996 Horror Story- A Hard Lesson Learned and Advice Needed
01-27-2010, 02:22 AM
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996 Horror Story- A Hard Lesson Learned and Advice Needed
So I pulled the trigger, I finally bought my dream car (a 2000 911 C2, 40 some-odd thousand miles) advertised by a"reputable"dealer, "longtime Porsche owner (993 C4 Cab)", PCA member, and from the Pittsburgh, PA area..just under a year ago.Life is good for this guy.
Being the 28 year old tech-savvy retard that I am, I found the car on Autotrader in the pristine condition I wanted it in.. shiny, glossy, the right color and carbon fiber crap to boot (all the right rice) ... Porsche visual sex at its finest. Upon further netrosexual inspection prior to purchase I found that the vehicle had a clean carfax and that the current owner (per the advertisement on trader) was the owner of the dealership and that this was his personal car and the advertisement was for serious inquiries only! It must be an amazingly maintained and pristine automobile! All for $23,000!!! Riiiiight...
So of course I'm serious right!?! I have the money, my porsche pee-pee is stiff, and I have made up my mind that I am going to buy this car as long as its legit.. so I get a pre approval and obtain applicable checks, then drive the 280+ miles to inspect this dream, with full intentions of purchasing it if it meets the equivalent altitude of my 996 hard on.. and it does when I show up... LOOKS amazing!!!
.. that's where the fun starts.
So when I show up to the address provided by the (dealer) seller, I find a pristine 2000 996 sitting in the DRIVEWAY of a RESIDENCE. Upon meeting the seller I am explained that he is in transition of selling a dealership and is experiencing health problems
. The individual then tells me that the car is in the pristine shape that I expected and ensured multiple times that he is providing full disclosure of all known problems ( missing headlight washer topper, owner's manual, tow hook plug, and tires that need replacement in the rear within the next 10,000 miles). He even states that his "guys at the shop" ensured that the vehicle passed a "comprehensive safety inspection from the State of Pennsylvania".
This is where most people would run, but alas the boner prevails and Richie feels bad for a bitch... SO...
I proceed into this "Porsche Aficianano's" residence and seal the deal. The title is in a dealership's name (Nordstorm Select Auto) and all is well. I purchase the car under the impression that this individual is truthful in his disclosure and my purchase is covered under lemon law warranty in the State of Pennsylvania from the DMV... WRONG IS THIS DUMBASS...
So apparently while inspecting the bill of sale for this vehicle at the nearest rest stop (approx. 25 miles away from the seller's address) the bill of sale stated on the top "private sale" handwritten albeit the bill of sale was obviously a commercially produced reciept with the DBA crossed out. What makes this even better is that the individual notarized the bill of sale, as he is a notary public in the State of Pennsylvania.. read the fine print. realy.
So I return to said Douchebag's home and knock multiple times (for approx. 30 minutes) to no avail. I then proceed to drive the car towards my residence as it is late and repeatedly attempt to reach the seller via cell. I finally reach him shortly following the point that I cross the PA/ NY line and THE CEL COMES ON following hard accelleration out of a rest stop, violent vibration over 3000 rpm, and inability to put the car into gear following such jaunt. I tell him about the episode and he states that this is normal and that the check engine light will turn off and I might have been driving it "too hard".
.. it didn't turn off, and we all know that 911s are not to be driven like grandmas.. So I'll bring it to a shop and get checked out, no big deal (so I thought).
3 days later I try to title the car in NY and DMV tells me that it cannot be titled as the bill of sale does not match the title (private seller vs. dealer) I call the seller and ironically he picks up and faxes me a bill of sale on letterhead that matches his "ex-dealership" with the fields filled out that match the prior bill of sale less a few hundred dollars " for my troubles"... Not notarized BTW.. and states this is OK from Penn... this was accepted @ NYS DMV. He apologizes for my troubles.. nice guy..
Anyhow, Within the next week I bring the car to Advanced Automotive in New Windsor, NY and Tom Florio does a series of diagnostics and inspections that take much of his valuable time and my valuable money... need less to say I have put less than 500 miles on this car since purchase and not by Tom's part, as he has been painstakingly troubleshooting this car for the better part of a year despite multiple e-mail and phone call attempts to the seller..no response has been recieved.
So in the time the vehicle has been in the capable hands of Tom it has been found that the car prior to my acquisition had a catostrophic collision with a curb, damaging the case just adjacent to the intermediate shaft, the transmission has been completely replaced as well as the motor mounts, tranny mount, oil pan, and some hack ended up JB welding the case (or equivalent) to attempt to solve the problem. There are other unknowns as well however the vehicle leaks oil like a sieve when full.
What we have deduced is that the CEL is being caused by a violent vibration that is apparent at 3,000 RPM or above, and such vibration will cause misfire codes in4rearward most coils. If the car is driven at little load and rpms are sustained at 3,000 rpm the CEL will flash, even while sitting still believe it or not. The tranny, clutch, and flywheel appear to be new as per Tom as well as the motor mounts.
All compression is within normal limits/coils have been moved/ replaced to no avail. RMS/IMS have been replaced with no solution to leak, Vehicle had a seized reference sensor bolt that was extracted and unit replaced, MAS replaced, smoke test done without negative result..
It seems that possibly this collision prior to my purchase might have tweaked an internal engine component (ie. crank balance, intermediate shaft) as most if not all other causes have been negated secondary to process of elimination as far as we have deduced. If anyone has any advice as to how to handle this unique situation please feel free to LMK as this is turning into an unbelieveable situation that is becoming quite costly. It is seeming that the only alternative is to purchase a new/ used/ refurbed motor, and eat the costs as the PA attorney General has told me to go scratch as the original bill of sale, albeit deception and tax evasive measures, was in a "private sellers" heading.
Be aware and be informed.. times are desparate out there... DO NOT let yourself be scumbagged and ensure a through and through inspection of your perspective p-car purchase, as it could cost you a bundle in the long run!
F-me
Being the 28 year old tech-savvy retard that I am, I found the car on Autotrader in the pristine condition I wanted it in.. shiny, glossy, the right color and carbon fiber crap to boot (all the right rice) ... Porsche visual sex at its finest. Upon further netrosexual inspection prior to purchase I found that the vehicle had a clean carfax and that the current owner (per the advertisement on trader) was the owner of the dealership and that this was his personal car and the advertisement was for serious inquiries only! It must be an amazingly maintained and pristine automobile! All for $23,000!!! Riiiiight...
So of course I'm serious right!?! I have the money, my porsche pee-pee is stiff, and I have made up my mind that I am going to buy this car as long as its legit.. so I get a pre approval and obtain applicable checks, then drive the 280+ miles to inspect this dream, with full intentions of purchasing it if it meets the equivalent altitude of my 996 hard on.. and it does when I show up... LOOKS amazing!!!
.. that's where the fun starts.
So when I show up to the address provided by the (dealer) seller, I find a pristine 2000 996 sitting in the DRIVEWAY of a RESIDENCE. Upon meeting the seller I am explained that he is in transition of selling a dealership and is experiencing health problems
. The individual then tells me that the car is in the pristine shape that I expected and ensured multiple times that he is providing full disclosure of all known problems ( missing headlight washer topper, owner's manual, tow hook plug, and tires that need replacement in the rear within the next 10,000 miles). He even states that his "guys at the shop" ensured that the vehicle passed a "comprehensive safety inspection from the State of Pennsylvania".This is where most people would run, but alas the boner prevails and Richie feels bad for a bitch... SO...
I proceed into this "Porsche Aficianano's" residence and seal the deal. The title is in a dealership's name (Nordstorm Select Auto) and all is well. I purchase the car under the impression that this individual is truthful in his disclosure and my purchase is covered under lemon law warranty in the State of Pennsylvania from the DMV... WRONG IS THIS DUMBASS...
So apparently while inspecting the bill of sale for this vehicle at the nearest rest stop (approx. 25 miles away from the seller's address) the bill of sale stated on the top "private sale" handwritten albeit the bill of sale was obviously a commercially produced reciept with the DBA crossed out. What makes this even better is that the individual notarized the bill of sale, as he is a notary public in the State of Pennsylvania.. read the fine print. realy.
So I return to said Douchebag's home and knock multiple times (for approx. 30 minutes) to no avail. I then proceed to drive the car towards my residence as it is late and repeatedly attempt to reach the seller via cell. I finally reach him shortly following the point that I cross the PA/ NY line and THE CEL COMES ON following hard accelleration out of a rest stop, violent vibration over 3000 rpm, and inability to put the car into gear following such jaunt. I tell him about the episode and he states that this is normal and that the check engine light will turn off and I might have been driving it "too hard".
.. it didn't turn off, and we all know that 911s are not to be driven like grandmas.. So I'll bring it to a shop and get checked out, no big deal (so I thought).
3 days later I try to title the car in NY and DMV tells me that it cannot be titled as the bill of sale does not match the title (private seller vs. dealer) I call the seller and ironically he picks up and faxes me a bill of sale on letterhead that matches his "ex-dealership" with the fields filled out that match the prior bill of sale less a few hundred dollars " for my troubles"... Not notarized BTW.. and states this is OK from Penn... this was accepted @ NYS DMV. He apologizes for my troubles.. nice guy..
Anyhow, Within the next week I bring the car to Advanced Automotive in New Windsor, NY and Tom Florio does a series of diagnostics and inspections that take much of his valuable time and my valuable money... need less to say I have put less than 500 miles on this car since purchase and not by Tom's part, as he has been painstakingly troubleshooting this car for the better part of a year despite multiple e-mail and phone call attempts to the seller..no response has been recieved.
So in the time the vehicle has been in the capable hands of Tom it has been found that the car prior to my acquisition had a catostrophic collision with a curb, damaging the case just adjacent to the intermediate shaft, the transmission has been completely replaced as well as the motor mounts, tranny mount, oil pan, and some hack ended up JB welding the case (or equivalent) to attempt to solve the problem. There are other unknowns as well however the vehicle leaks oil like a sieve when full.
What we have deduced is that the CEL is being caused by a violent vibration that is apparent at 3,000 RPM or above, and such vibration will cause misfire codes in4rearward most coils. If the car is driven at little load and rpms are sustained at 3,000 rpm the CEL will flash, even while sitting still believe it or not. The tranny, clutch, and flywheel appear to be new as per Tom as well as the motor mounts.
All compression is within normal limits/coils have been moved/ replaced to no avail. RMS/IMS have been replaced with no solution to leak, Vehicle had a seized reference sensor bolt that was extracted and unit replaced, MAS replaced, smoke test done without negative result..
It seems that possibly this collision prior to my purchase might have tweaked an internal engine component (ie. crank balance, intermediate shaft) as most if not all other causes have been negated secondary to process of elimination as far as we have deduced. If anyone has any advice as to how to handle this unique situation please feel free to LMK as this is turning into an unbelieveable situation that is becoming quite costly. It is seeming that the only alternative is to purchase a new/ used/ refurbed motor, and eat the costs as the PA attorney General has told me to go scratch as the original bill of sale, albeit deception and tax evasive measures, was in a "private sellers" heading.
Be aware and be informed.. times are desparate out there... DO NOT let yourself be scumbagged and ensure a through and through inspection of your perspective p-car purchase, as it could cost you a bundle in the long run!
F-me
01-27-2010, 02:40 AM
#2
Rennlist Member
Oh man, that sucks. I feel really bad for you.
Please please always get a PPI.
Please please always get a PPI.
01-27-2010, 02:41 AM
#3
Three Wheelin'
Wow - I wouldnt wish this on my worst enemy. its too bad that your dream car purchase is bad. How much do you have invested at this point? At what point do you have good money chasing after bad? What are the costs to get the car to stop vibrating/leaking? new engine? Maybe park it in NYC and hope it gets stolen (hmmm, never mind I was just joking...)
01-27-2010, 02:48 AM
#4
Three Wheelin'
I'm very sorry to read of your troubles. I too know of the Porsche erection and have done some really dumb things. I know this doesn't help...but know there is a guy in the suburbs of Sacramento that feels for you and hopes it works out for the best. These are great cars when they are running properly. Good luck!!!!!
01-27-2010, 03:05 AM
#5
You say the engine also errors when out of gear with all these symptoms?
A guy could hope its just one sides cam electronics.
I'd think small claims court for trouble getting the diagnosis done at shops would get it locked into law it's a screwed up deal. Then not certain if he actually owns the dealership like you can really believe his story....the sale although his personal or dealer oriented was with the knowledge of it being a lemon car. Add that to the fact of sale being under good faith of him not filling you with BS might void the sale I'd think. Then I'd think the judge after it all adds up in costs could fact of law bump it up to a higher court case not covered by small claims hopefully with his finding of guilt or deceit attached. If things do start rolling your way then have prices for estimates and already paid out ready. Damages could be a whole totally different thing, like a new GT we could all wish.
Good luck getting recourse.
A guy could hope its just one sides cam electronics.
I'd think small claims court for trouble getting the diagnosis done at shops would get it locked into law it's a screwed up deal. Then not certain if he actually owns the dealership like you can really believe his story....the sale although his personal or dealer oriented was with the knowledge of it being a lemon car. Add that to the fact of sale being under good faith of him not filling you with BS might void the sale I'd think. Then I'd think the judge after it all adds up in costs could fact of law bump it up to a higher court case not covered by small claims hopefully with his finding of guilt or deceit attached. If things do start rolling your way then have prices for estimates and already paid out ready. Damages could be a whole totally different thing, like a new GT we could all wish.
Good luck getting recourse.
01-27-2010, 05:59 AM
#7
Addict
Rennlist Member
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That sounds like a bad experience indeed. It is a shame too, because I think these are some of the toughest cars out there, while also being very straight forward to work on for the most part.
This is sort of interesting. If the car was above 3000rpm and smooth before the light came on, this would imply that there's a problem with some sort of engine control, possibly vario-cam issues on one bank or what have you. I'd also be weary of any shop that's charging you lots of money, and replacing parts, without the problem being solved...
I finally reach him shortly following the point that I cross the PA/ NY line and THE CEL COMES ON following hard accelleration out of a rest stop, violent vibration over 3000 rpm, and inability to put the car into gear following such jaunt. I tell him about the episode and he states that this is normal and that the check engine light will turn off and I might have been driving it "too hard".
.. it didn't turn off, and we all know that 911s are not to be driven like grandmas.. So I'll bring it to a shop and get checked out, no big deal (so I thought).
.. it didn't turn off, and we all know that 911s are not to be driven like grandmas.. So I'll bring it to a shop and get checked out, no big deal (so I thought).
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01-27-2010, 07:26 AM
#8
I would think the ECU telling the vario cam to advance to higher lift and one side doesn't then the side dropping out on following instructions would show an error. Which bank of cylinders is the rear coil pack if it is related to only one side? I'm not sure if the 911 ECU is managing fuel and ignition maps like I've messed with but if it is going into advancing the ignition and increasing the lift as a norm then a shorter duration of valves might show as the misfiring group.
Like anything else its all tough to you have the right answer. Good luck figuring it out. Hopefully the mechaincs aren't happy to throw parts at it all day and have sense enough to zero in on the problem through deduction. Could just be the coil flakes out when higher loads are on it. I doubt it's easy to swap them around but if a good one is handy for testing it might help. The first test I would advise is in the dark let it try the trick and see if you see sparks flying off the ignition wires.
Like anything else its all tough to you have the right answer. Good luck figuring it out. Hopefully the mechaincs aren't happy to throw parts at it all day and have sense enough to zero in on the problem through deduction. Could just be the coil flakes out when higher loads are on it. I doubt it's easy to swap them around but if a good one is handy for testing it might help. The first test I would advise is in the dark let it try the trick and see if you see sparks flying off the ignition wires.
01-27-2010, 09:07 AM
#9
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01-27-2010, 09:58 AM
#11
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Welcome to Rennlist! sorry to hear about your problems.
Thats why we all preach the Pre purchase inspection here, but I understand we all make mistakes when making emotionally driven purchase like a Porsche, Hope you can get it sorted out.
Plenty of good info, advice (and laughs to be had) here!
Thats why we all preach the Pre purchase inspection here, but I understand we all make mistakes when making emotionally driven purchase like a Porsche, Hope you can get it sorted out.
Plenty of good info, advice (and laughs to be had) here!
01-27-2010, 09:59 AM
#12
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a years worth of looking you could have rebuilt/replaced the motor with a used one? - tough story -
here is why emotion buying is a killer.....but that is how I bought mine and it did work out OK...
zero inspection, dumb as a rock, OOOWWWEEE it's shiny, i'll take it............
sorry for you man
here is why emotion buying is a killer.....but that is how I bought mine and it did work out OK...
zero inspection, dumb as a rock, OOOWWWEEE it's shiny, i'll take it............
sorry for you man
Last edited by ivangene; 01-27-2010 at 10:20 AM.
01-27-2010, 10:01 AM
#13
Rennlist Member
Crazy story Rich - I'm sorry it happened. Let this be a lesson to all perspective buyers - A PPI, while it may not find everything, is still a worthwhile investment of a few hundred bucks. Beyond that, it can even act as a "filter" before you make an impulse purchase.
Tommy knows his stuff. If it can be repaired, he's a good candidate for the job. Another top-notch shop in the area and really knows 996s is DeMan Motorsports.
Tommy knows his stuff. If it can be repaired, he's a good candidate for the job. Another top-notch shop in the area and really knows 996s is DeMan Motorsports.
01-27-2010, 10:32 AM
#15
Sorry to hear. I know that Tom has a PIWIS, and he cannot track it down, I am not sure what you can do. The oil must be going somewhere, and the vibration, must be the engine.