. The second is reputation: You will detail out the details of the work to be done and post them here on Rennlist. If they meet the dates, hurrah and they have recovered their reputation, if they miss, they are sunk.
I am not sure if its gone that serious yet, but come on, losing a car for two years is totally nuts. Even I am not that slow!
Cheers,
Mike
Here is what I wrote
--------------
Yes, facts are important since their is always two sides to each story - sometimes though one side's story in this case seems pretty crappy.
What exactly is being done, a 3.8 rebuild? With the proper parts in place, that is not much more work than a normal rebuild - even if other things are being done, 2 years is way way way over the top. It should take a few months tops for a pro shop.
Your friend needs to talk to the owner of the shop, and give them clear deadlines and the consequences of missing a deadline in a written document. He does not have to be an ****ole, but be firm, and if something is missed, take action! Negotiation with them, and get agreement, If they have excuses like "oh, we cannot trust our supplier" then that would be a BIG warning flag and I would pull the car.
One of the deadlines can be for instance that the engine long block is complete, or the engine is in the car - the final deadline, that the car is finished and can be picked up, if missed perhaps the consequence can be that a tow truck is showing up to remove the car, and no payment will be made for any parts, or another might be the lawsuit is launched.
I would hold-back money in this case because TT's can be tricky, and if they screwed up you need a lever. In once case, I had a car in the shop, 50 miles on a full "performance" rebuild on a TT, and one piston had a 25% leakdown - and the bill had been paid. I could not believe the mechanic was trying to convince me that it was "carbon" under the valve seat then the engine had 50 miles on it. Make sure there is a lever of some kind.
If not clear deadlines and possible financial penalties are put to them in writing the agreement is all verbal and always subject to interpretations. Both parties sign the document, this is key since they will then consider it serious and read the thing. If they don't want to sign, then I would remove the car, they are not being serious.
You have a few levers : One is money- no work done, no pay. The second is reputation: You will detail out the details of the work to be done and post them here on Rennlist. If they meet the dates, hurrah and they have recovered their reputation, if they miss, they are sunk.
I am not sure if its gone that serious yet, but come on, losing a car for two years is totally nuts. Even I am not that slow!
Cheers,
Mike
Thank you all for your advice.
Greg A
08-07-2014, 11:27 PM
#12
Greg A
08-08-2014, 08:20 AM
#13
I am not entirely surprised about the time it takes for such a big project.
Looking at my case (TT engine in a 964T) if I take as a starting date the day I purchased the engine I am almost 1,5 year into the project and she is still not running perfect. Still have to fix issues.
These projects take a lot of time, it all adds up. Waiting for delivery of the parts, refurbishing, installing, adjusting, problem solving, waiting for new parts, manufacturing custom parts since there is no off the shelf solution available, testing, dynoing, etc.. Time flies and your mechanic also has to run other projects/customers.
98% done... I know the feeling !
Unless you want to do it in a very structured way like Mike is suggesting it comes down to trust, knowing the shop/people who do the work for you and doing regular follow up and visits, keeping up on what the issues are and being involved somehow in problem solving so you know what is going on. Also giving the right signals, i.e. when you feel it's to much/takes to long.
Looking at my case (TT engine in a 964T) if I take as a starting date the day I purchased the engine I am almost 1,5 year into the project and she is still not running perfect. Still have to fix issues.
These projects take a lot of time, it all adds up. Waiting for delivery of the parts, refurbishing, installing, adjusting, problem solving, waiting for new parts, manufacturing custom parts since there is no off the shelf solution available, testing, dynoing, etc.. Time flies and your mechanic also has to run other projects/customers.
98% done... I know the feeling !
Unless you want to do it in a very structured way like Mike is suggesting it comes down to trust, knowing the shop/people who do the work for you and doing regular follow up and visits, keeping up on what the issues are and being involved somehow in problem solving so you know what is going on. Also giving the right signals, i.e. when you feel it's to much/takes to long.
08-08-2014, 09:44 AM
#15
Rennlist Member
Hmmm my car just came back after 1 year at a shop. I was told that 2-3 months and my car would be done.....now with that said I made the choice to take it to a Porsche Race Shop. They are highly skilled and knowledgable in racing and upgrading Porsche's. I knew that they kept a heavy racing season and that my car was not priority. In the end the car turned out great and I made some new friends.
Questions
Did your friend take it to a shop that deals mainly in Race cars or street cars?
Has your friend paid some of the bill or is he waiting until the car is finished to pay for the work? Reason I ask, if the shop is footing the bill upfront, they may be using other customers payment to pay for any parts or work done on your friends car.
Has the shop been ordering parts or has you friend been ordering parts?
Has your friend made any changes along the way that has resulted in delaying his car?
I ask these questions because sometimes we forget that we have had some fault to.
At this point your friend should sit with the owner and discuss delays and finalized a completed date. Emails sometime get lost in the junk file...the only way to handle this is in person with a pen and paper in hand.
I wish him luck..in the end, hopefully both parties will walk away happy.
Questions
Did your friend take it to a shop that deals mainly in Race cars or street cars?
Has your friend paid some of the bill or is he waiting until the car is finished to pay for the work? Reason I ask, if the shop is footing the bill upfront, they may be using other customers payment to pay for any parts or work done on your friends car.
Has the shop been ordering parts or has you friend been ordering parts?
Has your friend made any changes along the way that has resulted in delaying his car?
I ask these questions because sometimes we forget that we have had some fault to.
At this point your friend should sit with the owner and discuss delays and finalized a completed date. Emails sometime get lost in the junk file...the only way to handle this is in person with a pen and paper in hand.
I wish him luck..in the end, hopefully both parties will walk away happy.