IMS bearing replacement

[1999Porsche911]

Originally Posted by Giacomo

Should this procedure be viewed as risk reduction or actually as insurance?

You forgot "unnecessary" and "paranoid".

[deckman]

How about trying to avoid to keep paying for a leaky IMS seal? How many times would it take before you decide its time to do something about it other than just keep paying to have it fixed?

[ivangene]

hold on - IMO with my car this is just a good idea.... since it CAN be done - I will do it at a convient time - I just changed out the front hub on my suburban and I can tell you that bearing went from good to really bad - really quick!!

My motor has a lot of miles and if I go in to swap the clutch, this bearing is coming out and being replaced - end of it.... its not parinoid, its just a really good idea FOR MY KIND OF THINKING - I really dont care if no one else in the world changes thiers, I am changing mine

I know you had like 3 RMS/IMS seals replaced, I dont know why....I dont know what you consider a leak.... for many... one drop is a leak, for others a few drops a month is OK...this is NOT that type of issue....if this thing goes its a BIG DEAL !! if a seal leaks a drop a week... add a drop of oil and wash the bottom of the motor

<steps off box>

[deckman]

Well for me it's also a matter of peace of mind in addition to $$ sunk. An IMS seal is not supposed to leak and it can be a precursor to failure. I can fix the leaks as they occur since one that does not leak is less likely to fail or try to stop them from occurring in the future. As far as I can tell the IMSR offers the best hope for that. Not everyone is in my boat, I understand that. I just don't like being labeled paranoid about this.

I can afford the $2K for this fix, but my wife would have my head if I presented her with a $15K engine replacement bill. So it's also about self preservation

Either that or I sell and get a car that has the GT1 engine.

[Jake Raby]

Lets just say that the majority of the IMSR procedures I have carried out have given us some of the best testimonials in the history of my company. Its fairly difficult (generally) to exceed the expectations of a discerning owner when applying a preventive procedure thats not cheap.

These owners have driven or shipped their car from various parts of the country to have work done that doesn't give them any added performance... They never feel or see the difference the IMSR affords their engine.

Amazingly, they are among the happiest group of people I have ever worked with after the fact.

[1999Porsche911]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

Lets just say that the majority of the IMSR procedures I have carried out have given us some of the best testimonials in the history of my company. Its fairly difficult (generally) to exceed the expectations of a discerning owner when applying a preventive procedure thats not cheap.

These owners have driven or shipped their car from various parts of the country to have work done that doesn't give them any added performance... They never feel or see the difference the IMSR affords their engine.

Amazingly, they are among the happiest group of people I have ever worked with after the fact.

My point is, the fact that there is such a low statistical risk for a bearing failure, why would anyone waste their time and money, baring any evidence of impending failure, on such a mod? A few dozen or even a few hundred suspected bad bearings is hardly a risk people should be worried about.

Fear is a big driver of many unnecessary mods. I suggest that people just enjoy their car and leave the fear in the garage. For those cars experiencing IMS problems, your mod sounds like a good choice.

[Jake Raby]

The main problem lies in the fact that other than a slight bit of oil leakage and maybe a rattle 2 minutes before total failure, there are no symptoms of the IMS syndrome.

One of my clients who is a Neurosurgeon described the failure of his engine as an "Aneurism" because he was driving fine one second, the next second the engine was dead.

We have been able to save a number of engines that were caught early on with failures that had not yet scattered parts all over the interior of the engine. These are few and far between because when people hear noises they immediately try to limp the car home or to the shop to save a tow bill... That money they attempted to save costs a lot of them 15,000.00+ when the failure has it's grand finale. IF they would have stopped and shut the engine off we could have intervened and saved the engine before total catastrophe.

I have a good candidate on the way now that was shut down just soon enough that we can hopefully save it.. The engine passed a leak down test with no bent valves and it seems that the oil sump, pre-filter and primary filter protected the engine from foreign object debris from the failure well.

I appreciate being able to save engines that have failed more than doing preventives.. If only more people paid attention to their engines and weren't bullheaded about trying to "limp home" we'd be able to save many, many more.

IF you hear a noise you must understand that IF that noise is emanating from the IMS that the life of your engine can be measured in seconds.

I agree about enjoying the car- thats the only thing you can do if you choose not to elect for IMSR procedures as a preventive.. Enjoy it till the last second you can and don't let it worry you.

Just pay attention.

Attached is a pic of the engine thats heading our way for salvation. Its a rare case that didn't experience any secondary failures after the IMS bearing imploded. I'll have to cut this bearing race out with procedures that Porsche would cringe at, but I will save the engine.

[jyoteen]

Originally Posted by 1999Porsche911

My point is, the fact that there is such a low statistical risk for a bearing failure, why would anyone waste their time and money, baring any evidence of impending failure, on such a mod? A few dozen or even a few hundred suspected bad bearings is hardly a risk people should be worried about.

Fear is a big driver of many unnecessary mods. I suggest that people just enjoy their car and leave the fear in the garage. For those cars experiencing IMS problems, your mod sounds like a good choice.

well, your point in theory sounds ok, in reality, when one's engine lets go just idling or tooling along, and THEN you discover you're faced with a $20K bill on a $35K car, I'd hope the 'expense' and 'fear' may be well worth it.

To me, $1K sounds a WHOLE lot better than $20K.

[Jake Raby]

The older cars are now "totalled" if they experience an engine failure because the engine cost more than the car is worth.

The engine is too time consuming to assemble to ever complete corretcly for a lesser price than is currently offered. Trying to accomplish this cheaper simply creates more problems with corners being cut.

[jyoteen]

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

The older cars are now "totalled" if they experience an engine failure because the engine cost more than the car is worth.

The engine is too time consuming to assemble to ever complete corretcly for a lesser price than is currently offered. Trying to accomplish this cheaper simply creates more problems with corners being cut.

I would never think that I could actually approach my auto insurance with such a claim. Although, frankly that's only because I've never heard of such a thing.

In my case, at 90K miles, while I love the car, I would refuse to spend $20K salvaging it. It's just a car. I can easily move on with that kind of cost associated in keeping the thing alive.

I will say that I guess I am "lucky" that mine was a valve sprint/valve instead of the bottom end, so that's enabling me to proactively chaning the IMS bearing and other stuff so I can get more enjoyment from the car.

[1999Porsche911]

So, is it safe to assume, to use Jake's analogy of an aneurysm, that the people who are unnecessarily getting their bearing replaced are also getting a full heart and artery scan on a regular basis and replace any, less than perfect portions with new graphs? I mean, there is a higher percentage of people in the US who have unruptured aneurysms than Porsche's that have a failing IMS?

A lot of overkill and fear mongering is you ask me. But, millions have wasted money on penis enlargement pills, too.

[manalex]

I am a bit concerned but do have some questions I hope someone can answer:

Just to be clear, which engines are most susceptible to this failure? Is it just the 3.4L, or is the 3.6L also at risk? Are there versions of either that are more (or less) susceptible to this failure? Is this unique to the 996, or can other models have similar risks; 986, 996TT, GT3, etc.

I understand that you really can't tell if an IMS is bad until its been removed from the engine-is that correct? If it is, I would like to ask Jake for some insight. Given that you have likley performed more of these procedures than anyone else, in your opinion what percentage of those that were replaced actually exhibited enough degredation to lead to failure? In your opinion, is this not an issue of "if" , but rather of "when" it will happen. Not trying to put you on the spot, just trying to get a better idea what the risks actually are.

Based on what I've read thus far, I'm likely to have the IMSR completed, but I was never really able to find the answers to the questions above in anything I've read to-date.

TIA

[Jake Raby]

Just to be clear, which engines are most susceptible to this failure? Is it just the 3.4L, or is the 3.6L also at risk?

ALL M96 engines are at risk. I field calls from people with most every year and model of M96 equipped engines weekly.. **most** 3.6 engines have the weakest of all bearings installed, known as the "single row" bearing. The syndrome can occur with any year or any model.

The engines manufactured post 2006 have an entirely different bearing that can't be serviced at all, because it can't be removed from the engine due to it's size. These are now starting to fail, but most are silenced by the warranty.

Are there versions of either that are more (or less) susceptible to this failure? Is this unique to the 996, or can other models have similar risks; 986, 996TT, GT3, etc.

The GT2, GT3 and Turbo use an entirely different engine. These engines still have an IMS, but it is the same as was found in the 964 aircooled engines. These have plain bearings, not roller bearings and they do not fail. Do not confuse ANY aspect of the standard M96 engine with any of the GT series engines- they share nothing in common.

Boxsters and 996s both suffer the IMS syndrome. We field more calls from Boxster owners because there are more of them on the street.

I understand that you really can't tell if an IMS is bad until its been removed from the engine-is that correct?

Yes, or until it fails completely. I know the sounds that they make when they are starting to go south. Last month I saved one that was going south and had started to spin inside the IMS tube. The only thing holding that one in place was the internal snap ring because the factory bearing was .0015 too small for the shaft!

If it is, I would like to ask Jake for some insight. Given that you have likley performed more of these procedures than anyone else, in your opinion what percentage of those that were replaced actually exhibited enough degredation to lead to failure?

I stay away from percentages and absolute terms because none of those exist in a mechanical world where anything can happen for any reason at any given time.

Lets just say this: Once the bearing begins to degrade it's internal clearances are effected. When this occurs its a fairly quick progression from "about to fail" to "failed". I have seen some engines die from materials that were ingested into other critical clearances that came from an IMS bearing that was heading south, but hadn't reached a level of total failure as of yet.

Long story short, when the bearing begins to degrade it doesn't last long enough to be diagnosed most of the time...

One instance was an Owner who heard a noise in his engine at start up that hadn't been there.. It was an Anniversary Edition with an X51 package. He stopped the car, drove another car and then came back later that day to see of the noise persisted; it did. He then called the Porsche Dealership and told them that he had "An IMS bearing starting to fail". They sent out a Technician (since they were slow) to pick the car up and instead of winching the car onto the roll back the tech cranked the car and drove it onto the truck. Bang, end of story- there goes 20 grand.

The Owner did the right thing and he had read about sounds here on rennlist and other forums, the driver of the tow truck needed a good slap for starting the engine...

In your opinion, is this not an issue of "if" , but rather of "when" it will happen. Not trying to put you on the spot, just trying to get a better idea what the risks actually are.

No one knows what the risks are.. I am one of a very, very small group of people that have jumped into these issues outside the factory and I only see a small portion of the big picture. I will say that in two days I have received 5 emails from those with IMS bearing failures, thats more than I have received in the past week from people wanting to apply our technology as a preventive.

Based on what I've read thus far, I'm likely to have the IMSR completed, but I was never really able to find the answers to the questions above in anything I've read to-date.

You are less than 60 miles from me.. You should schedule a time to see these parts and how they work first hand. The majority of our clients are several states away, not able to take advantage of this.

I am not trying to instill fear in anyone, merely stating the facts that I see on a near daily basis. If more people understand why these bearings fail and what the symptoms are the more engines we'll be able to save.

[blinkwatt]

Yo Jakes, what does the impending IMS bearing failure noise sound like? Have any sound clips?

Thanks,
Robert

[RF5BPilot]

Let me restate a question that was posed earlier, and I'm not sure that was answered.

Is the retrofit actually a solution? Or does it just reduce the chance that a failure will happen?

Are you contracting with regional shops to do these installs?