GC996

I bet a good number of Porsche Indies rebuild engines. Doubt they develop any parts for the M96. Instead, most source a good number of parts including blocks and IMSBs from LN. All you have to do is go to the PCA club races at the big tracks and you can ask. These same indies run caravans of customer cars to and from the club races and set up customer tents for pit support. Everyone is happy to talk shop. You can find out more over a race weekend than you can in 5 years on RL.

BRS-LN

Those are assemblers. Not builders.

Generally they bolt engines together without dynamic balancing, and without measuring/ setting clearances. We have tried to educate these types of shops about the importance of taking additional time with engines, but most are too busy for business. They are much better at vehicle preparation than engine building.
It works for some, and it doesn't for others.

GC996

My point exactly.

plpete84

I'm not sure what's your point or goal here and why you refuse to acknowledge that there are places other than FSI/LN that are more than capable of building high performance engines. Sure, maybe they haven't developed a new IMS bearing, fancy carbon intake or whatever else you've been cooking up - that's not their business model. Just because they don't post on rennlist daily and write lengthy paragraphs defending their shop and touting their superiority over literally everyone else in the industry doesn't mean they are not putting in quality work. They just don't shout about it at every opportunity. With your logic, those "assemblers" should have hundreds, if not more, of cars blowing up at the track with all those unbalanced blocks of aluminum with clearances as wide as daylight. Let's not forget that you CAN kill an FSI motor with ****ty maintenance so the owner is just as responsible here. For heaven's sake, have some respect for yourself and others in your industry. They are the very people that are supporting YOUR business by purchasing your parts in many cases. I'm not saying there aren't **** shops out there but your statements tend to throw a pretty wide net covering everyone. /rant

BRS-LN

Assemblers and builders are different in every portion of the automotive industry. In the domestic world you have general shops assembling engines from pieces that they buy and they attain marginal results compared to those like Kaase that develop components and build engines with them at a different level.
If any shop has more equipment for working on cars than engines, they are not engine builders. If a tire machine and alignment rack are more important than an engine balancer, flow bench, or milling machine, the focus they have is apparent. Many of the "rebuilt" engines that do fail succumb to things that were overlooked because the builder wasn't a builder, he was an assembler. He was never taught to assume nothing and to quantify everything. In some cases they believe that plastic-gage and a vernier caliper are precision measuring tools. This is because they are assemblers, and not builders. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the purchaser understands the differences between the results they are purchasing. In the Porsche world so far I have not seen this, as buyers routinely seem to think that you can just buy everything and bolt it together, expecting it to work. In the last TKG class that I attended as an observer no professional in attendance knew how to properly measure bearing clearances. Not a single person knew how to properly measure and set piston ring tensions, and no one knew what cylinder surface finish was. At the end of the class they did, but the scary part was how many of them had been building engines without knowing these things.

That being said, wide clearances aren't the issue, clearances being too tight and at different axes of measurement is the issue. As "technicians" get less mechanical in their roles and day to day work with vehicles, we are seeing further degradation in the understanding of how engines truly operate at the general workshop level. This will continue.

jandackson

@BRS-LN I have a question:
Since you sell parts to the hobbyists that build their own engines, how are they supposed to adjust bearing clearances if those numbers aren’t even published?

plpete84

blah blah blah you have endless anecdotal examples to support your "we best, everyone else sucks" essays. Pretty sure I'm talking to a ChatGPT robot optimized for rennlist forums. I'm done here.

BRS-LN

These figures are in the process of being published, for this very reason.

Houtx996

its interesting that you think a set of calipers and a scale makes someone an engineer or engine builder. Reality check...If you have to start with someone's else's core it's an assembly, it's just bolting on internal parts, cracking a case and measuring someone else's creation is nothing special.

For all the cool stuff LN does, their PR department is gross.

BRS-LN

Quite the opposite, those things are what engine assemblers believe are adequate.
I've certainly assisted in taking this one far off topic, so I apologize.

jandackson

@BRS-LN follow up question: what if I am building my motor now? Or, put another way, why did all the guys do to properly assemble your parts clearances in the past?

EVOMMM

Again with all this sand kicking
first if L&N or any other firm goes through the trouble of making/ gathering intel on an item they sell to the public why do they have to give it to you for free???
secondly does every carmaker publish motor specs and tolerances to the public
if you don’t like what they sell don’t buy it

DBJoe996

I have nothing to add

jandackson

Look, I’m just trying to assemble a motor with @BRS-LN parts. And I would rather only do it once. Since they sold me the parts I’m only looking for some guidance. Sounds like I need to wait for the book.

Or, I forge ahead and “assume” the bearing clearances are correct on the main and rods. A lot of these motors have been built by enthusiasts without these clearances known (how do you adjust the clearance if you cannot buy different bearings or machine the crank?).

BRS-LN

If you need a particular clearance, I am sure we can help you with this. The first step is to measure the clearances that you have in different axes and see if you lack the minimum clearance based on the old .001" per 1" of journal diameter rule in any of the axes that are measured.
Clearances are adjusted by different methods, generally the crank carrier requires line- honing if the measurements are not adequate. They are almost always too tight if adjustments need to be made. In other cases the crankshaft is polished, and in other cases the big end of the rod is slightly opened. All of this is honestly better suited in another thread, since a factory short block gives you whatever clearances that the factory gives you, and that's what the topic of this thread is.. Sorry for the continued infiltration.