Peter 642

In this month's Panorama, in which the 996 tech adviser answered a 996/M96 IMS basic question with, "The LN Retrofit kit is a must on all 996 models."

I have no interest in opening an IMS discussion, so please do not. I am however sorry to see the passion with which the tech expert responded in the negative.

That you can discuss.

soverystout

Well, I never intended to replace my IMS bearing, as long as no materials showed up in the filter.

However, after my last oil change, I noticed quite a few pieces of black plastic in the filter.

I decided to have the bearing replaced. I change my oil every 3400 miles and my car is a vehicle that was/is always driven (not a garage queen, it's my DD).

So my indy pulled the bearing and said, "the bearing looks great!".

That provided a certain level of relief as you might imagine.

However, I don't believe my indy is as well versed in the modes of failure for the bearing.

They gave me the bearing. It had a lot of clean oil ON it. (I changed my oil 4 days before I put it in for IMS service.).

When I brought the bearing home, I wiped off the outside of the bearing with paper towels (seals in place).

I had the bearing sitting in the IMS Mounting plate (showing off the world's most expensive paper weight) and over a day clean oil ran down onto the IMS mounting plate.

I then pulled the seals. Inside, there was very little sign of any permanent grease.

Plenty of clean oil, but almost no grease.

And my bearing seals looked perfect.....

Case in point, if you don't want to replace the bearing, it would be important to know 2 things:

How long did you engine sat unused and how often was the oil changed over the course of the engines life.

If you can't answer these questions and change your oil when you remember instead of every 6 months, I would replace the bearing.

My bearing may have lived for many many more years and thousands of miles do to my oil change obession. But if you are not obsessed and the car sits all winter, you may want to quesiton how much permanent grease & or clean fresh oil in sitting in your bearing?

mjb2448

If Road and Track or Car and Driver took up the banner could a recall on Stutgartts dime be in the cards?

street rod

I just got done doing my IMS retrofit. It made very good sense, especially since I needed a clutch for which there is no additional labor. I would suspect if the tech advisor answered in that way then the IMS replacement is becoming a standard preventative maintenance item. It would be nice if Stuttgart stepped up but I doubt it.

FRUNKenstein

I'm not a PCA member, so please forgive a stupid question as I couldn't find the answer on the PCA website. But, what are the credentials of the PCA tech adviser for the 996? No doubt that he (I'll assume it's a "he") is an expert, but does he have any official position within Porsche? Is he an indy mechanic? Porsche surely has little ongoing concern for 996 maintenance issues as they are all out of warranty by now, and it is my understanding from reading here that Porsche does not officially recognize the IMS issue with these cars. It is an interesting glimpse into the inner sanctum of Porsche if someone within the company were recommending that the retrofit "is a must" for all 996's. That's pretty strong language.
As for me personally, I'm a former 964 owner and recently bought my son a 951. I'll buy a 996 at some point over the next few months, and I've been listening and learning from you guys in this forum over the past few months. So, if you want the outlook of an outsider/non-owner who isn't tempted to rationalize/minimize the IMS issue, here's my take on this comment by the PCA tech adviser:
It adds nothing to the real world issues that a 996 owner faces. The IMS problem was discovered years ago. 996 owners now have viable options to deal with the IMS issue (LNE retrofit, IMS Guardian, aftermarket warranties to name 3). Almost every make and model of car has some sort of significant flaw (search "2001-2002 Honda transmission" for proof that even the paragon of reliability has bad days). If it is an admission by Porsche that there is a significant design flaw with the IMS bearing, it should come as no surprise that they have waited until the last of the IMS bearing engines (model year 2008) are nearing the end of their warranty (4 years). As much as we like to think Porsche is all about the enthusiast community, it still is a "for profit" company (how else do you explain the Panamera?).

dresler

A translation for the non laywers in the forum....

Peter 642

Got a few great responses from the group there; needless to say they do know their stuff I'm sure. If I have permission I'll post it, but in any case I appreciate the responses I've received from Panorama.

groovzilla

again this just proves the point that those cars with the LN engineering ceramic IMS bearing upgrade are more enjoyable/less stressful to drive for the owner and much more desireable to buyers.

i don't think there is any room for discussion on the topic.

Marc Gelefsky

Sneaky Pete

+1

Ahmet

I've instructed and spoken to dozens of people with 996s (or M96 variants) through PCA. I've never met somebody that's had an IMS problem themselves. I've personally torn down two 996 motors that were broken:

1: Cracked cylinder at 40k miles. IMS bearing looked and felt new.
2: Low oil pressure at 170k miles. IMS bearing looks and feels new. I may rebuild this motor, and I may re-use the factory IMS bearing if I do.

To each his own. I worry about other things, my 996s have been incredibly reliable.

Jacks911

Here is the Background info on Joe. I think I would trust his opinion. I personally take my 996 to Chris Powell, and Chris is another one of the independent expert mechanics called on by the PCA as a Tech advisor in Panorama. (Note: this is Not a Porsche Inc. publication) Chis is also a fan of the LN Bearing.
I trust his advice and he has often advised against some costly repairs to stay safe and save $ when deferred maintenance is not a big risk. As Joel says - the risk of a $20,000+ repair part of his consideration when thinking about the LN update.
This is what I want from a Independent Porsche tech - straight advise based on real experience, and considering risk verses cost. You decide....
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Joel Reiser
19 years experience working on Porsche street & track cars
PCA National Tech, 964/993/996/GT3/Cup since 2001
PCA dual member since 1988 – Upper Canada & Niagara
PCA & Trackmasters Driving Instructor since 1994
PCA Natl. Certified Instructor
2nd Overall 2005 CASC Ontario Challenge Cup Championship
3rd Overall 2003 CASC Canadian Touring Car Championship
4th Overall 2002 CASC Canada Challenge Cup Championship

Reiser-Callas Team Owner, ‘98-’00
1999 ALMS GT3 Privateer Points Champions
1999 USRRC GT3 championship
2nd at Daytona, 3rd at Sebring
2nd of 40 cars, 9th of 80 overall, Rolex 24 Hours of Daytona
3rd in class, 12 Hours of Sebring inaugural ALMS event in 2000
PCA/GrandAm/ALMS/CASC Race driver since 1998
Co-drivers David Murry, Hurley Haywood, Johnny Mowlem, Craig Stanton, Grady Willingham, Doc Bundy, and others.
finished 24 hrs of Daytona twice, 12 hrs of Sebring twice, & Petit LeMans once - total of 5 for 5!
10th of 80 drivers in 1999 ALMS GT driver points
Team car #02 won Mid-Ohio, Laguna Seca (Murry/Mowlem), only air cooled RSR ever to beat the GT3R/GT3RS in pro competition
Licenses: ALMS, ProSportsCar, GrandAm, USRRC, PCA CR, SCCA Pro Dual, HSR, SVRA, ASN-FIA Canada, ACCUS Entrant

nick49

Techs opinions vary widely on almost any subject involving mechanical or electrical issues.

No different from MDs or any professionals. Ask your doctor if he recommends a PSA screening?

philooo

remember to replace your water pump every 3 years or so, this part seems to cause as much damage as the IMS, through engine overheat. The bearing is just more dramatic for the owner with noises and smoke and whistle, while overheating is not as 'graphic'.

C4CRNA

I just read this in my local PCA Newsletter about oil annalysis
http://www.porschenet.com/Noreaster_...1Noreaster.pdf
Page 25

(e.g. you can not use a magnetic drainplug connected to a continuity meter
to tell you anything other than your engine is about to fail,
in which case it is usually too late),