Dharn55

I want to applaud Jake and Charles, Pelican and the Spanish group for their work on this issue with the M96/7 engines. The work you have all done benefits all of us owners.

Jake and Charles. I like the idea of your higher quality bearing. Will you be making these bearings available separately? The idea of replacing the bearings with each clutch replacement seems to make sense to me. If one has already installed the LN kit with the updated shaft and flange, it would be nice to be able to replace the ceramic bearing alone as a maintenance item.

Charles Navarro

Yes, we will make the bearing available, although we expect the service life of the ceramic bearings to exceed the service life of the rest of the engine. Only time and inspection of in-service ims retrofit kits over the next few years will allow us to substantiate longevity claims.

Charles Navarro

Roberto,

As you have already stated that you don't like to criticize in an aggressive way any aspects of our design, I will do the same. You do have a good idea, but the problem I see is in the assumptions you have made.

You have also made a bold statement that your solution is a problem fixed. The problem cannot be solved, only improved. If you want it fixed, get a MY09 or later DFI car. That's the only way it is happening.

As you have stated, you are not an M96 specialist. How much experience do you have with your solution in an M96 engine? Software modeling is a tool. Practical application and real world testing is as far from modeling as you can get.

Your first assumption as stated is flawed. If you have an ims failure and if you can center the shaft, that you can save the engine. Typically when the ims bearing fails, you have microwelding caused by the wobbling of the shaft and contact made with the ims flange. Your design definitely is novel in that it prevents this secondardy failure and may prevent you from having camshaft deviation which could lead to bent valves, among other damage that could be caused to the engine by such an event.

Your modeling does not take into consideration what the f.o.d. (foreign object debris) does to the rest of the engine. If and when you have an ims bearing failure where the bearing looses its seals, separator, and *****, where does all of this go? Throughout the engine. The main reason we do not warranty our ims retrofit when this happens is that you can have a secondardy failure from the debris, which has happened in cases where the retrofit has been installed after a complete failure (where the new ims bearing is fine, but something else fails).

I completely understand the claim that your ims Lifeguard should allow continued operation of the engine without deviation in cam timing that could bend valves, etc. The whole idea is that the check engine light will come on, but allow continued operation. For an attentive driver listening to his engine, yes, this will allow the main (frontal) bearing to be replaced and save the engine. Do you understand the average Porsche owner (not those on the forums who are well informed and attentive)? They treat their Porsches like a Honda or Toyota. If you have visited enough Porsche dealerships or independent shops, you would come up with the conclusion that the average owner will drive the car even with lights on until the car will not drive any more.

That said, have you tried installing one of your Lifeguard bearings with a compromised front bearing to purposefully test your hypothesis?

In other words, have you experienced an event where the primary bearing has failed and your secondary bearing has saved the IMS?

PelicanParts.com

Undetermined as of yet, but it will probably be 1 year, 12,000 miles on the craftsmanship of the materials supplied in the kit (the new bearing, the bolt, the spacers and the o-ring). As Charles as mentioned, when you have a catastrophic bearing failure, but manage to save the engine (as we did in my tech article linked previously), it's anyone's guess as to whether debris and particles have made their way into the rest of the engine. This is a simple fix for the factory bearing - replacing it with a new one along with a better, stronger center stud. As mentioned previously, this is not meant to be an overall fix for the problem, but a maintenance procedure designed to renew the bearing at a specified interval.

-Wayne

ivangene

actually Charles brings up a good point.. if any of you have seen a failed bearing.... it aint pretty.. imagine metal on metal until parts generate so much heat they deform, mush together and detonate in a violent eruption of fragments... all is good and well with the "saver" bearing but if the outter bearing come apart and is driven it will surely destroy the bearing race (seat) in the IMS gear making any "save" worthless because the motor has to come apart to replace the gear (mind you no valve/head work would be required "hopefully")
I have seen failed parts, you are not going to be reuing them... there is nothing left to use. Often the race from the failed bearing is so embedded into the gear that its nearly impossible to tell where the bearing ends and the gear starts. Also once "welded" in, removal via the now "standard" method is impossible for several reasons like: there is no bearing to pull out: the race is welded and the little bolt cant overcome the welds and breaks

the best approach is to have it not fail, so with that in mind you have to look at who makes a better main bearing, who had it the bearing designed for the "wrong application" ie the center is stationary, and.... well I am drawing a blank on a third point because I am tired, but the fact is... not failing beats failing and having a backup plan IMO

last comment, replacing using the stock parts is not a bad idea, with the exception of that darn bolt is so whimpy and has obvious stress points in its "undercut" design, the bolt has been known to simply sheer off and a good bearing can lead to IMS failure when the bolt holding it all together is no longer hanging onto home plate...Being a machinist i would like a new bolt and a better flange that is not cast crap even if I had a better/newer bearing. We can refer to the "other parts" in the motor that are cast which have "issues" ie IMS chain tensioner arm - cast parts in these places are a problem as you cannot see internal fractures that will lead to failure down the road... and we see failures - LNE makes a replacement for a reason.

night all.... not fear mongroling, just discussing the options and opinions of the options....love ya KISS!!!

ivangene

PS, since Marc posted his "no more IMS" thread this is the best thread on the subject

juankimalo

I found this thread very interesting to Porsche enthusiastics.
People as me who like to read technical explanations, different arguments and different points of view could obtain richer knowledges.
I hate reading those kind of threads where someone's asking for mounting 19" or 20" rims, ...

bigchunk

I did post the concern about the failed bearing parts yesterday in post # 29


I will wait and see what the guy that designed the bearing says, but the worry i have would be this, if the main bearing were to fail and the secondary bearing done its job and kept the shaft in place and the engine was still functioning, what about all the damaged parts of the main bearing that collapsed? surely they would all be getting pumped about the engine, destroying main bearing shells, crankshafts etc especially if the engine is still running?
I am sure that the only engines that have been saved are ones that have been caught just as the bearing fails, which obviously means that the collapsed bearing parts have not had time to be pumped around the engine and ruin the rest of it?
Just a thought!

Pac996

Doesn't the shaft go through both bearings so shattering isn't a problem just flaking if any bearings do start flaking out. Then I'm sure the flakes would be in the oil filter and on the magnetic drain plug.

juankimalo

Interesting questions.

I found very useful the magnetic oil plug. That's why I purchased it.









Concerning to several questions and trying to clear some points I can say (I've been talking to Rober):

- The extracting tool that I purchased to Raby was used to extract the bearing of my car and was given to my mechanic. This extracting tool is different from one was used by Barracuda (LN extracting tool is similar to a wine bottle corkscrew). I saw Insaro's extracting tool last month. It's completely different from LN's one. It has different extracting system, so there's nothing to say about the comments suggesting that I was involved in a possible copy. The pusher is similar, but It's not an engineer panacea's design. Just a cylinder as Rober said.
- I'm sure of Insaro tested all the different kit references in different gearbox. The piece works and fits perfectly. There are different finishing designs from one that was seen in the pictures. So think that they are ready to fit properly with special grooves (each reference has its own design to be fitted). Not all the picture references was showed in the web.
- If the main bearing is going to fail, the ceramic ball (not metallic parts) as well said Pac996 the oil filter will do its job. The large bearing support and the external 3 screw piece will keep fitted on and thanks to the triple special sealing, you'll never suffer a IMS leak. The 20 mm support could hold 4 tons, and the IMS tube will not fall down.
- Important: If someone's going to purchase a retrofit kit like these is becasue he is well informed of the possible internal M96 engine troubles. If you would sell any kit to an user, you must explain how to proceed in case of a hypothetic bearing failure, so the system was designed to hold the engine the time needed to do any maneuvers you'll have to undertake. So he will save the engine, because it won't be out of point.
- Insaro is a product MADE IN SPAIN. In Europe we have a strong currency (Euro € = 1,3032 $ today). That's a handicap for people who import things from Europe, as we've been suffering since a I was a child with a strong dollar.

Nevertheless Rober will come here again to explain the rest.

Charles Navarro

If an engine has one of our magnetic drain plugs, it will attract the ferrous debris from a failing ORIGINAL ims bearing and you will certainly find some debris as well in the oil filter.

With the stock oil filter arrangement, it goes into bypass at very low pressure, so when debris starts to circulate and get in the filter, it quickly gets pushed back out into the engine through the bypass!

With a ceramic (sintered silicon nitride) bearing, there is no ferrous debris for a magnetic drain plug to collect. These ***** do not flake either. Their failure mode is if they were to explode (or get crushed, etc.), they revert basically back to the powdered state they were before the sintering process (to very greatly dumb down the process) The last thing you want circulating in an engine is chunks of sintered silicon nitride. It's hard (has to be machined with diamond). It will destroy everything inside the engine if the engine is run long enough to circulate the debris. We know this from our years of experience running silicon nitride lifters in pushrod engines. If you do happen to break a lifter (and have chunks circulate), the engine is toast.

Charles Navarro

I have read Roberto's posted specifications on the Lifeguard secondary bearing, but those specifications are useless in practical application unless you have proper lubrication for this bearing AND it is installed with the proper press required to pre-load the bearing. I have already asked if this bearing is indeed in contact with the IMS shaft (pressed in) during normal operation, with no answer from Roberto on this. Any bearing mis-applied, installed, or loaded won't perform properly for long.

That brings me to my next question. How can the claim of 60 hours be substantiated? Even if it will run for 60 hours (which I would like to see proof of before such a claim could be made), the f.o.d. will take out the engine from a secondary failure well before then, guaranteed.

That's a tough one to prove. You'd have to be driving in such a manner on public roads that you're a hazard to other drivers to be in such a position where a sudden power loss would put you in a hazardous position. Maybe if you're driving in the Kink at Road America, that might be another story entirely...

There have been several complains filed with the NHTSA with regards to IMS failures and sudden power loss, having had contact with them by email, and still they have not deemed there to be enough merit to force a recall or even investigate the issue further.


When we first started working with the M96, we got grilled on why anything we did was better than the factory, since "P" can do no wrong. All I'm asking for now is substantiation of claims with proof and documentation, as was expected of us. We have waited and have been left with more questions than answers.

fpena944

I agree and want to applaud all of you as well. I've not used any of these products yet but when clutch replacement time comes I will seriously consider going this route in order to keep my engine running longer. Having these options is a truly a huge benefit to all of us M96 owners!

Jake Raby

Collateral damage from foreign object debris is the number one reason why we can't save most engines that have experienced an IMS bearing failure. This secondary damage quickly takes out critical clearances within the engine that requires full tear down to facilitate the repair of.

I would like to know how many IMS bearing failures the team from Spain has had first person interface with. If they have any experience at all they'll know the secondary damage is what kills the hopes for a repair in most every situation.

I still have not seen the pictures of this solution being used in actual operation, or with a manual flywheel thats stock and non modified. Do these exist?

I also question how this design will accommodate the different designs of IMS drive, be it the duplex style chain (used through 2000) or the later style (used 2001-) as the two use different IMS sprockets and have varying flanges. Looking at the pictured design I can't wrap my head around how this design can be outfitted to a -2001 engine.

The other challenge is how the secondary bearing that is fitted into the tube can accommodate the various ID variations of the IMS tube from year to year. These IMS tubes are not precision components on the ID because in factory form the ID is of no specific use. The IMS tube is a low grade steel tube that can measure all over the place with a precision device anywhere along its longitudinal axis.

I know these things, because I have learned everything I know about these engines from their dissection, manipulation and reconstruction. This wasn't gained with software, a book or asking people questions. I finally learned enough to instruct others how to do the work with the same mindset and right now I am writing the book on it.

I'll close by saying that I greatly respect the effort that went into this design of retrofit and that I have zero ill feelings toward this group or anyone else who chooses to jump on the bandwagon. We have all the business that we want and anymore would take away our personal interface and support that we want to maintain no matter what. I feel the more options that become available will prove the method that Charles and I attacked this from offers the least compromise, easiest installation and best overall value/ return on investment.

I'd like to take a trip to Spain, meet this team and see how this actually works in an engine. What does your winter schedule look like Roberto?

juankimalo

Jake, I must say that It sounded funny