Love Affair is Deteriorating - 996 owner in need of advice
03-01-2023, 06:01 AM
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
Love Affair is Deteriorating - 996 owner in need of advice
I need to vent.
Purchased my ideal 996 4S after much searching. Higher mileage but incredibly well maintained car which was cared for, winterized, and was the perfect daily that could do AX on the weekend and occasional track days. Came with everything I wanted (sans the sunroof delete which is incredibly rare...) in the color I wanted with the right history. Knew there were going to be expensive maintenance hits as the car was purchased with 78K. She's old, it was going to happen, but it seems like it is becoming a windfall. This slew of items has led me to believe I might have to off-load her as the time, money, stress (I don't half-*** any of this type of stuff), and strain are becoming a bit too much to live with amid a very hectic job and family life. This is my second M96 powered car; my first was my loved 987.1 which I tried to locate to buy back, only to learn that it was totaled and now a salvage. Been fortunate enough to own some great DD/track all-stars, but I am thinking I might have bit off more than I can chew and mis-judged this purchase.
Car was purchased in July 2022, driven back east August 2022 knowing that the suspension would likely need a full refresh in 2023. SEP 2022 going in for an alignment after a weird vibration upfront, and a series of events has the car in the shop at my indie (who is incredible) in OCT for the following:
Full suspension refresh - OEM+ / fully Meyle / urethane bushings / B6 dampers
Flex joint replaced
Full fluid drop (everything was dropped, drained and refilled)
Spark plugs
Ignition coils
Filters
Driving in NOV, a piece of debris was ejected off a construction hauler and the car spends a month and a half at one of the areas certified P-car body shops. USAA and the shop go back and forth, and it turns into a "thing". I finally get the car back ready to go and she looks incredible, and drives amazing.
Come FEB, getting ready for AX season, and I notice white smoke, a high pitched whine, and a sweet odor after finally inspecting my car after oddly having to top off oil after 400 miles using nearly a quart of 5W40, and... AOS likely is dead. She is being towed back to my indie today who is going to get on it, and for an additional kick, the passenger seat motor died, making it very hard to get our baby's car seat in and out.
I love the 996 and this is my ideal 911 despite the stigma that thankfully is going away (the GT2 would be amazing to have)... But after seven months of ownership and already in for five figures worth of work, plus the PCCM+ purchase and install, I am feeling the pressure. I am now thinking about bore scoring (this car had no signs with both a PPI from a reputable indie where the car was located and post purchase look-over at my indie), and that I am sitting on some sort of roller which is causing more stress. Not sure if I should cut out and sell, but I have been looking at the Mustang Mach 1 (new and certified pre-owned) that can do DD and weekend work amid cones and long sweeping corners.
Pretty sure there are others out there who are going through this or went through it. What did you end up considering and ultimately doing? What influenced your decision? Again, I finally found the AWD daily with the right mix to AX and track, but now I am even nervous that an AX will send her into the scrap yard and me out nearly all my money that I threw into this. Not to mention the time and, at time, aggravation.
Thanks and appreciate any constructive responses.
Purchased my ideal 996 4S after much searching. Higher mileage but incredibly well maintained car which was cared for, winterized, and was the perfect daily that could do AX on the weekend and occasional track days. Came with everything I wanted (sans the sunroof delete which is incredibly rare...) in the color I wanted with the right history. Knew there were going to be expensive maintenance hits as the car was purchased with 78K. She's old, it was going to happen, but it seems like it is becoming a windfall. This slew of items has led me to believe I might have to off-load her as the time, money, stress (I don't half-*** any of this type of stuff), and strain are becoming a bit too much to live with amid a very hectic job and family life. This is my second M96 powered car; my first was my loved 987.1 which I tried to locate to buy back, only to learn that it was totaled and now a salvage. Been fortunate enough to own some great DD/track all-stars, but I am thinking I might have bit off more than I can chew and mis-judged this purchase.
Car was purchased in July 2022, driven back east August 2022 knowing that the suspension would likely need a full refresh in 2023. SEP 2022 going in for an alignment after a weird vibration upfront, and a series of events has the car in the shop at my indie (who is incredible) in OCT for the following:
Full suspension refresh - OEM+ / fully Meyle / urethane bushings / B6 dampers
Flex joint replaced
Full fluid drop (everything was dropped, drained and refilled)
Spark plugs
Ignition coils
Filters
Driving in NOV, a piece of debris was ejected off a construction hauler and the car spends a month and a half at one of the areas certified P-car body shops. USAA and the shop go back and forth, and it turns into a "thing". I finally get the car back ready to go and she looks incredible, and drives amazing.
Come FEB, getting ready for AX season, and I notice white smoke, a high pitched whine, and a sweet odor after finally inspecting my car after oddly having to top off oil after 400 miles using nearly a quart of 5W40, and... AOS likely is dead. She is being towed back to my indie today who is going to get on it, and for an additional kick, the passenger seat motor died, making it very hard to get our baby's car seat in and out.
I love the 996 and this is my ideal 911 despite the stigma that thankfully is going away (the GT2 would be amazing to have)... But after seven months of ownership and already in for five figures worth of work, plus the PCCM+ purchase and install, I am feeling the pressure. I am now thinking about bore scoring (this car had no signs with both a PPI from a reputable indie where the car was located and post purchase look-over at my indie), and that I am sitting on some sort of roller which is causing more stress. Not sure if I should cut out and sell, but I have been looking at the Mustang Mach 1 (new and certified pre-owned) that can do DD and weekend work amid cones and long sweeping corners.
Pretty sure there are others out there who are going through this or went through it. What did you end up considering and ultimately doing? What influenced your decision? Again, I finally found the AWD daily with the right mix to AX and track, but now I am even nervous that an AX will send her into the scrap yard and me out nearly all my money that I threw into this. Not to mention the time and, at time, aggravation.
Thanks and appreciate any constructive responses.
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igrip (03-07-2023)
Popular Reply
01-07-2024, 01:07 PM
Hello all from Italy,
speaking of 'love affairs' with a 996, I'll tell you my story. After many 911s owned, many more test-driven for motoring magazines and several Porsche books written, I bought in 2016 a perfect car, a 2000 C4 Cabrio with 35,000 miles on the clock, full Porsche service history etc. Perfect, Concours condition. Zenith Blue with Metropol interior and Indigo hood. I didn't drive it often, as I own several more cars so in those six years mileage increased to 44,000 miles, always serviced yearly by Porsche Italia. Then, the 17 May, disaster struck: the garage where I kept the 996 (and many other cars, bikers, audio equipment etc) was flooded and water sumberged the 996 up to the bottom of the steering wheel.
When we were able to tow the cars out of this flooded garage, three days after the flood occurred, I had two possibilities: either save it, at a prevedibly horrendous cost, or sell it as a flooded wreck to some dealer for pennies. If it was a normal second hand car, I'd have chosen the 2nd option. But being a preciously 'concorso' car that I enjoyed a lot during my ownership, I chose the first.and trusted the official Porsche Italy's Classic Centre for the resoration, knowing that the cost of this process would probably be more than the value of the car. But, as I loved that car, I took the plunge.
Porsche was not helpful with the spares; a whopping $6000+ for the ABS pump alone, for example. Six months later the 996 was ready and I took delivery in Padova. OK, the final cost was huge, but, what can I say? I still LOVE that car. So even if a sane person would NEVER have done that, I'm quite proud to be the owner of BH314KP and it works and drives beautifully. I'm happy with that.
My Favourite Cars (stefanopasini.it)
http://www.stefanopasini.it/Porsche_...2023-Flood.htm
The moral is, I guess: if you love the car, keep it. If you don't love her so much after your years of ownership, taillights. I di did it with other beautiful classic cars in the past and it wasn't so painful.
All the best,
Stefano
speaking of 'love affairs' with a 996, I'll tell you my story. After many 911s owned, many more test-driven for motoring magazines and several Porsche books written, I bought in 2016 a perfect car, a 2000 C4 Cabrio with 35,000 miles on the clock, full Porsche service history etc. Perfect, Concours condition. Zenith Blue with Metropol interior and Indigo hood. I didn't drive it often, as I own several more cars so in those six years mileage increased to 44,000 miles, always serviced yearly by Porsche Italia. Then, the 17 May, disaster struck: the garage where I kept the 996 (and many other cars, bikers, audio equipment etc) was flooded and water sumberged the 996 up to the bottom of the steering wheel.
When we were able to tow the cars out of this flooded garage, three days after the flood occurred, I had two possibilities: either save it, at a prevedibly horrendous cost, or sell it as a flooded wreck to some dealer for pennies. If it was a normal second hand car, I'd have chosen the 2nd option. But being a preciously 'concorso' car that I enjoyed a lot during my ownership, I chose the first.and trusted the official Porsche Italy's Classic Centre for the resoration, knowing that the cost of this process would probably be more than the value of the car. But, as I loved that car, I took the plunge.
Porsche was not helpful with the spares; a whopping $6000+ for the ABS pump alone, for example. Six months later the 996 was ready and I took delivery in Padova. OK, the final cost was huge, but, what can I say? I still LOVE that car. So even if a sane person would NEVER have done that, I'm quite proud to be the owner of BH314KP and it works and drives beautifully. I'm happy with that.
My Favourite Cars (stefanopasini.it)
http://www.stefanopasini.it/Porsche_...2023-Flood.htm
The moral is, I guess: if you love the car, keep it. If you don't love her so much after your years of ownership, taillights. I di did it with other beautiful classic cars in the past and it wasn't so painful.
All the best,
Stefano
03-01-2023, 07:45 AM
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My 2 cents: when you get the car back go drive it ........ . Hard ! Find some twisty mountain roads and enjoy . Then take some time to think things over . After that make a decision . Any 20+ year old high end car has the potential to turn into a money pit . It is a gamble and not a good fit for a weak stomach .
I always suggest to a potential Porsche buyer to buy the cleanest one you can find after a PPI . Second suggestion is you better have 5-10k $$$ set aside that you don't mind spending . And with today's prices that is probably not enough .
And after all that it's still a crapshoot if you get a good one or not. A blown engine rebuilt correctly is 25-50k . As the old saying goes if you want to play you gotta pay . On the flip side these cars are VERY rewarding to drive when all is well . My prediction ? I think you will sell the car . Good luck with whatever you decide .
I always suggest to a potential Porsche buyer to buy the cleanest one you can find after a PPI . Second suggestion is you better have 5-10k $$$ set aside that you don't mind spending . And with today's prices that is probably not enough .
And after all that it's still a crapshoot if you get a good one or not. A blown engine rebuilt correctly is 25-50k . As the old saying goes if you want to play you gotta pay . On the flip side these cars are VERY rewarding to drive when all is well . My prediction ? I think you will sell the car . Good luck with whatever you decide .
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03-01-2023, 07:45 AM
#3
Rennlist Member
The car is 20+ years old A/X an old car is going to come with baggage and all the headaches
cut your losses get the mustang it was nice knowing you
cut your losses get the mustang it was nice knowing you
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03-01-2023, 08:02 AM
#4
Rennlist Member
Be glad it's not a boat.
As said, a 20 year old car will need work and these cars are not cheap. You have to accept the risk if you want to play. The discord comes when someone thinks that they will get lucky and not have a plan or financial cushion when things go wrong.
I've had my own share of these issues, but wife andI have both agreed that our car is worth the expense and I am doing more and more of my own maintenance to soften the blows. Nevertheless, I've put more than 143K miles on our car, so the expense kind of smoothes out in the long run.
As said, a 20 year old car will need work and these cars are not cheap. You have to accept the risk if you want to play. The discord comes when someone thinks that they will get lucky and not have a plan or financial cushion when things go wrong.
I've had my own share of these issues, but wife andI have both agreed that our car is worth the expense and I am doing more and more of my own maintenance to soften the blows. Nevertheless, I've put more than 143K miles on our car, so the expense kind of smoothes out in the long run.
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03-01-2023, 08:03 AM
#5
Race Car
A 996 that you rely on for daily transportation that you also rely on others to service and repair is likely going to be a money pit and cause a fair amount of stress. Why you would call it a perfect daily is beyond my ability to reason.
Common repairs that cost the owner that does the repair themselves a couple hundred can easily be a thousand, or 2 with the labor you pay an indie to do the work.
To sum it up - I would not have done what you did if you did not plan to service the car yourself - For a car that you can DD as well as auto X and take to the track in the 996 price range, there are a lot of more reliable and cost effective options.
4S seem to be highly desirable right now, sell it and get the right car.
Common repairs that cost the owner that does the repair themselves a couple hundred can easily be a thousand, or 2 with the labor you pay an indie to do the work.
To sum it up - I would not have done what you did if you did not plan to service the car yourself - For a car that you can DD as well as auto X and take to the track in the 996 price range, there are a lot of more reliable and cost effective options.
4S seem to be highly desirable right now, sell it and get the right car.
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03-01-2023, 08:39 AM
#6
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks for the replies.
We do have a generous four figure annual cushion specifically for the car, and are fortunate to be able to shovel the heavy blows that do come, but I guess it is the unpredictability that is actually at the root of the question. The car, again was PPI'd and post-inspected, and got a solid bills of health. I do my research, and from the vast amount of information I had, extensive service records, asking the right questions, everything checked out. I have a good car.
And understanding the car is about 20 years old, I knew going in there were going to be big ticket items and costs that go with it. We are finally in a place where I can do some of the less intrusive maintenance items, but again, it's a learning process for some of the more intermediate to advanced work that will come with this car. And again, it's not what has been addressed, it's the frequency of every two months there seeming to be a big ticket item. The car is driven daily, hard in an enjoyment sort of way, but by no means abused or thrashed, and I utterly love every second in it to the point why I wonder why I got the PCCM+ when I always turn the audio off to just enjoy the motor.
Car starts getting worked on today; can't wait to get it back... And figure this out.
And I don't want this to be a "nice knowing you" type of deal...
We do have a generous four figure annual cushion specifically for the car, and are fortunate to be able to shovel the heavy blows that do come, but I guess it is the unpredictability that is actually at the root of the question. The car, again was PPI'd and post-inspected, and got a solid bills of health. I do my research, and from the vast amount of information I had, extensive service records, asking the right questions, everything checked out. I have a good car.
And understanding the car is about 20 years old, I knew going in there were going to be big ticket items and costs that go with it. We are finally in a place where I can do some of the less intrusive maintenance items, but again, it's a learning process for some of the more intermediate to advanced work that will come with this car. And again, it's not what has been addressed, it's the frequency of every two months there seeming to be a big ticket item. The car is driven daily, hard in an enjoyment sort of way, but by no means abused or thrashed, and I utterly love every second in it to the point why I wonder why I got the PCCM+ when I always turn the audio off to just enjoy the motor.
Car starts getting worked on today; can't wait to get it back... And figure this out.
And I don't want this to be a "nice knowing you" type of deal...
Last edited by DDR MFS; 03-01-2023 at 08:46 AM.
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03-01-2023, 08:45 AM
#7
Rennlist Member
I think there’s more to this than the car… Therapy may be in order…🤣
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03-01-2023, 09:23 AM
#8
Rennlist Member
Let's level set on a 20+ year old 996.
Unless the previous owner replaced every part and performed every service along the way, you will undoubtedly spend $20-30k over the next few years replacing things. Less if you dont need an indy.
This $20-30k does not take into consideration if you have bore scoring which will cost you an addition $20-40k for an engine rebuild. I highly suggest you get your bores scoped before you spend another penny on the car.
These costs are just a fact of life in keeping a 20+ year old car on the road. You gotta come to grips with this. If not, sell it and buy a Honda.
Unless the previous owner replaced every part and performed every service along the way, you will undoubtedly spend $20-30k over the next few years replacing things. Less if you dont need an indy.
This $20-30k does not take into consideration if you have bore scoring which will cost you an addition $20-40k for an engine rebuild. I highly suggest you get your bores scoped before you spend another penny on the car.
These costs are just a fact of life in keeping a 20+ year old car on the road. You gotta come to grips with this. If not, sell it and buy a Honda.
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03-01-2023, 10:23 AM
#9
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dporto (03-01-2023)
03-01-2023, 10:23 AM
#10
Rennlist Member
So let's now further level set by talking about autocrossing and DEing the car.
You can add a multiplier to the $20-30k of parts and service costs for a refresh to bullet proof the car.
This multiplier includes the cost of additional sets of wheels, tires, brake pads, rotors, oil and brake fluid changes, entry fees and track insurance fees. You will spend a pretty penny on the track. God forbid you are a type "A" personality which means you will spend and do anything to shave off time.
Owning a 996, spending the money to refresh it and making it bullet proof, and then deciding to track it is not for someone on a tight budget.
Kinda important to approach it with realistic expectations. Appreciate the 996 for what it is. An awesome 20 year old car that you will need to sink 20k into to refresh and bullet proof (engine, suspension, brakes, exhaust). This number doesnt count interior and exterior upgrades. The longer you wait to bullet proof, the more little things will break and **** you off.
You are either in or out. Any decision is a good decision.
You can add a multiplier to the $20-30k of parts and service costs for a refresh to bullet proof the car.
This multiplier includes the cost of additional sets of wheels, tires, brake pads, rotors, oil and brake fluid changes, entry fees and track insurance fees. You will spend a pretty penny on the track. God forbid you are a type "A" personality which means you will spend and do anything to shave off time.
Owning a 996, spending the money to refresh it and making it bullet proof, and then deciding to track it is not for someone on a tight budget.
Kinda important to approach it with realistic expectations. Appreciate the 996 for what it is. An awesome 20 year old car that you will need to sink 20k into to refresh and bullet proof (engine, suspension, brakes, exhaust). This number doesnt count interior and exterior upgrades. The longer you wait to bullet proof, the more little things will break and **** you off.
You are either in or out. Any decision is a good decision.
Last edited by GC996; 03-03-2023 at 12:48 PM.
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03-01-2023, 12:14 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
Thanks for the replies.
We do have a generous four figure annual cushion specifically for the car, and are fortunate to be able to shovel the heavy blows that do come, but I guess it is the unpredictability that is actually at the root of the question. The car, again was PPI'd and post-inspected, and got a solid bills of health. I do my research, and from the vast amount of information I had, extensive service records, asking the right questions, everything checked out. I have a good car.
And understanding the car is about 20 years old, I knew going in there were going to be big ticket items and costs that go with it. We are finally in a place where I can do some of the less intrusive maintenance items, but again, it's a learning process for some of the more intermediate to advanced work that will come with this car. And again, it's not what has been addressed, it's the frequency of every two months there seeming to be a big ticket item. The car is driven daily, hard in an enjoyment sort of way, but by no means abused or thrashed, and I utterly love every second in it to the point why I wonder why I got the PCCM+ when I always turn the audio off to just enjoy the motor.
Car starts getting worked on today; can't wait to get it back... And figure this out.
And I don't want this to be a "nice knowing you" type of deal...
We do have a generous four figure annual cushion specifically for the car, and are fortunate to be able to shovel the heavy blows that do come, but I guess it is the unpredictability that is actually at the root of the question. The car, again was PPI'd and post-inspected, and got a solid bills of health. I do my research, and from the vast amount of information I had, extensive service records, asking the right questions, everything checked out. I have a good car.
And understanding the car is about 20 years old, I knew going in there were going to be big ticket items and costs that go with it. We are finally in a place where I can do some of the less intrusive maintenance items, but again, it's a learning process for some of the more intermediate to advanced work that will come with this car. And again, it's not what has been addressed, it's the frequency of every two months there seeming to be a big ticket item. The car is driven daily, hard in an enjoyment sort of way, but by no means abused or thrashed, and I utterly love every second in it to the point why I wonder why I got the PCCM+ when I always turn the audio off to just enjoy the motor.
Car starts getting worked on today; can't wait to get it back... And figure this out.
And I don't want this to be a "nice knowing you" type of deal...
If you haven't already, join PCNA's local club chapter and get to know the people. They can be a valuable resource and help with the ownership/maintenance education. Not discounting the excellent Rennlist members here, but face-to-face contact can some times open some extraordinary doors.
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03-01-2023, 12:44 PM
#12
Honestly, I dont see anything out of the most common maintenance that we all have gone through.
The question is. Did you need to go through the whole suspension refresh, fluids and all of that at once? Probably not. A lot of cars out there just get the basic yearly maintenance and replacements of what is broken
We, in the other side, go crazy with the "preventive maintenance"... which is probably a good approach for avoiding unexpected downtimes but does not guarantee that other parts can fail (as they are 20 years old cars) and it comes to a cost ($$$)
The question is. Did you need to go through the whole suspension refresh, fluids and all of that at once? Probably not. A lot of cars out there just get the basic yearly maintenance and replacements of what is broken
We, in the other side, go crazy with the "preventive maintenance"... which is probably a good approach for avoiding unexpected downtimes but does not guarantee that other parts can fail (as they are 20 years old cars) and it comes to a cost ($$$)
03-01-2023, 12:56 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
Sounds like the only issue is just one of despair. Things go wrong in clumps. At some point you will get this sorted out and look back and wonder what all the fuss was about. Then something else will need attention, but you will be better prepared emotionally once you build some confidence.
If you haven't already, join PCNA's local club chapter and get to know the people. They can be a valuable resource and help with the ownership/maintenance education. Not discounting the excellent Rennlist members here, but face-to-face contact can some times open some extraordinary doors.
If you haven't already, join PCNA's local club chapter and get to know the people. They can be a valuable resource and help with the ownership/maintenance education. Not discounting the excellent Rennlist members here, but face-to-face contact can some times open some extraordinary doors.
In general, if AutoX or tracking with any frequency, I am wary of using a DD for those activities (esp. a 20 year-old German one), unless you do have a backup plan and are ok with costs/inconvenience of having your car down occasionally for maintenance/repair/consumables.
Agree with Marv, things seem to go wrong in clumps. However, once you get over the initial hump of getting it sorted out, I've found the 996 to be pretty reliable.
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03-01-2023, 01:08 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
Resist the temptation to spend money on the pretty things such as exterior and interior parts, suspensiom, exhaust, wheels, aero, shifter kits, etc and spend it on making your engine durable as he'll first. That will cost you ~$15k if you use an indy and half that if you do it yourself.
Then move on to the suspension, exhaust, exterior and interior which are not critical to keeping the power plant running.
Suspension $2.5k - $10k
Exhaust. $2.5k - $10k
IPD/TB. $1k
Software. $1k
Wheels. $2.5k - $5k
Tires. $1.5k
Brakes. $1k - $7k
Aero kit. $6k plus
other. Alot of money
I get it, we all want our cars to look good, but doesnt matter if its engine doesnt run.
Plenty of time to sort out the pretty stuff.
Then move on to the suspension, exhaust, exterior and interior which are not critical to keeping the power plant running.
Suspension $2.5k - $10k
Exhaust. $2.5k - $10k
IPD/TB. $1k
Software. $1k
Wheels. $2.5k - $5k
Tires. $1.5k
Brakes. $1k - $7k
Aero kit. $6k plus
other. Alot of money
I get it, we all want our cars to look good, but doesnt matter if its engine doesnt run.
Plenty of time to sort out the pretty stuff.
Last edited by GC996; 03-01-2023 at 01:19 PM.
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03-01-2023, 01:31 PM
#15
It seems like you've had a string of bad luck lately. Luck can turn around quickly.
Aside from that, seems like the bill for the AOS would be less of a pill to swallow if you hadn't just had the road debris (dumb luck) and full suspension refresh. The only constructive advice I can think of is comprehensive insurance with a $1000 deductible is fairly cheap and usually saves you a bit of money for body work. Stuff like the full suspension refresh should be saved for the end of a year when you have surplus budget and want to treat yourself. If you do it right off the bat, you run the risk of a string of bad luck putting you in the red like this.
I hope it works out for ya. I love my C4S.
Aside from that, seems like the bill for the AOS would be less of a pill to swallow if you hadn't just had the road debris (dumb luck) and full suspension refresh. The only constructive advice I can think of is comprehensive insurance with a $1000 deductible is fairly cheap and usually saves you a bit of money for body work. Stuff like the full suspension refresh should be saved for the end of a year when you have surplus budget and want to treat yourself. If you do it right off the bat, you run the risk of a string of bad luck putting you in the red like this.
I hope it works out for ya. I love my C4S.
Last edited by pulpo; 03-01-2023 at 01:34 PM.
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