996 Horror Story- A Hard Lesson Learned and Advice Needed
01-27-2010, 11:33 PM
#34
I laughed as i read your post as you have a way with words. 
It's just a very bad situation and you can only laugh at it else you will go nuts. You're making payments on a halo car that you know's been used and abused like a rag doll and for this I am very sorry.
This is an expensive and really crappy lesson learned because trying to resell this even with a sorted out drivetrain will be tough.
Thank you for sharing a story that is tough to tell. I give you props.
It's just a very bad situation and you can only laugh at it else you will go nuts. You're making payments on a halo car that you know's been used and abused like a rag doll and for this I am very sorry.
This is an expensive and really crappy lesson learned because trying to resell this even with a sorted out drivetrain will be tough.
Thank you for sharing a story that is tough to tell. I give you props.
01-28-2010, 12:55 AM
#35
Cruisin'
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PPI- Take it as a lesson perspective p-car owners
Yep, pretty much sums it up, which is why I have no problem putting it out there as an example and poking fun at myself in the process.. know it all young guys think that they have a handle on everything (until they have to buy a new motor for their Porsche). Stupid is as stupid does.
It is indeed the mentioned Erik Nordstorm in the booming metropolis of Harrisburg, PA.. seemed like a nice guy, little did I know that he would end up not using any lubrication in the long run. All I have to say is Karma is a ****..
The best part about it is that when I called him about the situation when I originally thought that the problem was a RMS/IMS he stressed that I should commit insurance fraud (not that the thought didn't cross my mind) at that point as it would be "expensive". Alas, being a man of integrity I can't, and can only hope that he is involved in an unfortunate mishap involving a tire iron and his *********.
So Anyconartistdouchebag, hindsight is 20/20 and I have come to terms with this situation becoming one of the most expensive lessons of my life (albeit I have not had a divorce yet, but my friends tell me it's AWESOME). I've come to the conclusion from just driving my car the few hundred tame miles that I am going to persevere and keep her (BTW those engines in CO sound pretty nice ATT.. LMK specifics via PM). I honestly have no shame in posting pics as it really is a beautiful car and drives nicely so long that you don't run the **** out of it and are mindful of your RPMs (It beats driving a Honda like a grandma).
If anything at this point this situation has made me a little more cognisant of technical issues and diagnostics with the vehicle which is always a plus. So to delve furthur into this for the tech connoisseurs-
The vibration seems to be apparent even when the car is off however rolling.. i.e. 60 mph turn off the key when the vibration is still apparent and it stays.
The misfire occurs no matter whether the coils are swapped, or brand new. Yesterday Tom swapped coils from the two that would never throw the codes to the two that were most problematic to no avail. We even threw a new coil into the mix on the worst offender (5) again, to no avail.
It seems that the ECU is sensing the vibration as a misfire as all coils are checking out OK per Tom. If the car is driven at 3K sustained the CEL will blink and cut out a cyl. Following turning off the car, the CEL will be steady, however the car will run nicely until the vibration starts again.
It does appear that the entire transmission (clutch, flywheel, etc..) are brand new and were quality checked by Tom. The Oil pan, and one of the lower control arms were replaced as well.
I have extreme faith in Advanced Auto's capabilities, however even Tom (the owner) is dumbfounded at this point (as he served as a catalyst for this posting as well). It has been expensive however not as bad as one would expect in this situation while having the car in the shop for the better part of a year.
So tonight I raise my beer boot to those whom have replied, expressed sympathy, poked fun, and exemplified that there are individuals that empathize with a fellow owner in trouble. Thank you for the advice and please keep the hypothesis rolling in.. after all the boot is half full tonight! Remember as Dr. Mitch said "PPI is much more valuable than what your PP thinks!"
Regards,
Rich
The best part about it is that when I called him about the situation when I originally thought that the problem was a RMS/IMS he stressed that I should commit insurance fraud (not that the thought didn't cross my mind) at that point as it would be "expensive". Alas, being a man of integrity I can't, and can only hope that he is involved in an unfortunate mishap involving a tire iron and his *********.
So Anyconartistdouchebag, hindsight is 20/20 and I have come to terms with this situation becoming one of the most expensive lessons of my life (albeit I have not had a divorce yet, but my friends tell me it's AWESOME). I've come to the conclusion from just driving my car the few hundred tame miles that I am going to persevere and keep her (BTW those engines in CO sound pretty nice ATT.. LMK specifics via PM). I honestly have no shame in posting pics as it really is a beautiful car and drives nicely so long that you don't run the **** out of it and are mindful of your RPMs (It beats driving a Honda like a grandma).
If anything at this point this situation has made me a little more cognisant of technical issues and diagnostics with the vehicle which is always a plus. So to delve furthur into this for the tech connoisseurs-
The vibration seems to be apparent even when the car is off however rolling.. i.e. 60 mph turn off the key when the vibration is still apparent and it stays.
The misfire occurs no matter whether the coils are swapped, or brand new. Yesterday Tom swapped coils from the two that would never throw the codes to the two that were most problematic to no avail. We even threw a new coil into the mix on the worst offender (5) again, to no avail.
It seems that the ECU is sensing the vibration as a misfire as all coils are checking out OK per Tom. If the car is driven at 3K sustained the CEL will blink and cut out a cyl. Following turning off the car, the CEL will be steady, however the car will run nicely until the vibration starts again.
It does appear that the entire transmission (clutch, flywheel, etc..) are brand new and were quality checked by Tom. The Oil pan, and one of the lower control arms were replaced as well.
I have extreme faith in Advanced Auto's capabilities, however even Tom (the owner) is dumbfounded at this point (as he served as a catalyst for this posting as well). It has been expensive however not as bad as one would expect in this situation while having the car in the shop for the better part of a year.
So tonight I raise my beer boot to those whom have replied, expressed sympathy, poked fun, and exemplified that there are individuals that empathize with a fellow owner in trouble. Thank you for the advice and please keep the hypothesis rolling in.. after all the boot is half full tonight! Remember as Dr. Mitch said "PPI is much more valuable than what your PP thinks!"
Regards,
Rich
01-28-2010, 03:07 AM
#36
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I'm actually really interested in what this vibration problem is now... When you turn the car off at 60mph, is the clutch out, and the transmission in gear? In other words, is the engine still rotating? Related question, is your vibration there off power also, and not just under acceleration?
01-28-2010, 10:02 AM
#37
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Rich,
I would have the frame checked out before this car ends up costing you like a divorce. It sounds like the frame may have been bent or a bad wheel or suspect suspension parts from the accident if you are experiencing vibrations.
I would have the frame checked out before this car ends up costing you like a divorce. It sounds like the frame may have been bent or a bad wheel or suspect suspension parts from the accident if you are experiencing vibrations.
01-28-2010, 10:29 AM
#38
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I was thinking on the vibration too...
one or more of the cam chains being off timing was my thought.. with the vario cam working fine on the center but when reaching higher rpms and switching to the larger more advanced (timing) lobes there is something off which causes the DME to try and compensate the fuel mixture throwing CEL because it is out of limits and the vibration from wrong valve timing on one bank???
OR the vario cam on one bank isnt engaging at the same time as the other bank so you are running the small lobes on one side and the large lobes on the other???
sorry I just read where the vibration is even with the car OFF?? in Neutral ??? just rolling??
confirm please - or was it key off and motor spinning, still in gear?
one or more of the cam chains being off timing was my thought.. with the vario cam working fine on the center but when reaching higher rpms and switching to the larger more advanced (timing) lobes there is something off which causes the DME to try and compensate the fuel mixture throwing CEL because it is out of limits and the vibration from wrong valve timing on one bank???
OR the vario cam on one bank isnt engaging at the same time as the other bank so you are running the small lobes on one side and the large lobes on the other???
sorry I just read where the vibration is even with the car OFF?? in Neutral ??? just rolling??
confirm please - or was it key off and motor spinning, still in gear?
01-28-2010, 12:12 PM
#39
Cruisin'
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Wheels have been swapped for new ones, frame looks 100% (this occurs even while the car is not moving and you accel. and hold @ 3K.
one or more of the cam chains being off timing was my thought.. with the vario cam working fine on the center but when reaching higher rpms and switching to the larger more advanced (timing) lobes there is something off which causes the DME to try and compensate the fuel mixture throwing CEL because it is out of limits and the vibration from wrong valve timing on one bank???
OR the vario cam on one bank isnt engaging at the same time as the other bank so you are running the small lobes on one side and the large lobes on the other???
sorry I just read where the vibration is even with the car OFF?? in Neutral ??? just rolling??
confirm please - or was it key off and motor spinning, still in gear?
Yep. So in other words If you are driving down the road at 60 mph, turn off the key, depress the clutch, let rpms go to Idle, then let out the clutch in say 4th gear, the vibration is still there.
Yes and yes, the vibration is still there when you are not accelerating and just holding @ 3k when the car is not moving as well as when the car is off and moving and clutch is out (see above). Throws codes like it was it's job.
one or more of the cam chains being off timing was my thought.. with the vario cam working fine on the center but when reaching higher rpms and switching to the larger more advanced (timing) lobes there is something off which causes the DME to try and compensate the fuel mixture throwing CEL because it is out of limits and the vibration from wrong valve timing on one bank???
OR the vario cam on one bank isnt engaging at the same time as the other bank so you are running the small lobes on one side and the large lobes on the other???
sorry I just read where the vibration is even with the car OFF?? in Neutral ??? just rolling??
confirm please - or was it key off and motor spinning, still in gear?
I'm actually really interested in what this vibration problem is now... When you turn the car off at 60mph, is the clutch out, and the transmission in gear? In other words, is the engine still rotating? Related question, is your vibration there off power also, and not just under acceleration?
01-28-2010, 12:28 PM
#40
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so the viration is engine - I just got lost for a minute (seeing how you can duplicate it standing still)
timing chains / variocam issue IMO
you said the oil pan is JB welded? have you removed it to look deeper inside? any obvioous sings of trauma
timing chains / variocam issue IMO
you said the oil pan is JB welded? have you removed it to look deeper inside? any obvioous sings of trauma
01-28-2010, 12:40 PM
#41
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Hard to imagine it being a timing or variocam issue if the vibration is still there under deceleration, or with the engine off. Sounds like it's in the reciprocating assembly. If compression is good, I'd have to imagine it's in the flywheel, perhaps a broken dual mass. It sounds like somebody has not been around the engine w/a stethoscope? Of course that wouldn't really explain the codes that are being thrown.
I'm almost tempted to fly out there and look at it in the flesh just out of personal curiosity, if he'd let me... -I've built many engines in my day, professionally worked as a mechanic/track car prep, instruct at HPDEs blah blah. I'd at least like to talk on the phone, PM me if you'd at least waste a few minutes explaining the situation over the phone!
I'm almost tempted to fly out there and look at it in the flesh just out of personal curiosity, if he'd let me... -I've built many engines in my day, professionally worked as a mechanic/track car prep, instruct at HPDEs blah blah. I'd at least like to talk on the phone, PM me if you'd at least waste a few minutes explaining the situation over the phone!
01-28-2010, 12:57 PM
#42
Cruisin'
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Hard to imagine it being a timing or variocam issue if the vibration is still there under deceleration, or with the engine off. Sounds like it's in the reciprocating assembly. If compression is good, I'd have to imagine it's in the flywheel, perhaps a broken dual mass. It sounds like somebody has not been around the engine w/a stethoscope? Of course that wouldn't really explain the codes that are being thrown.
I'm almost tempted to fly out there and look at it in the flesh just out of personal curiosity, if he'd let me... -I've built many engines in my day, professionally worked as a mechanic/track car prep, instruct at HPDEs blah blah. I'd at least like to talk on the phone, PM me if you'd at least waste a few minutes explaining the situation over the phone!
I'm almost tempted to fly out there and look at it in the flesh just out of personal curiosity, if he'd let me... -I've built many engines in my day, professionally worked as a mechanic/track car prep, instruct at HPDEs blah blah. I'd at least like to talk on the phone, PM me if you'd at least waste a few minutes explaining the situation over the phone!
.Thank you for the help guys, I really appreciate it.
01-28-2010, 12:58 PM
#43
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Wheels have been swapped for new ones, frame looks 100% (this occurs even while the car is not moving and you accel. and hold @ 3K.
Yep. So in other words If you are driving down the road at 60 mph, turn off the key, depress the clutch, let rpms go to Idle, then let out the clutch in say 4th gear, the vibration is still there.
Yes and yes, the vibration is still there when you are not accelerating and just holding @ 3k when the car is not moving as well as when the car is off and moving and clutch is out (see above). Throws codes like it was it's job.
Yep. So in other words If you are driving down the road at 60 mph, turn off the key, depress the clutch, let rpms go to Idle, then let out the clutch in say 4th gear, the vibration is still there.
Yes and yes, the vibration is still there when you are not accelerating and just holding @ 3k when the car is not moving as well as when the car is off and moving and clutch is out (see above). Throws codes like it was it's job.
What is the wear like on the tires? You probably can't tell with the miles on the rubber yet...
01-28-2010, 01:23 PM
#44
Drifting
If anything good has/will come out of this TR - it's reafirmed that while a PPI is not insurance that something will not go wrong and you will avoid it if you got a PPI, it's at least better then flipping a coin and 'hoping' you got a good car.
And the follow on issue of this vibration and what ever you discover is causing it - is entertaining (sorry) in a train wreak, gotta find out if they died or something kinda way. Damn 'rubbernecker's' I hear you say!
Hopefully you might get some good news in that (and I'm hoping) it's one of these - I can't believe that little thing (inexpensive) was causing all of this trouble. Brightside mode - guilty as charged.
And the follow on issue of this vibration and what ever you discover is causing it - is entertaining (sorry) in a train wreak, gotta find out if they died or something kinda way. Damn 'rubbernecker's' I hear you say!
Hopefully you might get some good news in that (and I'm hoping) it's one of these - I can't believe that little thing (inexpensive) was causing all of this trouble. Brightside mode - guilty as charged.
Last edited by Torontoworker; 01-28-2010 at 01:25 PM. Reason: Spelling... sigh.
01-28-2010, 01:25 PM
#45
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Ahmet could be closer - if the tranny was repaced maybe the flywheel is bent?
I thought you said you pulled the tranny out? - if not might be a place to look -
I don't see how you can dismiss timing chains due to decelleration vibration? If the lifters are not all running on the same part of the cam (left and right) I am guessing it will vibrate like hell... And if someone was dinking around with things I believe chain timing can get screwed up if (ask those who have posted threads of IMS retrofits and having issues)
just read were the 968 varicam is engaged from 1500-5500 rpm... anyone know what rpm's the 996 is....... I saw once it was 3200 and since then have not been able to re-confirm ----- if it is 1500 range then I am off base on some thinking (like that will be a big surprise)
I thought you said you pulled the tranny out? - if not might be a place to look -
I don't see how you can dismiss timing chains due to decelleration vibration? If the lifters are not all running on the same part of the cam (left and right) I am guessing it will vibrate like hell... And if someone was dinking around with things I believe chain timing can get screwed up if (ask those who have posted threads of IMS retrofits and having issues)
just read were the 968 varicam is engaged from 1500-5500 rpm... anyone know what rpm's the 996 is....... I saw once it was 3200 and since then have not been able to re-confirm ----- if it is 1500 range then I am off base on some thinking (like that will be a big surprise)