New member reality check
02-25-2023, 11:54 PM
#1
New member reality check
Hey all - enjoyed reading and learning here. Lifetime Porsche admirer and 911 lover. Dreamed of owning a 911 since the late 70s and almost pulled the trigger a couple of times over the years. But, kids, new jobs, relocations, etc., always interfered. Entered the “looking/shopping” phase many months ago with the goal of an air cooled 3.2 targa driver quality. But an interesting thing happened as I found the 996…..that is if I was willing to expand my search to include the 996, I could fulfill my dream AND have a high performance daily driver that I could actually drive comfortably (I live in the South). I’m aware of all the potential liability areas of the M96 and while the air cooled 3.2 is very reliable, it is also an expensive engine to maintain and ensure it is “bullet proof”. It seems the 996 is a relative value as well maintained low-mileage cars are still available in the upper price range ($30K+). Even spending $30k on a rebuild I’m still at the bottom end of a nice driver quality air-cooled and a car with better performance, comfort and safety features. I’ve almost convinced myself what I just typed is true LOL. Convince me please, or argue I should up my purchase budget for the nice driver air cooled!
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Popular Reply
02-27-2023, 01:52 AM
A friend of mine and i went out driving and wrote a review. Long read but hope it helps
By Rami Cerone and Blake Jennings
For those who love to drive, few cars offer more thrills on tight roads than a Porsche 911. While new examples cost more than most of us can afford, older models in reliable condition can be had for less than the average out-the-door cost of a new SUV. The question is: if you have $50,000 to spend on a 911, should you go old-school air-cooled or new-school water-cooled? A sixty degree morning and empty country roads north of Houston gave us the chance to explore this question in matching blue 911’s from each era.
Representing the luftgekühlt era is Blake’s 1985 911 Carrera 3.2 in Prussian Blue with approximately 130,000 miles. This mostly stock example benefits from upgraded torsion bars, a modern-ish air-conditioning, 993-era seats, cat-less sport exhaust, Porsche’s short shift kit, and grippier tires than originally specced. Representing the modern era is Rami’s 80,000 mile 2001 Carrera 4, meaning all-time, all-wheel drive. This Midnight Blue Metallic 996 generation 911 has a short-shift kit from a 997, is lowered, and rides on Michelin Super Sport rubber.
Let’s start with an important caveat. These cars both fit our $50,000 ceiling, but are not equal in price. Blake bought his ‘85 three years ago in the mid-30’s, and it has since risen in value to our ceiling. In contrast, Rami picked up his 996 last month in the low-20’s, an absolute bargain especially for a car with an IMS retrofit and significant preventative maintenance. So yes, both are “affordable” based on average new vehicle prices… but you can have two of Rami’s for one of Blake’s at current prices.
Now that the details are out of the way, let’s get to driving impressions! We took the cars out on our favorite back roads which vary from tight 2nd gear corners to fast 4th gear sweepers and include a range of road types, elevation changes, and tarmac surfaces. After an hour, we swapped keys and tried the same roads again.
Impressions of a 996 Carrera 4:
Rami: This is a solid car and it feels substantial. The seats are narrow, but supportive. The unmistakable sound of a rear-engine Porsche greets you as soon as you turn the key, which is still on the left side of the steering wheel in homage to early Porsche race cars. Visibility is excellent and the clutch is smooth. Power is linear, the torque is noticeable, and the car likes to rev high into its powerband. There is a slight notchiness to the gears, but it is very manageable and takes just a few minutes to become second nature. That said, quick shifts will not be a norm with this car. Once into the corners, the car sticks to the road with zero drama. This particular 996 has been lowered and has thicker sway bars, resulting in very little body roll. The car goes precisely where it is pointed, and the steering wheel provides lots of information about what the front tires are encountering on the road. This is truly a delight to drive, whether it is driven gently or enthusiastically. It does exactly what it’s asked, and feels light and agile while doing it. Once out of the corners and back on the highway, with the windows up and air conditioning blowing, it feels like a grand tourer. The miles flow effortlessly. Wind and road noise are low and the car is planted. Set cruise control and drive hours in comfort, as proven when I drove this car 450 miles back from New Orleans last month.
Blake: My first impression setting out in this particular 996 is that I cannot believe Rami got this car for this price! I expected squeaks and rattles and a sagging headliner. Instead, I found a clean, taught interior where all the buttons and controls still worked. And more impressive, the suspension and driveline felt factory tight, with the exception of excessive play in the gear shift mechanism that can likely be fixed with a couple bushings or cables. Getting out of my ‘85 and into this reminded me how so many people lost the forest for the trees with the 996. Yes, the headlights and interior switchgear still look ungainly in my opinion. But what are those nitpicks in comparison to a twenty-year old chassis that can still offer such poise and speed on twisty roads at a price that rivals a used Camry!?
Now for details. Steering feel is superb, and is benefited in this car by the addition of an aftermarket Momo wheel spaced further towards the driver. The hydraulic steering provides substantial feedback and proper weight for a sports car, though it is not quite as delightful as the non-assisted steering in my ‘85 (but parking lot maneuvers are much easier!) While the aforementioned shifter linkage needs repair, the transmission itself is tight and heel-toe shifting is phenomenally easy, especially in comparison to the 915 box in my ‘85. I actually second guessed myself on my first 3-2 corner-entry downshifts, sure I must still be in neutral because it was simply too easy to rev-match and slide down a gear. The engine is equally good, providing strong torque from midrange and begging you to ring it out. For those used to modern low-lag turbos, this will not have the low-end grunt you expect. You must let the engine breathe and then shift to keep the revs above 3000. These engines do have the potential for catastrophic IMS failures, but this liability can be solved, as it was in this car, which leaves you with a superb and reasonably dependable engine. My only disappointment is that with a stock exhaust, it’s far too quiet for my taste. On the inside, seating is surprisingly tight. This car is larger than my ‘85 but feels noticeably smaller on the inside. That is largely due to the aerodynamic redesign that Porsche implemented with this generation, significantly increasing windshield rake. The effect is that this cabin feels more cave-like than older 911’s. On the upside, wind noise is down and top speed is up. Furthermore, the tighter cabin does mean that every control is within easy reach. Seats and pedals are perfectly positioned and supportive. This is a great place to sit while taking corners fast!
Impressions of an 80’s Carrera
Rami: Interestingly, this cockpit instantly felt more roomy than the 996. The steering wheel is big and the view of the road is commanding due to the small dash and the very thin pillars. Starting the car sounds throaty as this example has an aftermarket exhaust and no catalytic converter. The sound is unmistakable. The clutch pedal is hinged to the ground which feels different the first time your foot presses it, but you adjust quickly and then never notice it again. The shifter is what feels most different from the 996. This is definitely not a fast shifter. It takes effort to put in gear, every gear, every time. Slow shifting makes it more work, but also makes the drive rewarding when you get it right. Acceleration feels great. While not as fast as the 996, it feels fast enough with plenty of torque. Corners are great in this car. There’s little body roll and it sticks to the road with an unmatched steering feel thanks to its lack of power assist. The ride is firm, but very comfortable and it tracks straight and feels solid. Downshifting for corners takes practice and sometimes requires a double clutch press. But this is part of the charm of an older 911. Windows down with the sound of the motor in your ears makes for a very engaging drive.
Blake: My first impression whenever I get into this car is how surprisingly airy the interior feels. This is a small car - the wheelbase is shorter than a Miata. I can reach both door handles easily from the driver’s seat. Yet thanks to the relatively upright windshield that’s positioned close to the driver, along with thin A and B pillars, it feels bright and roomy with excellent visibility in all directions. Second impression comes with a turn of the key. The growl this engine makes is, in my opinion, among the best sounds in automotive history. The lack of water jackets on the cylinders combined with a catless sport exhaust provide enough sound to wake the neighbors. The third impression hits your nose ten seconds after startup: the smell of burning oil. Like most 911’s of this era, the valve guides wear out and allow oil to seep into the cylinders when the car sits. That oil burns off in the first few minutes of driving. I need to fix that, but rebuilds on these engines run in the five-figures, a distinct disadvantage to the ownership experience. Fourth impression as I set off, this transmission takes WORK, as Rami pointed out. For the uninitiated, 911’s used a very old transmission design called the 915 until the 1987 model year when it was replaced by the much more modern, but heavier G50. The 915 has long throws, weak synchros, and no centering spring. While mine benefits from the factory short-shift kit and an aftermarket centering and gate system, it is still very challenging to get into gear. Reverse is non-synchro, so you have to take it very slow. After 130,000 miles, the 2nd through 4th gear synchros have worn, meaning these shifts take precise rev-matching and gentle engagement. Get it wrong and it makes a god-awful racket. Get it right, especially on a high rpm 3-2 downshift into a tight corner and you feel like Aryton Senna. That is the best way I know how to describe this car. It will not tolerate distracted or lazy driving. You must concentrate and work to drive it well. But when you get it right, it’s as if the stars aligned.
Back to our country roads. If you compare this car, and to a lesser extent Rami’s 996, to a modern sports car, one of the primary things you’ll notice is the substantial compliance over rough pavement. This car has relatively large sidewall tires over small diameter wheels, the opposite of sports cars today. Combine that with plenty of suspension travel, and it soaks up asphalt patches, bridge transitions, and camber changes in a way that few modern cars can. The steering also shines on these country roads. With no power assist and a large steering wheel, you can feel every undulation and change in grip. This is especially welcome given an old 911’s unusual weight-transfer dynamics. The engine is fully behind the back wheels, and you feel that far more in this 911 than in Rami’s all-wheel-drive 996. On a gravel strewn corner, his car stayed planted at speed while mine oversteered dramatically. Since I enjoy catching a slide, this was a bonus. But for those who prefer stability over drama, the 996 is a better fit. As for power, this car provides plenty of torque and a willingness to rev, but cannot match the pure speed of modern Porsches. This drivetrain is for those who prefer drama to outright power. Back out on the highway, this car easily kept pace with modern traffic and the 993 seats are among the most comfortable I have sat in. Air conditioning is the weak link in old 911’s, though this particular one benefits from substantial upgrades. While this car is not the effortless cruiser of Rami’s 996, it does not exhaust you or strand you on long trips like so many classic cars.
The verdict.
Rami: It was a perfect day and so much fun to drive these two cars back-to-back. Despite their differences, you can immediately tell one descends from the other thanks to their unmistakable shape. Our little convoy turned heads as the 911 is universally recognized and loved. Now to pick a winner. If I had to have just one car to drive every day, I would choose the 996. Comfortable, great air conditioning, easy clutch and shifter and good sound insulation makes it an easy daily driver that can go anywhere, yet still be fun when the roads get curvy. The air-cooled 911 feels special, but with its heavy shifting and old-school air conditioning, it would be too much for many on the daily commute. That said, you can’t exactly go wrong with either. People around the world praise 911’s of any generation, and drive them daily even with 100K, 200K and more on the odometer. The 911 of any generation was made to be driven, not garaged. So just choose whichever one you personally find more fun to drive. They are also depreciation proof. As long as you buy it right, paying attention to previous maintenance and condition, it is one of the few sports cars that you can drive without the fear of losing money with every passing mile.
Blake: On twisty backroads, you can’t lose no matter which of these cars you choose. I have driven many modern cars, some much faster than either of these. And yet none of them are as enjoyable on tight roads as these. Both are engaging and reward a driver’s skill without compromising comfort and reliability. Your choice will really come down to your personal preferences and needs. Note that neither are practical for a family. The back seats are seats in name only - my kids outgrew them by 10. So realistically, these are both two-seat sports cars. So what do you most value in a sports car? Speed or drama? Daily usability or occasion? Relaxed fun or intense concentration? If the former, the 996 is your match. If the latter, then like me you will be hard pressed to find a more rewarding car to drive than an air-cooled 911.
By Rami Cerone and Blake Jennings
For those who love to drive, few cars offer more thrills on tight roads than a Porsche 911. While new examples cost more than most of us can afford, older models in reliable condition can be had for less than the average out-the-door cost of a new SUV. The question is: if you have $50,000 to spend on a 911, should you go old-school air-cooled or new-school water-cooled? A sixty degree morning and empty country roads north of Houston gave us the chance to explore this question in matching blue 911’s from each era.
Representing the luftgekühlt era is Blake’s 1985 911 Carrera 3.2 in Prussian Blue with approximately 130,000 miles. This mostly stock example benefits from upgraded torsion bars, a modern-ish air-conditioning, 993-era seats, cat-less sport exhaust, Porsche’s short shift kit, and grippier tires than originally specced. Representing the modern era is Rami’s 80,000 mile 2001 Carrera 4, meaning all-time, all-wheel drive. This Midnight Blue Metallic 996 generation 911 has a short-shift kit from a 997, is lowered, and rides on Michelin Super Sport rubber.
Let’s start with an important caveat. These cars both fit our $50,000 ceiling, but are not equal in price. Blake bought his ‘85 three years ago in the mid-30’s, and it has since risen in value to our ceiling. In contrast, Rami picked up his 996 last month in the low-20’s, an absolute bargain especially for a car with an IMS retrofit and significant preventative maintenance. So yes, both are “affordable” based on average new vehicle prices… but you can have two of Rami’s for one of Blake’s at current prices.
Now that the details are out of the way, let’s get to driving impressions! We took the cars out on our favorite back roads which vary from tight 2nd gear corners to fast 4th gear sweepers and include a range of road types, elevation changes, and tarmac surfaces. After an hour, we swapped keys and tried the same roads again.
Impressions of a 996 Carrera 4:
Rami: This is a solid car and it feels substantial. The seats are narrow, but supportive. The unmistakable sound of a rear-engine Porsche greets you as soon as you turn the key, which is still on the left side of the steering wheel in homage to early Porsche race cars. Visibility is excellent and the clutch is smooth. Power is linear, the torque is noticeable, and the car likes to rev high into its powerband. There is a slight notchiness to the gears, but it is very manageable and takes just a few minutes to become second nature. That said, quick shifts will not be a norm with this car. Once into the corners, the car sticks to the road with zero drama. This particular 996 has been lowered and has thicker sway bars, resulting in very little body roll. The car goes precisely where it is pointed, and the steering wheel provides lots of information about what the front tires are encountering on the road. This is truly a delight to drive, whether it is driven gently or enthusiastically. It does exactly what it’s asked, and feels light and agile while doing it. Once out of the corners and back on the highway, with the windows up and air conditioning blowing, it feels like a grand tourer. The miles flow effortlessly. Wind and road noise are low and the car is planted. Set cruise control and drive hours in comfort, as proven when I drove this car 450 miles back from New Orleans last month.
Blake: My first impression setting out in this particular 996 is that I cannot believe Rami got this car for this price! I expected squeaks and rattles and a sagging headliner. Instead, I found a clean, taught interior where all the buttons and controls still worked. And more impressive, the suspension and driveline felt factory tight, with the exception of excessive play in the gear shift mechanism that can likely be fixed with a couple bushings or cables. Getting out of my ‘85 and into this reminded me how so many people lost the forest for the trees with the 996. Yes, the headlights and interior switchgear still look ungainly in my opinion. But what are those nitpicks in comparison to a twenty-year old chassis that can still offer such poise and speed on twisty roads at a price that rivals a used Camry!?
Now for details. Steering feel is superb, and is benefited in this car by the addition of an aftermarket Momo wheel spaced further towards the driver. The hydraulic steering provides substantial feedback and proper weight for a sports car, though it is not quite as delightful as the non-assisted steering in my ‘85 (but parking lot maneuvers are much easier!) While the aforementioned shifter linkage needs repair, the transmission itself is tight and heel-toe shifting is phenomenally easy, especially in comparison to the 915 box in my ‘85. I actually second guessed myself on my first 3-2 corner-entry downshifts, sure I must still be in neutral because it was simply too easy to rev-match and slide down a gear. The engine is equally good, providing strong torque from midrange and begging you to ring it out. For those used to modern low-lag turbos, this will not have the low-end grunt you expect. You must let the engine breathe and then shift to keep the revs above 3000. These engines do have the potential for catastrophic IMS failures, but this liability can be solved, as it was in this car, which leaves you with a superb and reasonably dependable engine. My only disappointment is that with a stock exhaust, it’s far too quiet for my taste. On the inside, seating is surprisingly tight. This car is larger than my ‘85 but feels noticeably smaller on the inside. That is largely due to the aerodynamic redesign that Porsche implemented with this generation, significantly increasing windshield rake. The effect is that this cabin feels more cave-like than older 911’s. On the upside, wind noise is down and top speed is up. Furthermore, the tighter cabin does mean that every control is within easy reach. Seats and pedals are perfectly positioned and supportive. This is a great place to sit while taking corners fast!
Impressions of an 80’s Carrera
Rami: Interestingly, this cockpit instantly felt more roomy than the 996. The steering wheel is big and the view of the road is commanding due to the small dash and the very thin pillars. Starting the car sounds throaty as this example has an aftermarket exhaust and no catalytic converter. The sound is unmistakable. The clutch pedal is hinged to the ground which feels different the first time your foot presses it, but you adjust quickly and then never notice it again. The shifter is what feels most different from the 996. This is definitely not a fast shifter. It takes effort to put in gear, every gear, every time. Slow shifting makes it more work, but also makes the drive rewarding when you get it right. Acceleration feels great. While not as fast as the 996, it feels fast enough with plenty of torque. Corners are great in this car. There’s little body roll and it sticks to the road with an unmatched steering feel thanks to its lack of power assist. The ride is firm, but very comfortable and it tracks straight and feels solid. Downshifting for corners takes practice and sometimes requires a double clutch press. But this is part of the charm of an older 911. Windows down with the sound of the motor in your ears makes for a very engaging drive.
Blake: My first impression whenever I get into this car is how surprisingly airy the interior feels. This is a small car - the wheelbase is shorter than a Miata. I can reach both door handles easily from the driver’s seat. Yet thanks to the relatively upright windshield that’s positioned close to the driver, along with thin A and B pillars, it feels bright and roomy with excellent visibility in all directions. Second impression comes with a turn of the key. The growl this engine makes is, in my opinion, among the best sounds in automotive history. The lack of water jackets on the cylinders combined with a catless sport exhaust provide enough sound to wake the neighbors. The third impression hits your nose ten seconds after startup: the smell of burning oil. Like most 911’s of this era, the valve guides wear out and allow oil to seep into the cylinders when the car sits. That oil burns off in the first few minutes of driving. I need to fix that, but rebuilds on these engines run in the five-figures, a distinct disadvantage to the ownership experience. Fourth impression as I set off, this transmission takes WORK, as Rami pointed out. For the uninitiated, 911’s used a very old transmission design called the 915 until the 1987 model year when it was replaced by the much more modern, but heavier G50. The 915 has long throws, weak synchros, and no centering spring. While mine benefits from the factory short-shift kit and an aftermarket centering and gate system, it is still very challenging to get into gear. Reverse is non-synchro, so you have to take it very slow. After 130,000 miles, the 2nd through 4th gear synchros have worn, meaning these shifts take precise rev-matching and gentle engagement. Get it wrong and it makes a god-awful racket. Get it right, especially on a high rpm 3-2 downshift into a tight corner and you feel like Aryton Senna. That is the best way I know how to describe this car. It will not tolerate distracted or lazy driving. You must concentrate and work to drive it well. But when you get it right, it’s as if the stars aligned.
Back to our country roads. If you compare this car, and to a lesser extent Rami’s 996, to a modern sports car, one of the primary things you’ll notice is the substantial compliance over rough pavement. This car has relatively large sidewall tires over small diameter wheels, the opposite of sports cars today. Combine that with plenty of suspension travel, and it soaks up asphalt patches, bridge transitions, and camber changes in a way that few modern cars can. The steering also shines on these country roads. With no power assist and a large steering wheel, you can feel every undulation and change in grip. This is especially welcome given an old 911’s unusual weight-transfer dynamics. The engine is fully behind the back wheels, and you feel that far more in this 911 than in Rami’s all-wheel-drive 996. On a gravel strewn corner, his car stayed planted at speed while mine oversteered dramatically. Since I enjoy catching a slide, this was a bonus. But for those who prefer stability over drama, the 996 is a better fit. As for power, this car provides plenty of torque and a willingness to rev, but cannot match the pure speed of modern Porsches. This drivetrain is for those who prefer drama to outright power. Back out on the highway, this car easily kept pace with modern traffic and the 993 seats are among the most comfortable I have sat in. Air conditioning is the weak link in old 911’s, though this particular one benefits from substantial upgrades. While this car is not the effortless cruiser of Rami’s 996, it does not exhaust you or strand you on long trips like so many classic cars.
The verdict.
Rami: It was a perfect day and so much fun to drive these two cars back-to-back. Despite their differences, you can immediately tell one descends from the other thanks to their unmistakable shape. Our little convoy turned heads as the 911 is universally recognized and loved. Now to pick a winner. If I had to have just one car to drive every day, I would choose the 996. Comfortable, great air conditioning, easy clutch and shifter and good sound insulation makes it an easy daily driver that can go anywhere, yet still be fun when the roads get curvy. The air-cooled 911 feels special, but with its heavy shifting and old-school air conditioning, it would be too much for many on the daily commute. That said, you can’t exactly go wrong with either. People around the world praise 911’s of any generation, and drive them daily even with 100K, 200K and more on the odometer. The 911 of any generation was made to be driven, not garaged. So just choose whichever one you personally find more fun to drive. They are also depreciation proof. As long as you buy it right, paying attention to previous maintenance and condition, it is one of the few sports cars that you can drive without the fear of losing money with every passing mile.
Blake: On twisty backroads, you can’t lose no matter which of these cars you choose. I have driven many modern cars, some much faster than either of these. And yet none of them are as enjoyable on tight roads as these. Both are engaging and reward a driver’s skill without compromising comfort and reliability. Your choice will really come down to your personal preferences and needs. Note that neither are practical for a family. The back seats are seats in name only - my kids outgrew them by 10. So realistically, these are both two-seat sports cars. So what do you most value in a sports car? Speed or drama? Daily usability or occasion? Relaxed fun or intense concentration? If the former, the 996 is your match. If the latter, then like me you will be hard pressed to find a more rewarding car to drive than an air-cooled 911.
02-26-2023, 12:22 AM
#2
I absolutely think that is true and I really think the 996, wonky headlights and all ☺️ is only on an upwards trajectory while the older air cooled I think have plateaued a bit. And you are right snag one for $30k, even if you end up spending $40k on say an FSI 4.0, it is one hell of a car for $70k!
BUT you had better hurry because everyone else is coming to the same realization and my guess is that the nice ones are becoming hard to get.
BUT you had better hurry because everyone else is coming to the same realization and my guess is that the nice ones are becoming hard to get.
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02-26-2023, 01:07 AM
#3
Rennlist Member
Also would like to add that a Hartech rebuild is coming in at a very good price point.
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02-26-2023, 08:24 AM
#4
I still lust after a 911SC, but am happy with my 981 Boxster S and my '94 911 C2. I bought a few months ago ( while Porsche prices were up, of course), but got a nice 65,000 mile car with complete records and excellent, proactive service for about $34k. With a new clutch and preventive AOS, I have about $38k invested. However, With regular basic maintenance, I can reasonably expect 50-60,00 miles or more of reliable use. Better bargains can be found now, but I think its good value.
02-26-2023, 09:54 AM
#5
Rennlist Member
This is exactly what I did in 2018! I found a one owner low miles '99 c4 cab and drove it for a couple of years. I opted for a FSI Stage 1, 3.4 -> 3.6, with a bunch of goodies in 2020. I got the car back in 06/2021 and couldn't be more pleased with the results! All in, I spent less than an older, air-cooled 911, and a lot less than newer 911s!
Last edited by blacksquid; 02-26-2023 at 09:57 AM.
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F. Thumb (02-28-2023)
02-26-2023, 10:18 AM
#6
Rennlist Member
Long time 911 owner here. I really do love the 996. It’s such a sweet spot from the angle of still looking and feeling a bit old school but having newer comforts and performance. I still grab that key before heading to the garage more than any other car we have right now :-). And to reiterate what someone said above, the prices don’t seem to be losing any steam so act fast!
02-26-2023, 03:20 PM
#7
Long time 911 owner here. I really do love the 996. It’s such a sweet spot from the angle of still looking and feeling a bit old school but having newer comforts and performance. I still grab that key before heading to the garage more than any other car we have right now :-). And to reiterate what someone said above, the prices don’t seem to be losing any steam so act fast!
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Rockerchief (02-26-2023)
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02-26-2023, 03:54 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
Get yourself an early 98/99 build car they will raise the fastest due to their slightly unique features
or a PTS or colored Turbo it offers a lot of panache for the money
or a PTS or colored Turbo it offers a lot of panache for the money
02-26-2023, 04:12 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Consider the Turbo. It is a civilized drive with the reliability of the Mezger engine.
The GT3 has the normally aspirated version of the Mezger engine (I've got 149K miles on mine), but is more focused for the track and you may not find it so comfortable.
Both vehicles will hold their values very well, although they do command a premium price over the Carrera, I think they are worth the look.
The GT3 has the normally aspirated version of the Mezger engine (I've got 149K miles on mine), but is more focused for the track and you may not find it so comfortable.
Both vehicles will hold their values very well, although they do command a premium price over the Carrera, I think they are worth the look.
02-26-2023, 07:17 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
I owned an air cooled 911 (three different models) for a period of 35 years before buying a 996. As much as I loved the air cooled cars (the sound of the cooling fan, the instrument panel and the “thunk” when closing the doors, a 996 is a better car, better power, good heat and air, better handling and just an all around better car in my opinion.
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02-26-2023, 07:59 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
I owned an air cooled 911 (three different models) for a period of 35 years before buying a 996. As much as I loved the air cooled cars (the sound of the cooling fan, the instrument panel and the “thunk” when closing the doors, a 996 is a better car, better power, good heat and air, better handling and just an all around better car in my opinion.
02-26-2023, 08:00 PM
#12
Consider the Turbo. It is a civilized drive with the reliability of the Mezger engine.
The GT3 has the normally aspirated version of the Mezger engine (I've got 149K miles on mine), but is more focused for the track and you may not find it so comfortable.
Both vehicles will hold their values very well, although they do command a premium price over the Carrera, I think they are worth the look.
The GT3 has the normally aspirated version of the Mezger engine (I've got 149K miles on mine), but is more focused for the track and you may not find it so comfortable.
Both vehicles will hold their values very well, although they do command a premium price over the Carrera, I think they are worth the look.
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02-26-2023, 10:45 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by 365jon;[url=tel:18653487
18653487[/url]]Hey all - enjoyed reading and learning here. Lifetime Porsche admirer and 911 lover. Dreamed of owning a 911 since the late 70s and almost pulled the trigger a couple of times over the years. But, kids, new jobs, relocations, etc., always interfered. Entered the “looking/shopping” phase many months ago with the goal of an air cooled 3.2 targa driver quality. But an interesting thing happened as I found the 996…..that is if I was willing to expand my search to include the 996, I could fulfill my dream AND have a high performance daily driver that I could actually drive comfortably (I live in the South). I’m aware of all the potential liability areas of the M96 and while the air cooled 3.2 is very reliable, it is also an expensive engine to maintain and ensure it is “bullet proof”. It seems the 996 is a relative value as well maintained low-mileage cars are still available in the upper price range ($30K+). Even spending $30k on a rebuild I’m still at the bottom end of a nice driver quality air-cooled and a car with better performance, comfort and safety features. I’ve almost convinced myself what I just typed is true LOL. Convince me please, or argue I should up my purchase budget for the nice driver air cooled!
Nothing against the air-cooled cars, but those car are super antique by now. The 996 is the new old classic 911.
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02-27-2023, 12:26 AM
#14
Rennlist Member
Don't kid yourself, driving ANY Porsche "daily" will not be cheap...( unless you can do all the work/troubleshooting yourself)
Air-Cooled cars are expensive to buy, and very costly to "Daily" drive. Most don't get driven except to a show or C&C. Just about anytime one goes on a "Dive" they have to peal off early due to problems are have to be towed home, or are hell to start after a hot soak...You just don't see them going on "nice drives".
Boxsters and Caymans are an option if you are under 6ft tall..but if you are 6ft and over the 911 is what you need..
Turbo Tip 996 is best deal going if you don't "need to row the gears" ,, but if you need to row the gears to enjoy the drive the Carrera 996 is the one you want..
Air-Cooled cars are expensive to buy, and very costly to "Daily" drive. Most don't get driven except to a show or C&C. Just about anytime one goes on a "Dive" they have to peal off early due to problems are have to be towed home, or are hell to start after a hot soak...You just don't see them going on "nice drives".
Boxsters and Caymans are an option if you are under 6ft tall..but if you are 6ft and over the 911 is what you need..
Turbo Tip 996 is best deal going if you don't "need to row the gears" ,, but if you need to row the gears to enjoy the drive the Carrera 996 is the one you want..
02-27-2023, 01:52 AM
#15
A friend of mine and i went out driving and wrote a review. Long read but hope it helps
By Rami Cerone and Blake Jennings
For those who love to drive, few cars offer more thrills on tight roads than a Porsche 911. While new examples cost more than most of us can afford, older models in reliable condition can be had for less than the average out-the-door cost of a new SUV. The question is: if you have $50,000 to spend on a 911, should you go old-school air-cooled or new-school water-cooled? A sixty degree morning and empty country roads north of Houston gave us the chance to explore this question in matching blue 911’s from each era.
Representing the luftgekühlt era is Blake’s 1985 911 Carrera 3.2 in Prussian Blue with approximately 130,000 miles. This mostly stock example benefits from upgraded torsion bars, a modern-ish air-conditioning, 993-era seats, cat-less sport exhaust, Porsche’s short shift kit, and grippier tires than originally specced. Representing the modern era is Rami’s 80,000 mile 2001 Carrera 4, meaning all-time, all-wheel drive. This Midnight Blue Metallic 996 generation 911 has a short-shift kit from a 997, is lowered, and rides on Michelin Super Sport rubber.
Let’s start with an important caveat. These cars both fit our $50,000 ceiling, but are not equal in price. Blake bought his ‘85 three years ago in the mid-30’s, and it has since risen in value to our ceiling. In contrast, Rami picked up his 996 last month in the low-20’s, an absolute bargain especially for a car with an IMS retrofit and significant preventative maintenance. So yes, both are “affordable” based on average new vehicle prices… but you can have two of Rami’s for one of Blake’s at current prices.
Now that the details are out of the way, let’s get to driving impressions! We took the cars out on our favorite back roads which vary from tight 2nd gear corners to fast 4th gear sweepers and include a range of road types, elevation changes, and tarmac surfaces. After an hour, we swapped keys and tried the same roads again.
Impressions of a 996 Carrera 4:
Rami: This is a solid car and it feels substantial. The seats are narrow, but supportive. The unmistakable sound of a rear-engine Porsche greets you as soon as you turn the key, which is still on the left side of the steering wheel in homage to early Porsche race cars. Visibility is excellent and the clutch is smooth. Power is linear, the torque is noticeable, and the car likes to rev high into its powerband. There is a slight notchiness to the gears, but it is very manageable and takes just a few minutes to become second nature. That said, quick shifts will not be a norm with this car. Once into the corners, the car sticks to the road with zero drama. This particular 996 has been lowered and has thicker sway bars, resulting in very little body roll. The car goes precisely where it is pointed, and the steering wheel provides lots of information about what the front tires are encountering on the road. This is truly a delight to drive, whether it is driven gently or enthusiastically. It does exactly what it’s asked, and feels light and agile while doing it. Once out of the corners and back on the highway, with the windows up and air conditioning blowing, it feels like a grand tourer. The miles flow effortlessly. Wind and road noise are low and the car is planted. Set cruise control and drive hours in comfort, as proven when I drove this car 450 miles back from New Orleans last month.
Blake: My first impression setting out in this particular 996 is that I cannot believe Rami got this car for this price! I expected squeaks and rattles and a sagging headliner. Instead, I found a clean, taught interior where all the buttons and controls still worked. And more impressive, the suspension and driveline felt factory tight, with the exception of excessive play in the gear shift mechanism that can likely be fixed with a couple bushings or cables. Getting out of my ‘85 and into this reminded me how so many people lost the forest for the trees with the 996. Yes, the headlights and interior switchgear still look ungainly in my opinion. But what are those nitpicks in comparison to a twenty-year old chassis that can still offer such poise and speed on twisty roads at a price that rivals a used Camry!?
Now for details. Steering feel is superb, and is benefited in this car by the addition of an aftermarket Momo wheel spaced further towards the driver. The hydraulic steering provides substantial feedback and proper weight for a sports car, though it is not quite as delightful as the non-assisted steering in my ‘85 (but parking lot maneuvers are much easier!) While the aforementioned shifter linkage needs repair, the transmission itself is tight and heel-toe shifting is phenomenally easy, especially in comparison to the 915 box in my ‘85. I actually second guessed myself on my first 3-2 corner-entry downshifts, sure I must still be in neutral because it was simply too easy to rev-match and slide down a gear. The engine is equally good, providing strong torque from midrange and begging you to ring it out. For those used to modern low-lag turbos, this will not have the low-end grunt you expect. You must let the engine breathe and then shift to keep the revs above 3000. These engines do have the potential for catastrophic IMS failures, but this liability can be solved, as it was in this car, which leaves you with a superb and reasonably dependable engine. My only disappointment is that with a stock exhaust, it’s far too quiet for my taste. On the inside, seating is surprisingly tight. This car is larger than my ‘85 but feels noticeably smaller on the inside. That is largely due to the aerodynamic redesign that Porsche implemented with this generation, significantly increasing windshield rake. The effect is that this cabin feels more cave-like than older 911’s. On the upside, wind noise is down and top speed is up. Furthermore, the tighter cabin does mean that every control is within easy reach. Seats and pedals are perfectly positioned and supportive. This is a great place to sit while taking corners fast!
Impressions of an 80’s Carrera
Rami: Interestingly, this cockpit instantly felt more roomy than the 996. The steering wheel is big and the view of the road is commanding due to the small dash and the very thin pillars. Starting the car sounds throaty as this example has an aftermarket exhaust and no catalytic converter. The sound is unmistakable. The clutch pedal is hinged to the ground which feels different the first time your foot presses it, but you adjust quickly and then never notice it again. The shifter is what feels most different from the 996. This is definitely not a fast shifter. It takes effort to put in gear, every gear, every time. Slow shifting makes it more work, but also makes the drive rewarding when you get it right. Acceleration feels great. While not as fast as the 996, it feels fast enough with plenty of torque. Corners are great in this car. There’s little body roll and it sticks to the road with an unmatched steering feel thanks to its lack of power assist. The ride is firm, but very comfortable and it tracks straight and feels solid. Downshifting for corners takes practice and sometimes requires a double clutch press. But this is part of the charm of an older 911. Windows down with the sound of the motor in your ears makes for a very engaging drive.
Blake: My first impression whenever I get into this car is how surprisingly airy the interior feels. This is a small car - the wheelbase is shorter than a Miata. I can reach both door handles easily from the driver’s seat. Yet thanks to the relatively upright windshield that’s positioned close to the driver, along with thin A and B pillars, it feels bright and roomy with excellent visibility in all directions. Second impression comes with a turn of the key. The growl this engine makes is, in my opinion, among the best sounds in automotive history. The lack of water jackets on the cylinders combined with a catless sport exhaust provide enough sound to wake the neighbors. The third impression hits your nose ten seconds after startup: the smell of burning oil. Like most 911’s of this era, the valve guides wear out and allow oil to seep into the cylinders when the car sits. That oil burns off in the first few minutes of driving. I need to fix that, but rebuilds on these engines run in the five-figures, a distinct disadvantage to the ownership experience. Fourth impression as I set off, this transmission takes WORK, as Rami pointed out. For the uninitiated, 911’s used a very old transmission design called the 915 until the 1987 model year when it was replaced by the much more modern, but heavier G50. The 915 has long throws, weak synchros, and no centering spring. While mine benefits from the factory short-shift kit and an aftermarket centering and gate system, it is still very challenging to get into gear. Reverse is non-synchro, so you have to take it very slow. After 130,000 miles, the 2nd through 4th gear synchros have worn, meaning these shifts take precise rev-matching and gentle engagement. Get it wrong and it makes a god-awful racket. Get it right, especially on a high rpm 3-2 downshift into a tight corner and you feel like Aryton Senna. That is the best way I know how to describe this car. It will not tolerate distracted or lazy driving. You must concentrate and work to drive it well. But when you get it right, it’s as if the stars aligned.
Back to our country roads. If you compare this car, and to a lesser extent Rami’s 996, to a modern sports car, one of the primary things you’ll notice is the substantial compliance over rough pavement. This car has relatively large sidewall tires over small diameter wheels, the opposite of sports cars today. Combine that with plenty of suspension travel, and it soaks up asphalt patches, bridge transitions, and camber changes in a way that few modern cars can. The steering also shines on these country roads. With no power assist and a large steering wheel, you can feel every undulation and change in grip. This is especially welcome given an old 911’s unusual weight-transfer dynamics. The engine is fully behind the back wheels, and you feel that far more in this 911 than in Rami’s all-wheel-drive 996. On a gravel strewn corner, his car stayed planted at speed while mine oversteered dramatically. Since I enjoy catching a slide, this was a bonus. But for those who prefer stability over drama, the 996 is a better fit. As for power, this car provides plenty of torque and a willingness to rev, but cannot match the pure speed of modern Porsches. This drivetrain is for those who prefer drama to outright power. Back out on the highway, this car easily kept pace with modern traffic and the 993 seats are among the most comfortable I have sat in. Air conditioning is the weak link in old 911’s, though this particular one benefits from substantial upgrades. While this car is not the effortless cruiser of Rami’s 996, it does not exhaust you or strand you on long trips like so many classic cars.
The verdict.
Rami: It was a perfect day and so much fun to drive these two cars back-to-back. Despite their differences, you can immediately tell one descends from the other thanks to their unmistakable shape. Our little convoy turned heads as the 911 is universally recognized and loved. Now to pick a winner. If I had to have just one car to drive every day, I would choose the 996. Comfortable, great air conditioning, easy clutch and shifter and good sound insulation makes it an easy daily driver that can go anywhere, yet still be fun when the roads get curvy. The air-cooled 911 feels special, but with its heavy shifting and old-school air conditioning, it would be too much for many on the daily commute. That said, you can’t exactly go wrong with either. People around the world praise 911’s of any generation, and drive them daily even with 100K, 200K and more on the odometer. The 911 of any generation was made to be driven, not garaged. So just choose whichever one you personally find more fun to drive. They are also depreciation proof. As long as you buy it right, paying attention to previous maintenance and condition, it is one of the few sports cars that you can drive without the fear of losing money with every passing mile.
Blake: On twisty backroads, you can’t lose no matter which of these cars you choose. I have driven many modern cars, some much faster than either of these. And yet none of them are as enjoyable on tight roads as these. Both are engaging and reward a driver’s skill without compromising comfort and reliability. Your choice will really come down to your personal preferences and needs. Note that neither are practical for a family. The back seats are seats in name only - my kids outgrew them by 10. So realistically, these are both two-seat sports cars. So what do you most value in a sports car? Speed or drama? Daily usability or occasion? Relaxed fun or intense concentration? If the former, the 996 is your match. If the latter, then like me you will be hard pressed to find a more rewarding car to drive than an air-cooled 911.
By Rami Cerone and Blake Jennings
For those who love to drive, few cars offer more thrills on tight roads than a Porsche 911. While new examples cost more than most of us can afford, older models in reliable condition can be had for less than the average out-the-door cost of a new SUV. The question is: if you have $50,000 to spend on a 911, should you go old-school air-cooled or new-school water-cooled? A sixty degree morning and empty country roads north of Houston gave us the chance to explore this question in matching blue 911’s from each era.
Representing the luftgekühlt era is Blake’s 1985 911 Carrera 3.2 in Prussian Blue with approximately 130,000 miles. This mostly stock example benefits from upgraded torsion bars, a modern-ish air-conditioning, 993-era seats, cat-less sport exhaust, Porsche’s short shift kit, and grippier tires than originally specced. Representing the modern era is Rami’s 80,000 mile 2001 Carrera 4, meaning all-time, all-wheel drive. This Midnight Blue Metallic 996 generation 911 has a short-shift kit from a 997, is lowered, and rides on Michelin Super Sport rubber.
Let’s start with an important caveat. These cars both fit our $50,000 ceiling, but are not equal in price. Blake bought his ‘85 three years ago in the mid-30’s, and it has since risen in value to our ceiling. In contrast, Rami picked up his 996 last month in the low-20’s, an absolute bargain especially for a car with an IMS retrofit and significant preventative maintenance. So yes, both are “affordable” based on average new vehicle prices… but you can have two of Rami’s for one of Blake’s at current prices.
Now that the details are out of the way, let’s get to driving impressions! We took the cars out on our favorite back roads which vary from tight 2nd gear corners to fast 4th gear sweepers and include a range of road types, elevation changes, and tarmac surfaces. After an hour, we swapped keys and tried the same roads again.
Impressions of a 996 Carrera 4:
Rami: This is a solid car and it feels substantial. The seats are narrow, but supportive. The unmistakable sound of a rear-engine Porsche greets you as soon as you turn the key, which is still on the left side of the steering wheel in homage to early Porsche race cars. Visibility is excellent and the clutch is smooth. Power is linear, the torque is noticeable, and the car likes to rev high into its powerband. There is a slight notchiness to the gears, but it is very manageable and takes just a few minutes to become second nature. That said, quick shifts will not be a norm with this car. Once into the corners, the car sticks to the road with zero drama. This particular 996 has been lowered and has thicker sway bars, resulting in very little body roll. The car goes precisely where it is pointed, and the steering wheel provides lots of information about what the front tires are encountering on the road. This is truly a delight to drive, whether it is driven gently or enthusiastically. It does exactly what it’s asked, and feels light and agile while doing it. Once out of the corners and back on the highway, with the windows up and air conditioning blowing, it feels like a grand tourer. The miles flow effortlessly. Wind and road noise are low and the car is planted. Set cruise control and drive hours in comfort, as proven when I drove this car 450 miles back from New Orleans last month.
Blake: My first impression setting out in this particular 996 is that I cannot believe Rami got this car for this price! I expected squeaks and rattles and a sagging headliner. Instead, I found a clean, taught interior where all the buttons and controls still worked. And more impressive, the suspension and driveline felt factory tight, with the exception of excessive play in the gear shift mechanism that can likely be fixed with a couple bushings or cables. Getting out of my ‘85 and into this reminded me how so many people lost the forest for the trees with the 996. Yes, the headlights and interior switchgear still look ungainly in my opinion. But what are those nitpicks in comparison to a twenty-year old chassis that can still offer such poise and speed on twisty roads at a price that rivals a used Camry!?
Now for details. Steering feel is superb, and is benefited in this car by the addition of an aftermarket Momo wheel spaced further towards the driver. The hydraulic steering provides substantial feedback and proper weight for a sports car, though it is not quite as delightful as the non-assisted steering in my ‘85 (but parking lot maneuvers are much easier!) While the aforementioned shifter linkage needs repair, the transmission itself is tight and heel-toe shifting is phenomenally easy, especially in comparison to the 915 box in my ‘85. I actually second guessed myself on my first 3-2 corner-entry downshifts, sure I must still be in neutral because it was simply too easy to rev-match and slide down a gear. The engine is equally good, providing strong torque from midrange and begging you to ring it out. For those used to modern low-lag turbos, this will not have the low-end grunt you expect. You must let the engine breathe and then shift to keep the revs above 3000. These engines do have the potential for catastrophic IMS failures, but this liability can be solved, as it was in this car, which leaves you with a superb and reasonably dependable engine. My only disappointment is that with a stock exhaust, it’s far too quiet for my taste. On the inside, seating is surprisingly tight. This car is larger than my ‘85 but feels noticeably smaller on the inside. That is largely due to the aerodynamic redesign that Porsche implemented with this generation, significantly increasing windshield rake. The effect is that this cabin feels more cave-like than older 911’s. On the upside, wind noise is down and top speed is up. Furthermore, the tighter cabin does mean that every control is within easy reach. Seats and pedals are perfectly positioned and supportive. This is a great place to sit while taking corners fast!
Impressions of an 80’s Carrera
Rami: Interestingly, this cockpit instantly felt more roomy than the 996. The steering wheel is big and the view of the road is commanding due to the small dash and the very thin pillars. Starting the car sounds throaty as this example has an aftermarket exhaust and no catalytic converter. The sound is unmistakable. The clutch pedal is hinged to the ground which feels different the first time your foot presses it, but you adjust quickly and then never notice it again. The shifter is what feels most different from the 996. This is definitely not a fast shifter. It takes effort to put in gear, every gear, every time. Slow shifting makes it more work, but also makes the drive rewarding when you get it right. Acceleration feels great. While not as fast as the 996, it feels fast enough with plenty of torque. Corners are great in this car. There’s little body roll and it sticks to the road with an unmatched steering feel thanks to its lack of power assist. The ride is firm, but very comfortable and it tracks straight and feels solid. Downshifting for corners takes practice and sometimes requires a double clutch press. But this is part of the charm of an older 911. Windows down with the sound of the motor in your ears makes for a very engaging drive.
Blake: My first impression whenever I get into this car is how surprisingly airy the interior feels. This is a small car - the wheelbase is shorter than a Miata. I can reach both door handles easily from the driver’s seat. Yet thanks to the relatively upright windshield that’s positioned close to the driver, along with thin A and B pillars, it feels bright and roomy with excellent visibility in all directions. Second impression comes with a turn of the key. The growl this engine makes is, in my opinion, among the best sounds in automotive history. The lack of water jackets on the cylinders combined with a catless sport exhaust provide enough sound to wake the neighbors. The third impression hits your nose ten seconds after startup: the smell of burning oil. Like most 911’s of this era, the valve guides wear out and allow oil to seep into the cylinders when the car sits. That oil burns off in the first few minutes of driving. I need to fix that, but rebuilds on these engines run in the five-figures, a distinct disadvantage to the ownership experience. Fourth impression as I set off, this transmission takes WORK, as Rami pointed out. For the uninitiated, 911’s used a very old transmission design called the 915 until the 1987 model year when it was replaced by the much more modern, but heavier G50. The 915 has long throws, weak synchros, and no centering spring. While mine benefits from the factory short-shift kit and an aftermarket centering and gate system, it is still very challenging to get into gear. Reverse is non-synchro, so you have to take it very slow. After 130,000 miles, the 2nd through 4th gear synchros have worn, meaning these shifts take precise rev-matching and gentle engagement. Get it wrong and it makes a god-awful racket. Get it right, especially on a high rpm 3-2 downshift into a tight corner and you feel like Aryton Senna. That is the best way I know how to describe this car. It will not tolerate distracted or lazy driving. You must concentrate and work to drive it well. But when you get it right, it’s as if the stars aligned.
Back to our country roads. If you compare this car, and to a lesser extent Rami’s 996, to a modern sports car, one of the primary things you’ll notice is the substantial compliance over rough pavement. This car has relatively large sidewall tires over small diameter wheels, the opposite of sports cars today. Combine that with plenty of suspension travel, and it soaks up asphalt patches, bridge transitions, and camber changes in a way that few modern cars can. The steering also shines on these country roads. With no power assist and a large steering wheel, you can feel every undulation and change in grip. This is especially welcome given an old 911’s unusual weight-transfer dynamics. The engine is fully behind the back wheels, and you feel that far more in this 911 than in Rami’s all-wheel-drive 996. On a gravel strewn corner, his car stayed planted at speed while mine oversteered dramatically. Since I enjoy catching a slide, this was a bonus. But for those who prefer stability over drama, the 996 is a better fit. As for power, this car provides plenty of torque and a willingness to rev, but cannot match the pure speed of modern Porsches. This drivetrain is for those who prefer drama to outright power. Back out on the highway, this car easily kept pace with modern traffic and the 993 seats are among the most comfortable I have sat in. Air conditioning is the weak link in old 911’s, though this particular one benefits from substantial upgrades. While this car is not the effortless cruiser of Rami’s 996, it does not exhaust you or strand you on long trips like so many classic cars.
The verdict.
Rami: It was a perfect day and so much fun to drive these two cars back-to-back. Despite their differences, you can immediately tell one descends from the other thanks to their unmistakable shape. Our little convoy turned heads as the 911 is universally recognized and loved. Now to pick a winner. If I had to have just one car to drive every day, I would choose the 996. Comfortable, great air conditioning, easy clutch and shifter and good sound insulation makes it an easy daily driver that can go anywhere, yet still be fun when the roads get curvy. The air-cooled 911 feels special, but with its heavy shifting and old-school air conditioning, it would be too much for many on the daily commute. That said, you can’t exactly go wrong with either. People around the world praise 911’s of any generation, and drive them daily even with 100K, 200K and more on the odometer. The 911 of any generation was made to be driven, not garaged. So just choose whichever one you personally find more fun to drive. They are also depreciation proof. As long as you buy it right, paying attention to previous maintenance and condition, it is one of the few sports cars that you can drive without the fear of losing money with every passing mile.
Blake: On twisty backroads, you can’t lose no matter which of these cars you choose. I have driven many modern cars, some much faster than either of these. And yet none of them are as enjoyable on tight roads as these. Both are engaging and reward a driver’s skill without compromising comfort and reliability. Your choice will really come down to your personal preferences and needs. Note that neither are practical for a family. The back seats are seats in name only - my kids outgrew them by 10. So realistically, these are both two-seat sports cars. So what do you most value in a sports car? Speed or drama? Daily usability or occasion? Relaxed fun or intense concentration? If the former, the 996 is your match. If the latter, then like me you will be hard pressed to find a more rewarding car to drive than an air-cooled 911.
Last edited by igrip; 02-27-2023 at 01:56 AM.
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