When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Cam tools, yes, but a vastly simplified procedure vs the air cooled six. No main or rod bearing clearance or endplay checks, or torques. No ring filing. No piston circlip insertion tool or procedure. It seems most of the voodoo lies within the bottom end of these engines. I have no doubt the videos are a fine product and worth every penny if you need them. If you don’t then it’s over $600 that could be spent elsewhere.
What experience do you have building these engines that makes you knowledgable enough to compare the M96 to classic aircooled flat 6 engines? Please explain.
And, please tell us what "simplified procedure" you're referring to.
Originally Posted by TT Oversteer
Just out of curiousity while at the dealership, I asked the parts guy if factory M96 short blocks were still available. The answer was yes for just over $10k with a $4k core deposit and could be available in 4-6 weeks. Then I asked if it came with the newer, larger IMS bearing that requires case machining to retrofit. He did not have an answer for the IMS question. I know that a factory short block doesn’t solve the lokasil bore scoring issue but the prospect of a factory assembled short block would be tempting for the price if IMS retrofit was not required. The time savings alone has significant value. I would not, however want to buy one and replace the IMS bearing although I might take a chance on the lokasil bores if I had control of the maintenance the engine would receive going forward from new. Does anyone know what IMS bearing these factory engines come with? Has anyone here purchased one?
This is my criticism when going with the short block route. That is, you're basically putting the same engine that is subject to bore scoring back in the car. The same problem that got you there in the first place.
When I bought my first Porsche 996 years ago, my window regulator went bad. Everyone told me to NOT purchase a used or aftermarket part because they were well known to failure. The genuine Porsche part cost hundreds of dollar more and I thought it was ridiculous to spend that kind of money when alternatives could be purchased for a fraction of the OEM part. I cut corners and purchased the aftermarket part for under a $100. Took a whole day to install the part. The aftermarket regulator lasted about 2 months and it broke. Lesson learned. Same thing goes for other parts like the coolant expansion tank.
Porsche has a proven cylinder technology in the 996 Mezger Turbo and GT models that doesn't suffer from bore scoring; that is, Nikasil plated cylinders. There are other contributors to the problem that are solved when going with companies like Flat 6 Innovations. But that's being debated on another thread.
I'm just going to post this every time someone questions the M96 reliability:
Are you going to have various issues if the original owner followed these guidelines? You bet! It's been ~20 years and unfortunately you have no control over what already happened. Are there people that did not follow these guidelines and changed the oil much more often and have upwards of 500k street miles (911user) on their original motor or many track miles/hours (GC996) with zero motor issues and no signs of scoring? Yes sir! I'm not saying that the original lokasil bores are as good as nikasil (they're not) ones but if you can reset the clock and not make the mistakes the original owner or two made then a new factory short block is a very good option that can clearly go the distance, especially for those that love the car but are not in a position to spend ~40k to fix the motor.
What experience do you have building these engines that makes you knowledgable enough to compare the M96 to classic aircooled flat 6 engines? Please explain.
I have no experience building an M96. That’s why I’m asking questions and reading this forum. I have a lot of experience building other engines including air cooled 911 sixes. I find it amusing that some people consider working on the M96 a black art and the techniques a closely guarded secret known only by the anointed few, or those who buy DVD box sets.
And, please tell us what "simplified procedure" you're referring to.
The M96 cam timing is indexed by the manufacturer by slots in the camshafts. Set TDC with a pin. Line up the cam slots with the tool. Tighten the cam sprocket bolts.
Air cooled cam timing is done with a dial indicator by measuring number one intake valve opening. The cam sprockets are indexed by inserting a pin then tightening the cam sprocket nut. Things move when the nut is torqued. Adjustment is infinite. There are different timing settings depending on how you want the engine to run. It’s tricky to get right.
Think of it this way: M96 is digital. Air cooled is analog.
This is my criticism when going with the short block route. That is, you're basically putting the same engine that is subject to bore scoring back in the car. The same problem that got you there in the first place.
That’s the issue, isn’t it? Although many will say bore scoring is the result of poor oils, lack of maintenance, cold weather operating environments, bad fuel injectors and other factors. It seems many 996 owners have gotten as much as 200k miles out of their lokasil bores with proper maintenance.
Porsche has a proven cylinder technology in the 996 Mezger Turbo and GT models that doesn't suffer from bore scoring; that is, Nikasil plated cylinders. There are other contributors to the problem that are solved when going with companies like Flat 6 Innovations. But that's being debated on another thread.
Yeah, I wish Porsche would’ve used Nikasil bores on the M96 like they did on my 996 Turbo and my ‘88 3.2 Carrera. But then used 996’s wouldn’t be cheaply available on the used market would they?
Yeah, I wish Porsche would’ve used Nikasil bores on the M96 like they did on my 996 Turbo and my ‘88 3.2 Carrera. But then used 996’s wouldn’t be cheaply available on the used market would they?
I have a dealership in the family which grants me access to Manheim Auctions, which as you may know, is the largest wholesale auction company and by far, used by dealerships more than any other source. Some here on Rennlist will use BringATrailer, and Hagerty auction data to justify the value of the M9X based Porsche, but from viewing Manheim, it's a sad day for 986 Boxster owners and the 987 is not very far behind. Lots of people are dumping these cars on the market now that things are getting much better since the Pandemic. The 996 is still doing ok, but there are quite of few being dumped on the auctions as people trade-in these cars for something newer. As I'm typing this, there are about 80 Porsche 996 cars that have been sent to auction by the dealerships. Last year this time there was virtually nothing which caused a spike in prices. However, now that supply is increasing, then prices should drop. As a side note, among the 80 Porsche 996 cars, there are quite a number for under $20,000 as a direct sale. (i.e. if you didn't want to gamble and try to win at bidding)
But I am still long term bullish in the 996. Alot of car for a good price.
Cool! If you expand that to a two-year window (see attached), then what I was saying in regards to value is correct. Since Sep 2022, it has been a downward slide. I'm afraid, for the 986 Boxster, it's a cliff. haha
If Porsche can get new 911 production levels back up, then the value will be better for the average buyer wanting to purchase a M9X 911.
Cool! If you expand that to a two-year window (see attached), then what I was saying in regards to value is correct. Since Sep 2022, it has been a downward slide. I'm afraid, for the 986 Boxster, it's a cliff. haha
If Porsche can get new 911 production levels back up, then the value will be better for the average buyer wanting to purchase a M9X 911.
I hear you. The biggest collapse will come from over priced 992 and 991s. If you had to set up a trade it would be to go long a basket of 996s and short a basket of 992s and 991s.
Disclaimer: Past performance is not indicative of future returns. This information is provided for illustrative purposes only. Seek professional advice when speculating on car prices. Make sure to scope the bores before taking on any long positions. 😎
The M96 cam timing is indexed by the manufacturer by slots in the camshafts. Set TDC with a pin. Line up the cam slots with the tool. Tighten the cam sprocket bolts.
I'm afraid timing these engines is not that "simple" as you just explained it and we haven't even gotten into the differences between the 5-chain vs. 3-chain M96 yet.
Originally Posted by TT Oversteer
Air cooled cam timing is done with a dial indicator by measuring number one intake valve opening. The cam sprockets are indexed by inserting a pin then tightening the cam sprocket nut. Things move when the nut is torqued. Adjustment is infinite. There are different timing settings depending on how you want the engine to run. It’s tricky to get right.
The M96 timing procedure can be "tricky" as well based on what I've witnessed over the years. I don't think an aircooled engine has the market cornered.
Originally Posted by TT Oversteer
Think of it this way: M96 is digital. Air cooled is analog.
Now this is where you confused me. You clearly stated you've NEVER built an M96 engine, but yet you come on this thread trying "teach" us the differences between the M96 engine and older aircooled flat 6 engines. You seem to brush off the M96 timing procedure as something that could be done by a 5th grader while also implying that Jake Raby's M9X engine assembly educational series is basically a waste of money that could be spent elsewhere and at the same time you're asking for information about the LN/Flat 6 Innovations engine program? Sounds to me you're attempting to throw the baby out with the bath water.
If you know so much about these engines that you've never built then you really don't need our advice. We just need to know your real intentions, Bill.
I got a new short block when doing my build, and we bored out to 3.8 from 3.4. Mind you, I purchased my block in Jan 2020 right before all the nonsense started, but I'm glad I did it. Price is basically what I paid 3 years ago.
The M96 timing procedure can be "tricky" as well based on what I've witnessed over the years. I don't think an aircooled engine has the market cornered.
.
I disagree with most of your comments.
A novice mechanic that can read a Bentley book and spend an hour searching the internet can time a 5 chain. Its $150 worth of special tool and being careful....thats it. There is no reason to buy $700 worth of videos.
Putting heads on a short block is also infinately easier then building an entire m96 engine and yes, before u ask, i have been intimate with the 5 chain motor.
^^^I too have "timed" a 5 chain motor (and I'm certainly no master mechanic...) I just had to figure out that the Chinese $150 timing tool I bought was assembled backwards, and I had to fix it before it worked...In any case, it's not that difficult if you can read and follow directions. All this being said, there is a ton covered in the FSI videos beyond timing the engine so Im not sure what the knock on those is about... $600 when building a $15k engine is not a lot to pay for knowledge/peace of mind, whether it's essential to time the motor is debatable I suppose...
A novice mechanic that can read a Bentley book and spend an hour searching the internet can time a 5 chain. Its $150 worth of special tool and being careful....thats it. There is no reason to buy $700 worth of videos.
Putting heads on a short block is also infinately easier then building an entire m96 engine and yes, before u ask, i have been intimate with the 5 chain motor.
Could those people "time the engine" or "correctly time the engine"? What would their cam deviations be? Would they specifically be instructed to identify where the proper components are to be installed on bank 1 and bank 2? Would they be shown how to inspect the cam adjusters for proper operation prior to installation?
Too many people follow manuals and install the wrong components on the wrong bank, or they completely leave out engine rotation between timing banks 1 and 2 because the manuals leave out this process.
When Nick at Bentley was writing this section, it was Mr. Raby that assisted him with deciphering the faults that lie in the factory manual, that would have easily been included in the Bentley manual had they not been working together on a separate project at the same time that Nick was finishing the 996 Bentley manual. Hearing the stories about the way these things come to pass are very enlightening. The same goes for the special tools that were offered early on, that ensured that valve timing would always be incorrect.
The number of people I have assisted at LN who have built these engines, and performed repairs with the video series has been impressive. I never receive a tech support ticket from a guy that has used the videos and made a mistake, but I receive the complaints from guys following manuals all the time. Most of these are related to valve timing and piston installation procedures that are botched. I think the big difference is being able to watch the work being done, hitting pause when necessary, and then moving on to the next step is the big difference. Following a manual isn't that easy for some people, and quite honestly every manual I have studied leaves some level of critical information out/ not clarified.
A novice mechanic that can read a Bentley book and spend an hour searching the internet can time a 5 chain. It's $150 worth of special tool and being careful....thats it.
That fine, if you prefer to purchase a Bently manual at $219,95 and comb the internet, then more power to you.
Originally Posted by De Jeeper
There is no reason to buy $700 worth of videos.
That's your opinion. You're assuming everyone learns the same way and brings the same prerequisite knowledge to a task, but that's not what learner research has found and why so many people need alternate forms of instruction - e.g. step-by-step visual demonstrations, hands-on tasks, etc. Look up multisensory instruction and constructionism learning theories. BTW: You don't have to pay $700. If you're smart you'll wait for sales. LN Engineering ran a 50% off sale of the DVD series back at Black Friday.
Originally Posted by De Jeeper
Putting heads on a short block is also infinately easier then building an entire m96 engine.
Again, your opinion. Maybe I read too many threads on all the forums, but it seems that aside from inserting the dreaded #6 piston circlip, that timing the engine is one of the areas that people struggle with. For example, on Amazon Prime, you have the option to purchase the individual Stages unlike the DVD series that is sold a complete package. People have ordered just the timing Stage more than any other stage of assembly.
Originally Posted by De Jeeper
and yes, before u ask, i have been intimate with the 5 chain motor.
Please don't show me a video of you making love to machinery.
01-24-2023, 10:07 AM
LN Engineering ran a 50% off sale of the DVD series back at Black Friday.
