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Why did Lake change the oil at 138 miles after the first start on a rebuilt engine?
Why was there less material in the oil on the second change?
lol
I’ll stick with NOT prefilling the filter as recommended by the people with the most experience working on the M96 engine.
And it has nothing to do with idiocracy of the oil being “dirty”.
I like Lake, and I'm sure he knows more about oil and oil formulation than I do, but I would like to ask him some questions about what he posted...Like he mentions the fresh new oil had 52ppm of particles in the oil that were larger then 14 microns,, yet none of that showed on the wear metals or dirt ( silicone) maybe it is included in the additives as big clumps of additives, but then why did it have 331ppm of particles after it was in the motor ( without starting) and still didn't show on the lab report as a wear metal or dirt ( silicone), so what is it.... unobtainium ?
I'd like to ask him some more questions also but I think I already know what his answer will be, and I think he enjoys making videos too much..but with a new engine it is not unusual to have break-in metals in the first couple of oil changes, then have none, that is pretty typical...
Here is a bunch of UOA's see if you can tell which ones were pre-filled vs not pre-filled ? Some are the type that CANNOT be pre-filled ( for those who think that not pre-filling is so so bad..)
see if you can tell which were pre-filled vs which were not pre-filled
Ok as a hint, the 997.2 cannot be pre-filled
Last edited by Porschetech3; 11-13-2023 at 09:41 PM.
So, you would prefer that any of the people you mention perform an oil analysis on your M96, because they are the experts ?
The point of the video was that through analysis of oil samples an unfavorable data point was found and through a change in the oil change process, it was corrected.
What difference does it make what the motor was ?
Because not all motors are the same. Making blanket statements should give you pause... anyway, let's not be petty shall we?
It seems you don't understand Jake's point since you are going back to an unfavorable oil analysis. The video is nonsense.
Because not all motors are the same. Making blanket statements should give you pause... anyway, let's not be petty shall we?
It seems you don't understand Jake's point since you are going back to an unfavorable oil analysis. The video is nonsense.
I'm not really following you. Did I make the blanket statement or was it in the video ? My point was if the guy who made a living analyzing oil and making suggestions to paying customers on how to enhance the longevity of their engines through changes in oil type, routine etc... says... I didn't like what I saw in this analysis so I made a change to the system and the measurement of that change showed an improvement - many people here have been trusting this guys analysis for years, so why is it now nonsense ? Is all the other advice he gave through his oil analysis nonsense as well ? I don't see how that benefits him, or his reputation to post nonsense.
As to why the specific engine doesn't matter. The data doesn't know what type of engine is producing it, the data, testing, results are what they are.
As far as Jakes point, yeah... I don't know what you're getting at there.
I'm not saying do one thing or do another thing... I know what I did and it seemed to work OK for me. Seems as though others do it different, and it seems to work OK for them. I just find it interesting that people are so quick to say the guy who everyone looked at for answers on oil now doesn't know what he's talking about or infer he's doing it for the views.
Did you watch the video at the time stamp I provided? He is talking about his boxster engine.
It does sound like the first two times after rebuild he did not prefill.
It would not have mattered if Lake had pre-filled on his brand new engine. You can "prime" and engine to completely get ALL the air out of the oiling system before starting and you will still get break-in wear metals .That is the reason to change oil after 50 miles then 500 miles on new rebuilt engines....no matter what you do...new parts have to wear-in...
Last edited by Porschetech3; 11-13-2023 at 10:42 PM.
Something about oil that brings the best and worst out of us.
It's impossible to prefill my GT3 engine's oil filter. I've changed my oil every 5 to 6K miles without pouring new oil anywhere but the oil fill tube. My engine has more than 152K miles on it with no issues. I always spend my time driving, not fretting.
Additionally, even if the M96 engine is different, most oil changes take place shortly after the engine was run, so there is still lubricant coating the critical parts anyway. But do what makes you happy.
I'm not really following you. Did I make the blanket statement or was it in the video ? My point was if the guy who made a living analyzing oil and making suggestions to paying customers on how to enhance the longevity of their engines through changes in oil type, routine etc... says... I didn't like what I saw in this analysis so I made a change to the system and the measurement of that change showed an improvement - many people here have been trusting this guys analysis for years, so why is it now nonsense ? Is all the other advice he gave through his oil analysis nonsense as well ? I don't see how that benefits him, or his reputation to post nonsense.
As to why the specific engine doesn't matter. The data doesn't know what type of engine is producing it, the data, testing, results are what they are.
As far as Jakes point, yeah... I don't know what you're getting at there.
I'm not saying do one thing or do another thing... I know what I did and it seemed to work OK for me. Seems as though others do it different, and it seems to work OK for them. I just find it interesting that people are so quick to say the guy who everyone looked at for answers on oil now doesn't know what he's talking about or infer he's doing it for the views.
Not looking to bicker here -- it was Lake's video making the blanket statement or at least not being clear that there could be caveats IMHO.
Again I don't want to bicker but your statements indicate that you don't at least understand Jake's points -- be them right or wrong. His point is that what is unique about the M96 is where the pump is placed in regard to the oil level in the engine. It is a miscalculation to think that all engines are the same when in fact it is an extremely important variable for several reasons.
Lake is excellent and I like him a lot, he knows tribology very well. But I had a well documented issue with his data years ago that I was correct about and they made a mistake........ and we don't have to get into that again.
I think the more important thing than pre filling or not is to doing 2-3 quick turn overs of the engine to build pressure. I believe this is more important on the larger spin filters also... It takes a lot less time for pressure to build and the light sometimes never comes on if this is done right. Just my opinion..
I'd like to ask him some more questions also but I think I already know what his answer will be, and I think he enjoys making videos too much..but with a new engine it is not unusual to have break-in metals in the first couple of oil changes, then have none, that is pretty typical...
I (finally) just finished watching the video. I like Lake too, but that voice... let's just say I prefer to take him in small doses. Anyway. That's not the point of my post. My point ties in with what you say above.
tldr; Lake's Boxster testing was incomplete and therefore inconclusive.
He hypothesized that not prefilling caused bearing material to appear in the oil samples. A fair hypothesis given the evidence at hand. So he prefilled, tested again, and presto, no bearing material. He then concluded that prefilling prevented bearing material from being present. However, as you mention above it was a new motor and a few bits of bearing aren't unexpected; in other words, there is at least one other plausible explanation for the result than the one in Lake's conclusion. To support his conclusion he would need to do another series where the filter is not prefilled.
I (finally) just finished watching the video. I like Lake too, but that voice... let's just say I prefer to take him in small doses. Anyway. That's not the point of my post. My point ties in with what you say above.
tldr; Lake's Boxster testing was incomplete and therefore inconclusive.
He hypothesized that not prefilling caused bearing material to appear in the oil samples. A fair hypothesis given the evidence at hand. So he prefilled, tested again, and presto, no bearing material. He then concluded that prefilling prevented bearing material from being present. However, as you mention above it was a new motor and a few bits of bearing aren't unexpected; in other words, there is at least one other plausible explanation for the result than the one in Lake's conclusion. To support his conclusion he would need to do another series where the filter is not prefilled.
He actually said he did two without prefilling and the third with prefill had zero.
My view is that it doesn't matter whether you pre-fill or not for routine oil changes. In some engines you may get to higher oil pressure faster (some slower). Way too many design differences/variables to generate a blanket statement. The critical scenario is initial start-up on a new M96 engine build where the oil supply channels from the oil cooler to the main bearings are dry. Jake has tested this specific scenario and determined it takes 3-4x longer for oil to reach the bearings with a pre-filled filter. This can result in damage to the #7 main, which leads to starvation of the #6 rod bearing and a subsequent spun rod bearing within 40-100 miles. There are probably also builds out there that did not experience bearing failure while pre-filling the filter, but that likely introduces additional variables (assembly lube vs grease, were the crank carrier and main bearings left untouched, use of oil priming tank, etc.).
From my hands-on M96 engine building experience:
Pre-filled oil filter: spun rod bearing at 70 miles
Dry oil filter: 3000+ miles (and counting)
FWIW I do testing and data analysis of extremely complex and expensive systems for a living. My sample size of two is not statistically significant, but good luck finding someone willing to spend $20k+ per data point.
The video from Lake that I watched shows him testing time to achieve oil pressure in a non-M96 engine, and discussion of wear metals in back-to-back oil changes of his recently built M96. Let me know if there's a more relevant video that I missed. I don't recall him mentioning the state of the oil filter on initial start-up of that engine, but I find it hard to draw anything meaningful from that video.
From the prospective of an M96 specific business (engine building, parts supply, product development, etc), the recommendation to not pre-fill makes sense to me when you consider the following generalized possible results:
Option A: May provide benefit under general circumstances, but introduces risk of critical failure under very specific circumstances.
Option B: Eliminates risk of critical failure under very specific circumstances, but may not provide additional benefit under general circumstances.
Did you watch the video at the time stamp I provided? He is talking about his boxster engine.
It does sound like the first two times after rebuild he did not prefill.
Apologies, I saw the V8 in the video and missed the Boxster part at the beginning of the 6.5-min mark. Whoops. Now I see why this thread exists. Huge Fail on my part in not RTFM!!
Last edited by Mike Murphy; 11-14-2023 at 01:31 PM.
Skimming this thread, is there a distinction if pre-filling or not pre-filling the oil filter applies to those doing a routine oil change vs first oil fill on a newly built engine? Seems like some folks are chiming in saying it's fine to do during a normal oil change while Yaz has had bad experience with it but on a freshly built motor that never had a drop of oil in it before. Or maybe it doesn't matter ....
11-13-2023, 09:05 PM
