Clutch and while you are in there
10-29-2012, 07:12 PM
#1
Clutch and while you are in there
So, after many months of procrastination I finally decided to take the parts that have been sitting on my kitchen floor to the dealer. Thought I needed a clutch and hell that meant replacing the IMSB and the AOS, at minimum. I had cancelled this appointment at least four times because I really wasn't sure I needed a new clutch and I really didn't want to replace other parts that might be perfectly good. 2004 C2 with 75k miles on the car, over maintained, routine oil analysis showing now problems.
Almost cancelled this morning but decided to just do it, the C2 has been my primary driver and with weather coming I didn't want any issues.
Luckily, I was able to stop by the dealer and watch as the tech took the car apart. I really wanted to watch him remove the IMSB and see what condition it was in.
But - before we got to that the first thing we notice is that the clutch disc looks near new, plenty of meat on it and side by side with the new one there is no difference detected by the naked eye, but I know it has over 50k miles on it. (good, I guess I do know how to drive these things) Now the tech and I are confused, it sure felt like the clutch was getting near end of life, well most of the time. Other times it felt like it was perfect.
So I wince and I say maybe it's the pressure plate and I already bought the clutch pack so we'll just put the new one in. After all, we are already "in there".
Flywheel looks okay, minor heat checks but the tech shows me the spring back test and says he wouldn't recommend spending another grand just because the car is apart. Okay.
Then the OEM IMSB comes out, painless process in the techs hand. And the bearing seals are intact so we pry one off. No grease but plenty of oil. No signs of wear, looks and moves as if it is new. But we are already in there and now we are committed.
The we discuss the AOS and the tech tells me that I sure know how to waste money. Yes they fail but mainly on earlier models and especially early boxters. Then he says the same about the IMSB but since so many people are afraid of the failure he does recommend that they be replaced because it's easier to say that than to debate whether or not this issue is as huge as some make it sound. But I have a new AOS on the bench and we are already "in there"
And both the RMS and IMS seals were dry, they were replaced when the car was prepped for CPO in 2007 with 23k miles on the clock.
So I will spend the money and will be really interested to see if the clutch action is better or if I totally wasted a few grand. And now that I have evidence that I put 50k miles on the clutch and it is so close to new that pulling the car apart in 40k miles to replace the "service item" IMSB really will make no sense what so ever.
I do know that I am not wrapped too tight these days, because before I left I mentioned that next will be the water pump and engine mounts. By now there were three techs at my car, it was near lunch time, and the lead tech had a good belly laugh and very clearly said "man, you are f'ng crazy".
I'll post an update when I have one.
Almost cancelled this morning but decided to just do it, the C2 has been my primary driver and with weather coming I didn't want any issues.
Luckily, I was able to stop by the dealer and watch as the tech took the car apart. I really wanted to watch him remove the IMSB and see what condition it was in.
But - before we got to that the first thing we notice is that the clutch disc looks near new, plenty of meat on it and side by side with the new one there is no difference detected by the naked eye, but I know it has over 50k miles on it. (good, I guess I do know how to drive these things) Now the tech and I are confused, it sure felt like the clutch was getting near end of life, well most of the time. Other times it felt like it was perfect.
So I wince and I say maybe it's the pressure plate and I already bought the clutch pack so we'll just put the new one in. After all, we are already "in there".
Flywheel looks okay, minor heat checks but the tech shows me the spring back test and says he wouldn't recommend spending another grand just because the car is apart. Okay.
Then the OEM IMSB comes out, painless process in the techs hand. And the bearing seals are intact so we pry one off. No grease but plenty of oil. No signs of wear, looks and moves as if it is new. But we are already in there and now we are committed.
The we discuss the AOS and the tech tells me that I sure know how to waste money. Yes they fail but mainly on earlier models and especially early boxters. Then he says the same about the IMSB but since so many people are afraid of the failure he does recommend that they be replaced because it's easier to say that than to debate whether or not this issue is as huge as some make it sound. But I have a new AOS on the bench and we are already "in there"
And both the RMS and IMS seals were dry, they were replaced when the car was prepped for CPO in 2007 with 23k miles on the clock.
So I will spend the money and will be really interested to see if the clutch action is better or if I totally wasted a few grand. And now that I have evidence that I put 50k miles on the clutch and it is so close to new that pulling the car apart in 40k miles to replace the "service item" IMSB really will make no sense what so ever.
I do know that I am not wrapped too tight these days, because before I left I mentioned that next will be the water pump and engine mounts. By now there were three techs at my car, it was near lunch time, and the lead tech had a good belly laugh and very clearly said "man, you are f'ng crazy".
I'll post an update when I have one.
10-31-2012, 09:26 PM
#3
Finally have power back at one of the houses, not sure if the dealer's power has been restored yet so no progress report.
After Sandy the repairs aren't so much on the top of my priority list. Just very grateful that we had no real damage and no one was harmed. Just a stretch of inconvenience and a ton of yard clean up. We're counting our blessings at the moment, now that we can do things like make coffee and take a shower we are enjoying the simple pleasures.
After Sandy the repairs aren't so much on the top of my priority list. Just very grateful that we had no real damage and no one was harmed. Just a stretch of inconvenience and a ton of yard clean up. We're counting our blessings at the moment, now that we can do things like make coffee and take a shower we are enjoying the simple pleasures.
11-01-2012, 03:12 AM
#4
Ya my indie, who did my ppi, seemed slightly offended when i considered doing the water pump my last service. He says to me "what do you think i missed this on the inspection??" He eventually talked me out of it which really wasnt hard to do after seeing the ballpark estimate for clutch, lwfw, aos, ims, rms....lmfao! ;(
11-01-2012, 09:33 AM
#5
Rennlist Member
I have mine in for an IMSB (& RMS) as well. While engine is out, the dealer found the water pump was on its last leg and that the spark plug tubes needed to be replaced, as well as the drive belt. Since mine has ~50K miles, I had them replace the spark plugs as well since that is due in 10K miles and it's a 2001. I'm getting ready to take her on a long trip (the first for me), so knowing that she'll be in tip top shape really does give me some peace of mind.
Hoping to get another 50K miles out of her...
Hoping to get another 50K miles out of her...
11-01-2012, 07:20 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
It's a lot less painful, financially, and educational, if you can DIY, have the time, skill, tools, etc, but I agree, it's always a crapshoot of peace of mind vs maybe not needed. Preventative maintenance is always that way, though, and I have to say that even though I only have 48k miles on my '02, I know it is over 10years old, and sometimes it's just smarter to go ahead and do it. I just ordered new motor mounts, low temp T-stat, intake seals etc from Pelican for $290, and new water pump, AOS, coolant, and misc parts for like $530 from Suncoast, so $820 just for parts to do the AOS, MM, Tstat and water pump trifecta service a tthe same time. It seems like a lot of dough for those few part, but I know I'll be saving a ton doing it myself over 2 days, have more peace of mind, and after reading the OP, I feel a lot better about the money saved.
11-02-2012, 12:11 PM
#7
Update - just picked the car up and drove it for about 10 miles and so far the clutch seems fine, doesn't exactly match the C4S but no longer feels like it is near end of life.
A bit calmer now, I really don't mind spending for repairs, I was just concerned when I saw that the clutch disc looked as new and feared I was dropping thousands in the car that perhaps was not only not necessary, but that might not have resolved the clutch issue. More driving is required.
As to cost, a tad under $3K including a new AOS and the LNE IMSB. Noticeably less than quoted by an Indy and I prefer to continue working with my dealer anyway. Don't do much DIY these days, actually not since I was in the trade and front disc brakes and in dash 8 track tape players were cutting edge.
two points I considered after calming down.
1. This was a CPO car and at purchase it was stated that it had a brand new clutch pack installed because they were in there to replace a badly leaking RMS seal. When I was trying to justify the repair as a pressure plate going bad but then mentioned the clutch pack replacement, the tech did tell me not to believe what I was told. He said it is very common for statements to be made like "replaced clutch pack" when in reality the tech was told to just replace the clutch disk. He said it is common for any car dealer to do the minimum yet represent it as otherwise. Seat time will tell if the issue is solved.
2. As to the other "while you are in there" stuff - makes sense as long as you are in there for the right reason. AOS is like $120.00 for the part, LNE IMSB is around $600.00 and although I hate it being referred to as a "service item" the downside of not replacing it is for such a small price is too severe to ignore. Although failures are definitely not as common as touted, we do know that it happens.
And after thinking about my observation that there was plenty of oil in the bearing, I now recall that that oil and the oil in the tube was, well let's just say, less than pristine. Not sure I would rely on oil in that condition to provide adequate lubrication in the long haul.
So I am going to go drive her for a good bit - I have no strong intention of selling this car and with alternating between it and the C4S I will allow myself to believe that I have a good four to five years before worrying about the IMSB again.
Now I have to deal with my 20 year old son who reminded me this morning that I said he could drive the C2 after the clutch was replaced. Kid can't remember to pay me back or pick his shorts up from the bathroom floor - but remembering my "promise" somehow has not escaped him.
Thank all
A bit calmer now, I really don't mind spending for repairs, I was just concerned when I saw that the clutch disc looked as new and feared I was dropping thousands in the car that perhaps was not only not necessary, but that might not have resolved the clutch issue. More driving is required.
As to cost, a tad under $3K including a new AOS and the LNE IMSB. Noticeably less than quoted by an Indy and I prefer to continue working with my dealer anyway. Don't do much DIY these days, actually not since I was in the trade and front disc brakes and in dash 8 track tape players were cutting edge.
two points I considered after calming down.
1. This was a CPO car and at purchase it was stated that it had a brand new clutch pack installed because they were in there to replace a badly leaking RMS seal. When I was trying to justify the repair as a pressure plate going bad but then mentioned the clutch pack replacement, the tech did tell me not to believe what I was told. He said it is very common for statements to be made like "replaced clutch pack" when in reality the tech was told to just replace the clutch disk. He said it is common for any car dealer to do the minimum yet represent it as otherwise. Seat time will tell if the issue is solved.
2. As to the other "while you are in there" stuff - makes sense as long as you are in there for the right reason. AOS is like $120.00 for the part, LNE IMSB is around $600.00 and although I hate it being referred to as a "service item" the downside of not replacing it is for such a small price is too severe to ignore. Although failures are definitely not as common as touted, we do know that it happens.
And after thinking about my observation that there was plenty of oil in the bearing, I now recall that that oil and the oil in the tube was, well let's just say, less than pristine. Not sure I would rely on oil in that condition to provide adequate lubrication in the long haul.
So I am going to go drive her for a good bit - I have no strong intention of selling this car and with alternating between it and the C4S I will allow myself to believe that I have a good four to five years before worrying about the IMSB again.
Now I have to deal with my 20 year old son who reminded me this morning that I said he could drive the C2 after the clutch was replaced. Kid can't remember to pay me back or pick his shorts up from the bathroom floor - but remembering my "promise" somehow has not escaped him.
Thank all
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11-02-2012, 01:32 PM
#8
Rennlist Member
John - I enjoyed your writeup here and wish you the best! Please post more info if you figure out how to get your kids to remember the boring things.
11-02-2012, 05:37 PM
#10
Track Day
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I too enjoyed your write up especially since we have nearly identical cars. I do not pay much attention to the IMS issue but like you, when it comes time to do the clutch I might as well do the other stuff. So your write-up was very informative and I do appreciate you taking the time to do it.
On the other subject of your post I am sorry to say my 27 years old son also can't remember to put his pants on before going out but he too, reminds me "ad nauseum" of any time I have promised to let him drive the Porsche. So seven additional years of living appears to do no good for their memory. Sorry.
On the other subject of your post I am sorry to say my 27 years old son also can't remember to put his pants on before going out but he too, reminds me "ad nauseum" of any time I have promised to let him drive the Porsche. So seven additional years of living appears to do no good for their memory. Sorry.
11-04-2012, 06:59 AM
#11
Update - everything is working fine - clutch is good so I will assume I had a failing pressure plate. Put a few hundred strong miles on her and the engine is still together.
Of interest is the LN Engineering marketing glossy that was packed with the new bearing. It states that the retrofit bearing has a service life rated at up to 5 times the service life of the original.
I wonder how they quantified the service life of the original? In my case it could mean "up to" 375,000 miles, or more, since I also read the tech notes that state "no visible signs of wear and no discernable play in the original bearing".
Glad that this decision is finally over and done with - I put up with the funky clutch all because I truly did not want to replace the IMSB - but couldn't live with not doing it "while we were in there".
Finished putting on the winters on both cars - 13 year old thinks I am crazy - he is telling every one he can about how his dad is nuts because he was polishing the inside of all of the wheels.
And the 20 year old is playing with me a bit - keeps walking around the car then stands at the drivers side scratching his chin and saying "hmmmm - I am going to look good behind the wheel". Nothing wrong with wishful thinking I tell him.
I also have a 23 year old - I am thankful that the ability to drive a manual escapes him and he only goes so far as to suggest that I add a 3rd Porsche - he says "you know, maybe a convertible with an automatic". Hey at least we raised some wishful thinkers.
Drive and enjoy.
Of interest is the LN Engineering marketing glossy that was packed with the new bearing. It states that the retrofit bearing has a service life rated at up to 5 times the service life of the original.
I wonder how they quantified the service life of the original? In my case it could mean "up to" 375,000 miles, or more, since I also read the tech notes that state "no visible signs of wear and no discernable play in the original bearing".
Glad that this decision is finally over and done with - I put up with the funky clutch all because I truly did not want to replace the IMSB - but couldn't live with not doing it "while we were in there".
Finished putting on the winters on both cars - 13 year old thinks I am crazy - he is telling every one he can about how his dad is nuts because he was polishing the inside of all of the wheels.
And the 20 year old is playing with me a bit - keeps walking around the car then stands at the drivers side scratching his chin and saying "hmmmm - I am going to look good behind the wheel". Nothing wrong with wishful thinking I tell him.
I also have a 23 year old - I am thankful that the ability to drive a manual escapes him and he only goes so far as to suggest that I add a 3rd Porsche - he says "you know, maybe a convertible with an automatic". Hey at least we raised some wishful thinkers.
Drive and enjoy.
11-04-2012, 12:34 PM
#12
Rennlist Member
I went through the same scenario just a couple weeks ago, except my issue was a failing throwout bearing. It finally went and I just don't have the free time right now to do the work myself, so the car went into the shop for the work. The clutch looked practically new, but since they were already in there I had the RMS, LNE IMSB, and a bunch of other little things done. My shop talked me out the AOS though because it checked out fine and I guess it's not much of an issue on the 3.6s.
11-04-2012, 04:12 PM
#13
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It'a almost always the pressure plate that fails on these car. The cluth discs seem to never wear out. I have my race car all apart at the moment (thrown rod) and the 3 year old stock clutch looks brand new. I replaced the PP last summer when it failed, but the disc looked great then and has worked perfectly all year. I was going to replace it now but again, it shows zero wear and I race in two series each year so there's lots of racing hours on the disc.......
11-05-2012, 06:40 PM
#14
Thanks all. For those of you who have gone through this - has anyone had the release bearing throw out arm upgraed to the superceded 997 part? I had asked to have that done, they said they would order in the parts, but noticed on the invoice that I wasn't charged for the part. Stopped by this morning and the tech said it didn't need it so he didn't do it. Not happy, would have gladly spent the $70 or so to know I had the latest iteration of the part.
Since the invoice said they installed it, and I complained quite politely, I did get a decent labor refund and an offer to have the trans dropped and the part installed with labor on the them. Extremely fair offer, just not sure it justifies tearing the car down again.
Thoughts anyone? Perhaps I am worrying about nothing.
Since the invoice said they installed it, and I complained quite politely, I did get a decent labor refund and an offer to have the trans dropped and the part installed with labor on the them. Extremely fair offer, just not sure it justifies tearing the car down again.
Thoughts anyone? Perhaps I am worrying about nothing.
