Worth It To Tune a 3.4L Engine?
05-14-2021, 02:44 PM
#31
Three Wheelin'
Jake I do admire you.
Good. He isn't supposed to like me. The fact that he doesn't means that I'm still winning (without even trying). I don't have to say things like that about other people, because I don't give a damn what they are doing, and I am concerned with my program, and making it the best it can be. The World would be a much better place if the other clowns did the same thing.
Last time I checked my work, and developments weren't a popularity contest, and I'm not here to make friends.
That said I stopped recommending that owners tuned the cable throttle cars because too many issues with "bricked" ECUs that occurred when doing the tricks required to alter the 5.2 DMEs. We had to develop combinations that were within the limitations of factory tunes to avoid tuning requirements. Doing this was easy, since we've been working with these cars since before anyone could "tune" them. I make 285-310HP at the rear wheels with a 99C2 with stock tune all the time. Some are less, some are more based on the combination, and where the car will live.
Now I'll address this:
The reason for this is simple. That's about the time that bore scoring became so prevalent that we ran out of time to do anything other than build larger engines, due to failures. Its been at least 56 years since we had a stock displacement engine come here for modifications, because we had to switch 100% of the focus to the engine building program.
We used to do a lot of those "mods" while we had the cars for preventative measures, like IMS Retrofits. We also had to stop doing that work, because of the focus being on nothing but the engine program.
Today if I were going to do ANY performance mods to a stock displacement engine I would pre- qualify it just like I would for an IMSR procedure. Why? Because if not, a failure could happen and be blamed on the mods, even if the issue was pre- existing.
Last time I checked my work, and developments weren't a popularity contest, and I'm not here to make friends.
That said I stopped recommending that owners tuned the cable throttle cars because too many issues with "bricked" ECUs that occurred when doing the tricks required to alter the 5.2 DMEs. We had to develop combinations that were within the limitations of factory tunes to avoid tuning requirements. Doing this was easy, since we've been working with these cars since before anyone could "tune" them. I make 285-310HP at the rear wheels with a 99C2 with stock tune all the time. Some are less, some are more based on the combination, and where the car will live.
Now I'll address this:
The reason for this is simple. That's about the time that bore scoring became so prevalent that we ran out of time to do anything other than build larger engines, due to failures. Its been at least 56 years since we had a stock displacement engine come here for modifications, because we had to switch 100% of the focus to the engine building program.
We used to do a lot of those "mods" while we had the cars for preventative measures, like IMS Retrofits. We also had to stop doing that work, because of the focus being on nothing but the engine program.
Today if I were going to do ANY performance mods to a stock displacement engine I would pre- qualify it just like I would for an IMSR procedure. Why? Because if not, a failure could happen and be blamed on the mods, even if the issue was pre- existing.
05-14-2021, 03:05 PM
#32
Former Vendor
I think you are admirable, but you have also developed a negative followship.
In the Miami event mami signs f Jake
By all means, if they are going to talk badly about someone, I hope that it's me.
05-15-2021, 10:02 AM
#33
Rennlist Member
Easy now boys like with any business research and past people experience should help you decide your choice of builders/service my research on flat6 has been very positive but there are others with almost as high regards
my money will be with jack when the time comes I feel his level performance far exceeded most others
but no one or no machine is beyond unstoppable
speed cost money how fast do you want to go
Mike
my money will be with jack when the time comes I feel his level performance far exceeded most others
but no one or no machine is beyond unstoppable
speed cost money how fast do you want to go
Mike
05-16-2021, 12:54 PM
#34
Rennlist Member
On topic: tune the 3.4L as you wish, but reassess what was done in the past to see if it conflicts with now knowns about the engine and plan accordingly. i.e. bricking the controller...
Off topic: If you're in the league playing the game, you are always gunning for the 1st place guy. That's what these comments are. How many people here have been on a first place team? How many have had to deal with the spread of misinformation and jealous digs as a result? Almost every 1st place team is accused of cheating at some point to justify why we are not as good as them, drives me crazy. Just figure out how to do better than them and go! Data, observations, plans, fixes, results and smiles from results: Let's talk about these things...
Off topic: If you're in the league playing the game, you are always gunning for the 1st place guy. That's what these comments are. How many people here have been on a first place team? How many have had to deal with the spread of misinformation and jealous digs as a result? Almost every 1st place team is accused of cheating at some point to justify why we are not as good as them, drives me crazy. Just figure out how to do better than them and go! Data, observations, plans, fixes, results and smiles from results: Let's talk about these things...
05-16-2021, 01:08 PM
#35
Three Wheelin'
I just want to drive the car.
On topic: tune the 3.4L as you wish, but reassess what was done in the past to see if it conflicts with now knowns about the engine and plan accordingly. i.e. bricking the controller...
Off topic: If you're in the league playing the game, you are always gunning for the 1st place guy. That's what these comments are. How many people here have been on a first place team? How many have had to deal with the spread of misinformation and jealous digs as a result? Almost every 1st place team is accused of cheating at some point to justify why we are not as good as them, drives me crazy. Just figure out how to do better than them and go! Data, observations, plans, fixes, results and smiles from results: Let's talk about these things...
Off topic: If you're in the league playing the game, you are always gunning for the 1st place guy. That's what these comments are. How many people here have been on a first place team? How many have had to deal with the spread of misinformation and jealous digs as a result? Almost every 1st place team is accused of cheating at some point to justify why we are not as good as them, drives me crazy. Just figure out how to do better than them and go! Data, observations, plans, fixes, results and smiles from results: Let's talk about these things...
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EVOMMM (05-16-2021)
05-17-2021, 12:03 AM
#36
Former Vendor
Just figure out how to do better than them and go!
A few years ago I stopped reading magazine, and articles, then I stopped watching YouTube videos. I've got a stack of magazines that have never been opened.
05-17-2021, 08:43 AM
#37
Rennlist Member
on a personal basis I just want to drive the car. I’m not tracking it or abusing it I shift most at 6,500. I already had my fast and the furious days. It’s almost like my mid life crisis, my day car is a 2019 F150 super crew. Fixing to spend $150 on brunch with the wife at a 3 star restaurant, there are other things in life.
Anyway back to tuning. I now understand Jakes logic of he has bigger fish to fry so why spend time on a low margin product that won’t sell in volume. I get that. So what is left on the market, IPD makes a plenum and from the hundreds of dynos I have seen that seems to be a pretty solid 5-10hp depending on things. 200cel cats either with or without the x pipe seem to yield good numbers. The BMC drop in filter is the way to go in the air box. So that just leaves tuning. Softronic seems to the be the tune that has been around the longest and most respected. My question is when you put all that together what does it yield? I suspect about 35-40hp? Can someone confirm or deny that? As for cost, that all adds up to about $3500 give or take a bit depending on where you get the products. If you are like me you pick a project a year and spend some money on it so it is more about tinkering than the money. Thoughts?
05-17-2021, 10:13 AM
#38
Three Wheelin'
Tasteful mods
I think a lot some of us are missing what has happened to the 996 in the past 5 years. It is no longer a daily driver to most owners. At 20 years old the majority of 996s are now a toy somewhere only taken out on nice days to go to Cars and Coffee or a club cruise. My car only gets 2K miles a year at the most. So if the mods I do to it blow up the motor in 20K miles then that is 10 or more years from now. Not to mention I don’t track it, never bounce the tach off the redline, and change the oil every spring which is 2K miles. Heck my oil came out so clean this year I debated saving it and using it to top off the my other cars.
Anyway back to tuning. I now understand Jakes logic of he has bigger fish to fry so why spend time on a low margin product that won’t sell in volume. I get that. So what is left on the market, IPD makes a plenum and from the hundreds of dynos I have seen that seems to be a pretty solid 5-10hp depending on things. 200cel cats either with or without the x pipe seem to yield good numbers. The BMC drop in filter is the way to go in the air box. So that just leaves tuning. Softronic seems to the be the tune that has been around the longest and most respected. My question is when you put all that together what does it yield? I suspect about 35-40hp? Can someone confirm or deny that? As for cost, that all adds up to about $3500 give or take a bit depending on where you get the products. If you are like me you pick a project a year and spend some money on it so it is more about tinkering than the money. Thoughts?
Anyway back to tuning. I now understand Jakes logic of he has bigger fish to fry so why spend time on a low margin product that won’t sell in volume. I get that. So what is left on the market, IPD makes a plenum and from the hundreds of dynos I have seen that seems to be a pretty solid 5-10hp depending on things. 200cel cats either with or without the x pipe seem to yield good numbers. The BMC drop in filter is the way to go in the air box. So that just leaves tuning. Softronic seems to the be the tune that has been around the longest and most respected. My question is when you put all that together what does it yield? I suspect about 35-40hp? Can someone confirm or deny that? As for cost, that all adds up to about $3500 give or take a bit depending on where you get the products. If you are like me you pick a project a year and spend some money on it so it is more about tinkering than the money. Thoughts?
a week, yes pcar get togethers. Cars and coffee , sometimes brunch with the wife. I got Kn panel super clean and I cleaned everything on the fuel delivery system, I got fab speed headers and exhaust with hr springs, konis, rss motor mounts, all courtesy of previous owners. Since my car is a cable car, most shops that prepare race cars including vision told me the ipd would be the last thing they would do. I did spoke with GIAC and the tune is $750 to $800, hp gains are said to be
10-12. I don’t know if my car has been tune or not but I can tell you with the tell tell I consistently hit 60 in 4.9. I got a 25,000 mile clutch so if I want to I can launch real hard , also lsd. On the exhaust part the cats are factory what I would like to do once the car gets to 25 years old is to cut those pipes open basically take everything out and weld them back together so they look stock but they are not. Don’t know about you guys but I’m not going to spend the $800 if the car has not been tuned.
05-17-2021, 10:28 AM
#39
Race Car
If I was going to aim to try to add meaningful power to an M96 without taking the heads off, here’s what I would do...
Standalone ECU
Individual throttle bodies
E85 Fuel
Lightest FW and clutch I could get away with
Big open headers
Keep in mind - I know Nothing !
Standalone ECU
Individual throttle bodies
E85 Fuel
Lightest FW and clutch I could get away with
Big open headers
Keep in mind - I know Nothing !
05-17-2021, 10:58 AM
#40
Three Wheelin'
Begin with the end in mind.
hours but reliability is a most. Anyway read up on Vision Motorsports where they have entered under power test cars and won their class due to reliability. Also Jake always talks about his cars don’t having the highest dyno numbers but being extremely reliable. In my previous life I had sponsorship money available for 42 countries, I seen a lot of racing, engine builds and Motorsports in general. The best race I saw in my life was this guy in the Dominican Republic running Honda vtecs, the category controlled everything including trottle size, engine displacement, fuel was the same you could add whatever additive you wanted, anyway this was 2001. He did not qualify on Friday due to business commitments but on Sunday he started 24, and passed everyone on on a 25 lap race that is driving. That race was basically the equivalent of IROC racing. Yes you could use whatever oils and fluids you wanted plus tires. Brakes and spring rates where controlled by category, remember NASCAR win on Sunday. Sell on Monday.
05-17-2021, 11:05 AM
#41
Race Car
Not a big deal - fuel system needs to be upgraded to handle but... that’s whatever. Pump, lines, injectors...
Why don’t you take a stroll to the turbo forums and see if any of those guys running E85... this is nothing new.
OP was talking about a race car BTW
Why don’t you take a stroll to the turbo forums and see if any of those guys running E85... this is nothing new.
OP was talking about a race car BTW
05-17-2021, 11:20 AM
#42
Three Wheelin'
I understand E-85
I understand all the changes that have to be done. One of my friends has a lambo aventador sv (217 mph top speed) and he is obsessed about having the fastest hell cat, 1,200 hp. He buys it by the drums, has not been able to get the right tune yet. That’s a huge difference fro a daily driver.
07-05-2021, 01:56 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
As promised earlier in this thread, here is a before and after dyno on a custom tune.
You can see from the before graph results that the addition of the Schrick sport cams did no favors to the HP and torque line at higher
rpm with the existing Giac tune the car already had.
The DME seemed unable to adjust to this hardward change it and the result was a severe drop off from around 5700 to 6300rpm where both torque and hp start
to pick up again.
On the track, this was a very noticeable and negative result.
With the custom program from RSP Motorsports and performed in conjunction with being strapped on the dyno at the same time, they were able to
smooth out and increase both torque and hp.
It has a very strong and uninterrupted acceleration now to 7500rpm and if only i could rev it higher without fear of blowing up, it think it would keep pulling easily to 8k.
You can see from the before graph results that the addition of the Schrick sport cams did no favors to the HP and torque line at higher
rpm with the existing Giac tune the car already had.
The DME seemed unable to adjust to this hardward change it and the result was a severe drop off from around 5700 to 6300rpm where both torque and hp start
to pick up again.
On the track, this was a very noticeable and negative result.
With the custom program from RSP Motorsports and performed in conjunction with being strapped on the dyno at the same time, they were able to
smooth out and increase both torque and hp.
It has a very strong and uninterrupted acceleration now to 7500rpm and if only i could rev it higher without fear of blowing up, it think it would keep pulling easily to 8k.