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with the amount of money these FSI build cost, you can be 2billion% sure if something went wrong some mens will complain about it...i have zero complaints about my FSI build or the process involved...my only regret is i didn't go 4.3L instead of 4.0L because i thought it would be "enough" sadly...
And just when you think you are happy with your FSI engine, you put an X-pipe on it, and you become ecstatic!
@TT Oversteer , what are you trying to get out of this trolling? Are you trying to assemble a list of the next generation of problems so that you can get a head start on fixing them? Are you trying to figure out a lower cost option to FSI(given your other thread about the short block) that might claim to be as good? Maybe if you ask directly, you will get a better response as to what people think rather than inferring what people think by the wording in their accolades to FSI.
I’m not sure what you mean by “trolling”. I’m simply posing a question to those who have used FSI and LN products and services what their experience has been. It’s clearly overwhelmingly positive as evidenced by every single response so far. I asked how many users have experience taking FSI/LN products to the 100k+ mileage point. Is that not a direct question?
I am a longtime Porsche enthusiast and I believe in the brand and it’s successful design, engineering and racing history. I have several 911 hobby cars and two Cayennes that I use for towing and driving in snow. I wanted to replace my worn out 265k mile BMW e46 commuter with a relatively inexpensive, economical fun daily driver. Enter the 996 Tiptronic Carrera. I was aware of the issues that plague the M96 but decided to take a chance on one because I believe a lot of internet tales of woe are exaggerated.
Now that I own the 996 and I am becoming familiar with it the picture is coming more into focus. Is appears most of the owners here on RL use their cars as toys or treat them as projects to be improved upon. I’m trying to understand why someone would buy a $20k car and put a $30k engine in it only to end up with a $25-30k car. Now I know the answer: it’s LOVE. You guys love your 996’s. I get it. If you plan to keep your car long term and want to enjoy it worry-free while improving it then more power to you.
My situation is a little different. I have other hobby/project cars that I have invested in heavily. The 996 isn’t that for me. I want a 911 I can drive daily, park outside at work or the Mall, put my dog in, loan to my kids or friends, all without worry. I’m not interested in a one year/$20k project. So when my M96 needs replacement (and it will, sooner or later) I’m looking at options.
My intent is never to criticize, only to learn and share information. Enjoy your cars gentlemen, and thanks for engaging in this thread!
I’m not sure what you mean by “trolling”. I’m simply posing a question to those who have used FSI and LN products and services what their experience has been. It’s clearly overwhelmingly positive as evidenced by every single response so far. I asked how many users have experience taking FSI/LN products to the 100k+ mileage point. Is that not a direct question?
I am a longtime Porsche enthusiast and I believe in the brand and it’s successful design, engineering and racing history. I have several 911 hobby cars and two Cayennes that I use for towing and driving in snow. I wanted to replace my worn out 265k mile BMW e46 commuter with a relatively inexpensive, economical fun daily driver. Enter the 996 Tiptronic Carrera. I was aware of the issues that plague the M96 but decided to take a chance on one because I believe a lot of internet tales of woe are exaggerated.
Now that I own the 996 and I am becoming familiar with it the picture is coming more into focus. Is appears most of the owners here on RL use their cars as toys or treat them as projects to be improved upon. I’m trying to understand why someone would buy a $20k car and put a $30k engine in it only to end up with a $25-30k car. Now I know the answer: it’s LOVE. You guys love your 996’s. I get it. If you plan to keep your car long term and want to enjoy it worry-free while improving it then more power to you.
My situation is a little different. I have other hobby/project cars that I have invested in heavily. The 996 isn’t that for me. I want a 911 I can drive daily, park outside at work or the Mall, put my dog in, loan to my kids or friends, all without worry. I’m not interested in a one year/$20k project. So when my M96 needs replacement (and it will, sooner or later) I’m looking at options.
My intent is never to criticize, only to learn and share information. Enjoy your cars gentlemen, and thanks for engaging in this thread!
That is a good distinction. I always ask people what their intentions are for the car. If someone is buying one broken with the intention of flipping it, that's a bad reason to purchase the car. Also, if you aren't interested in keeping the car for the long haul, it likely won't make financial sense either. The majority of people who choose to go the route of building up an M96/M97 engine appreciate the 996 and 997, engine flaws aside, and don't want a newer generation of Porsche. For me personally I have little interest in anything offered by Porsche past the 987.2 or 997.2.
I’m not sure what you mean by “trolling”. I’m simply posing a question to those who have used FSI and LN products and services what their experience has been. It’s clearly overwhelmingly positive as evidenced by every single response so far. I asked how many users have experience taking FSI/LN products to the 100k+ mileage point. Is that not a direct question?
I am a longtime Porsche enthusiast and I believe in the brand and it’s successful design, engineering and racing history. I have several 911 hobby cars and two Cayennes that I use for towing and driving in snow. I wanted to replace my worn out 265k mile BMW e46 commuter with a relatively inexpensive, economical fun daily driver. Enter the 996 Tiptronic Carrera. I was aware of the issues that plague the M96 but decided to take a chance on one because I believe a lot of internet tales of woe are exaggerated.
Now that I own the 996 and I am becoming familiar with it the picture is coming more into focus. Is appears most of the owners here on RL use their cars as toys or treat them as projects to be improved upon. I’m trying to understand why someone would buy a $20k car and put a $30k engine in it only to end up with a $25-30k car. Now I know the answer: it’s LOVE. You guys love your 996’s. I get it. If you plan to keep your car long term and want to enjoy it worry-free while improving it then more power to you.
My situation is a little different. I have other hobby/project cars that I have invested in heavily. The 996 isn’t that for me. I want a 911 I can drive daily, park outside at work or the Mall, put my dog in, loan to my kids or friends, all without worry. I’m not interested in a one year/$20k project. So when my M96 needs replacement (and it will, sooner or later) I’m looking at options.
My intent is never to criticize, only to learn and share information. Enjoy your cars gentlemen, and thanks for engaging in this thread!
Thanks for your note, and I apologize for my tone. I have no excuse. I've seen a lot of these threads turn into pretty ugly discussions about perceived value. They always seem to only discuss this one option. Without a comparison, the discussion can get silly.
That said, There is no reason the 996 cannot do all the things you describe. You just need to find the one that has been driven and maintained in a frequent and consistent way. There are examples here that have several hundred thousand miles. I expect these have been faithfully attended. Mine started out as a weekend car but is now my daily driver. It was never going to be a show car, but I wanted it to be bulletproof. Thanks again.
I've got about 25k mi. on my 3.4 > 3.8 stage II build. I'll probably never get to 100k on the engine, as I just don't drive the car enough at this point (maybe some day though). Though my engine hadn't failed at the the time of my "elective build", it was well on it's way and I was lucky to have the disposable cash to have it fixed/enhanced the way I wanted to. My work situation and the world as a whole has changed immeasurably since then and I wouldn't be able to do it now - I'm so glad I pulled the trigger when I could. The value of having the engine done right, (and the car overall) is far beyond what it ever would have been worth with a stock engine in it. The value to me is priceless
It would seem the consensus is the Raby/Navarro combo is the Gold Standard for M96 engines. I have no experience with either and no reason to doubt their products, services and engineering prowess. I am curious, however; how many have run these engines well past 100k miles and what has been your experience? Much ado has been made about the fragile M96 time bomb with its “service item” IMS bearing and fragile scoring-prone cylinders but my example has done 115k miles with its original IMS bearing and only trace precursor bore scoring. How long will it run before it grenades? Only time will tell…
So when I debate opening my wallet to alleviate the sleepless nights and cold sweats of M96 anxiety I have to ask: “what am I buying?” With my tens of thousands of dollars? By the vendors’ own admission the $800 IMS Retrofit is a 50k mile life limited part. The only real “solution” is the $1,800 IMS Solution. How long do Nickies and J&E pistons last? There’s no such thing as forever when it comes to machines.
So I ask those with experience: How many have run these engines well past 100k and beyond? Are there any known failures of these parts and processes? It’s understood usage and maintenance practices are a huge part of the equation. For those who have progressed past Denial, Acceptance, and Writing the Check, how are you all sleeping at night?
I have had a Flat6 Innovations Track Performer engine in my 996 street/track car for over 6 years d I have had zero problems. The engine only has 15,000 miles on it, but I pretty much drive it to/from track events. I have oil samples done annually and I just had our local FSI technician go through the engine and he said it looked great and needed nothing, but we’ll do the spark plugs since they show the hard track use. I love the engine as the worry I used to have of an IMS failure is now off my mind. The engine loves to rev and it pulls much harder and faster than stock for sure. I’d say a Raby built FSI engine is the gold standard!
Wait till it goes pop if the car is worth it to you then fix it to what you can afford
I have a 99 with 103k when it goes pop I’ll cry
but value before and after is my only factoring
my car is past 101k miles. I don’t track it but I do take it supersonic every single time I drive it. No engine oil consumption to talk about in 6 months oil drain intervals . I do about 2500 miles in 6 months. My plan is the same I’ll buy a rebuild engine when it blows. I believe if you maintain the factory engines properly, operate drive the car as it should, make sure you use the best fuel this original engines can last. In personally seen a few with over 200k miles.
Completely satisfied FSI Stage II 3.8 (cable throttle) owner here. I bought my 02/98 build with the specific intention to send to FSI shortly thereafter to do their process to the block. Like @ochristofferson, I had planned to pull the engine and rebuild, but like him after "Looked at doing a Nickies and rebuild myself but when adding up the cost of components, outside services, special tool rentals, etc. and considering Jake's 1 year warranty and my odds of screwing something up, it was cheaper (total cost) to have FSI do it all." It was a no-brainer...all the upgrades to the block along with someone who knows has learned about and continues to learn the failure points of the M96 while applying philosophy of a former Marine helo mechanic (if you know how critical systems work in a helicopter and the importance of getting it right before the bird lifts, you get it), the cost of the labor was worth much, MUCH more than the time I would take to do it myself and what the goals were/are for my 996.
I understand those who think it is *too expensive* or pursue other avenues. I'm probably the most broke-*** customer Jake has ever had and I don't regret spending the coin to get the rebuild right. As a seasoned mechanic, I appreciate the fastidiousness and pursuit of excellence FSI has applied to their craft. It is mechanical art as much as anything else, and it's like paying for a work...if you get intrinsic value, the price is not an issue. If you know, you know.
if your car is lapis with space grey you have the car I would want as my perfect car. I have seen experienced two bigger engine builts on the cable throttle both of them not by FSI, a 3.6, and a 3.8. Both by same builder. Who also has a one year warranty. Anyway I'll appreciate it if you let me know where you are because I would definitely would like to see, experience this. I’m partial for the 99 because compared to the turbo is small lightweight nimble and mine is not going to get any faster unless I put a bigger engine on it. Yes I can rip the carpet off , remove the sound deadening material etc, to make it lighter but I don’t want to do, I’m pretty sure I’ll get with squirrel and get to see what the 4.0 stage two can do, but that’s a different engine. Thanks Luis in Texas.
I have the same 3.8 Stage II (cable throttle) as jobyt from FSI. I also could not be happier with the whole process. However, I am a long way from Texas.
I wonder how much different the FSI built motors run compared to the home built motors using the same parts?
I am building a 4.0 using, presumably, the same parts as an FSI motor. However, I do not have the benefit of experience so do not know all the little things that go into these motors that sum up to be special. It would be interesting to test an FSI motor compared to a home built.
That said, I don’t really care too much else I would have an FSI motor. To me, part of the joy is assembling the engine myself. I will never know at the tricks and that’s ok.
I wonder how much different the FSI built motors run compared to the home built motors using the same parts?
I am building a 4.0 using, presumably, the same parts as an FSI motor. However, I do not have the benefit of experience so do not know all the little things that go into these motors that sum up to be special. It would be interesting to test an FSI motor compared to a home built.
That said, I don’t really care too much else I would have an FSI motor. To me, part of the joy is assembling the engine myself. I will never know at the tricks and that’s ok.
There are a bunch of differences between an FSI 4.0 engine and a DIY 4.0.
Just because the displacement is the same, and some of the products used, that doesn't mean that FSI is buying the same off the shelf parts.
There are proprietary parts and services that FSI uses.
There are also processes that are more difficult to reproduce. (dynamic balancing to FSI-level being just one)
FSI balances the complete rotating assembly, not just the crankshaft.
I've rebuilt an M96 before.
It can be done, but there are things I could not do to the level of FSI.
At this point, my time was better served paying to have my engine rebuilt by FSI.
I also ended up with a MUCH better engine than if I'd rebuilt it myself.
Last edited by TexSquirrel; 01-27-2023 at 09:28 PM.
I personally have read way too many threads of guys basically destroying their first attempt at a rebuild to even try it myself. Admittedly, many get it right, but dang to get it wrong would be sickening and isn’t something I could worry about. Not to mention I simply don’t have the time. I am better doing what I do well to pay FSI to make sure it is done right.
I wonder how much different the FSI built motors run compared to the home built motors using the same parts?
I am building a 4.0 using, presumably, the same parts as an FSI motor. However, I do not have the benefit of experience so do not know all the little things that go into these motors that sum up to be special. It would be interesting to test an FSI motor compared to a home built.
That said, I don’t really care too much else I would have an FSI motor. To me, part of the joy is assembling the engine myself. I will never know at the tricks and that’s ok.
FSI alters almost every running clearance in the engine to their own specs. This includes connecting rod sizing, crank carrier align hone sizing as well as the bearings that are used. Some FSI engines don't even use Porsche rod bearings. Most parts are cryogenically enhanced. The dynamic assembly is balanced with both rotating and reciprocating components in the mix.
Their cylinders are done on a separate line, and have different surface finishes that match the rings/ ring coatings that are being used. Cylinder heads are one of the biggest differences, as well as the piston specifications in regard to skirt shape and etc. Jake calls out his own specs for most everything, and lots of others are adjusted on site at FSI. Camshaft timing isn't set "straight up" using the standard tools and procedures, and this alone creates an engine that behaves differently.
To get an FSI engine, you must buy an FSI engine. The details that add up to really matter can't be purchased.
All of these items that I mentioned are handled by the assigned builder of each particular engine. Engine building at FSI is not a team effort, once assigned the same builder carries out every step associated with the engine he has been assigned, right down to the balancing.
Not to say that you can't build an engine the same displacement using the standard off the shelf parts. You can do this. These parts are designed to be user friendly, and go together without hiccups or every clearance having to be set. If a DIY builder had the same parts in front of him as an FSI builder has, the engine wouldn't even bolt together properly since FSI wants to set clearances and fit components per engine, not just have things bolt together.
These are the reasons why it takes time to create an FSI engine.
The goal with other main stream parts are just the opposite, we've adjusted clearances on parts that combine with each other so you don't have to measure everything to infinity to attain a satisfactory end result. FSI's experiences have also factored into these combinations heavily, since they share with us what works with each combination without risks.
I was with Jake yesterday while he did the exact same process with a 356 SC engine for Miles Collier. This is what his world looked like while I was there to grab some intake manifold pieces he had just finished flow testing. He had 4 sets of bearings open, searching through combinations of them that would give the desired bearing clearance.
This statement is what I suspected:
”The details that add up to really matter can't be purchased.”
I understand and accept that there is a secret sauce that make FSI engines special. And I do not expect that those secrets will be published. Further, these processes and attention to detail warrant additional cost.
I am happy that the parts sold by @BRS-LN are clearanced and set up to fit together with minimal drama and additional work. That’s why I bought them as I do not want to fool around with all of that stuff. I am content with being “ an assembler” vs “a builder”.
My point is, there are many paths to keeping these cars on the road and each has cost/benefits. I’m not out to be the fastest or highest HP. I am all about having fun with MY car. Part of that is wrenching on it myself, for the challenge, risk and exhilaration of doing it (hopefully successfully).
I have respect for anyone who has ventured down this path before me and for Jake for having the drive and focus to create what he has. This is to all of our benefit.
I also believe competition is good and drives further innovation, like what Porschetec has done with the UAOS.
These cars are pretty cool and fun to wrench on.
Last edited by jandackson; 01-27-2023 at 06:08 PM.
FSI alters almost every running clearance in the engine to their own specs. This includes connecting rod sizing, crank carrier align hone sizing as well as the bearings that are used. Some FSI engines don't even use Porsche rod bearings. Most parts are cryogenically enhanced. The dynamic assembly is balanced with both rotating and reciprocating components in the mix.
Their cylinders are done on a separate line, and have different surface finishes that match the rings/ ring coatings that are being used. Cylinder heads are one of the biggest differences, as well as the piston specifications in regard to skirt shape and etc. Jake calls out his own specs for most everything, and lots of others are adjusted on site at FSI. Camshaft timing isn't set "straight up" using the standard tools and procedures, and this alone creates an engine that behaves differently.
To get an FSI engine, you must buy an FSI engine. The details that add up to really matter can't be purchased.
All of these items that I mentioned are handled by the assigned builder of each particular engine. Engine building at FSI is not a team effort, once assigned the same builder carries out every step associated with the engine he has been assigned, right down to the balancing.
Not to say that you can't build an engine the same displacement using the standard off the shelf parts. You can do this. These parts are designed to be user friendly, and go together without hiccups or every clearance having to be set. If a DIY builder had the same parts in front of him as an FSI builder has, the engine wouldn't even bolt together properly since FSI wants to set clearances and fit components per engine, not just have things bolt together.
These are the reasons why it takes time to create an FSI engine.
The goal with other main stream parts are just the opposite, we've adjusted clearances on parts that combine with each other so you don't have to measure everything to infinity to attain a satisfactory end result. FSI's experiences have also factored into these combinations heavily, since they share with us what works with each combination without risks.
I was with Jake yesterday while he did the exact same process with a 356 SC engine for Miles Collier. This is what his world looked like while I was there to grab some intake manifold pieces he had just finished flow testing. He had 4 sets of bearings open, searching through combinations of them that would give the desired bearing clearance.
Thanks for the explanation, I’m pretty sure the whole process is as perfect as it can be. I went to the ln site and saw your rand engine rebuilt services, this is where you use my core? I also saw the FSI cross pipes for sale. If an FSI engine becomes available will it be posted on this site?? A final question im talking about a cable throttle 3.4, will you be offering rebuild services for a bore out rnd 3.8 engine? Thanks and once again I appreciated the details.
01-25-2023, 02:46 PM
