Flat6 Innovations

Doesn't matter to me.. I only sell it to my engine purchasers.

These are the reasons why I never wanted it to go to market.

KrazyK

Sorry Steve but maybe you dont realize who your talking about. Please take the time to read ALL the articles about JR and his work, watch his videos, then read some more.

A tremendous amount of FREE knowledge about YOUR car. All of which he developed by hands on real research not some round table pansy discussion bench racer group.

I think I will use what he knows and take care of my M96 engine to the best of my abilities. I wish I could attend one of his seminars but I cant afford it.

Jake, you have the patience of a saint with some of the stupid questions and ungrateful comments. Please dont hold them against the rest of us.

Steve's MLC

Krazy, I've actually read just about every word on Jake's website and have emailed him several questions which he was nice enough to answer personally within a day of my asking.
As you know I'm brand new to Porsche ownership and I am thirsty for knowledge. I am here to learn. Saying "Because Jake said so" does nothing for my learning.

KrazyK

Sorry Steve, I may have misunderstood your post.

perryinva

DT40 sounds good. I wonder if Jake thinks it's worth putting it in an engine with some miles on it, that shows no issues, or if because it is superior if the DT40 can stay in a car for 2 years if it has under 5k miles on it. For me, the 3k oil change mileage number has been moot, as due to my work/life schedule, I never put on 3k a year on my 996, anyway, and change it once a year. Last 2 changes were Castrol 5-40 Syntec, before that was Mobil 1 0-40, with 2 of the qts 15-50. I installed the IMSG, pulled the pan, was spotless in side a year ago, & always ran the LNE magnetic drain plug and spin on adapter with Mobil 1 filter since I got the car at 38k miles in '08 (now at 49k). I never look at what I call "familiar" cost, just total cost. Or I never would have a few months ago, pre-emptively replaced a perfectly working water pump, AOS, T-stat, coolant cap, or hose. Change a $300 water pump before it needs it is a waste? No, spend $300 to preserve the cooling system, engine and TCO (Total Cost of Ownership). I look at it as an engineer, and engineers believe in preventative maintenance. So if DT40 is $11 a qt and we need 10 qts its $110 vs $70 for normal oil (though I did just buy 12 qts of the Castrol 5-40 Syntec for only $40) so if I am preserving the engine for a difference of less than a tank of gas, it's not really a discussion, I'd do it. But engineers also don't just do things "because", there has to be some rationale. So if I can get 2 years and 5k miles from DT40 vs 1 year and under 3k miles on Castrol, it is a real no brainer from every aspect. Just saying and asking...thanks for your support, Jake.

Flat6 Innovations

None of us are perfect, pencils are equipped with erasers for a reason.

All of us put our pants on one leg at a time, I am just extremely good at what I do because I love it so much and know nothing else. Its a life, not a job.

I emailed Lake Speed to see what data I can share and he is going to send me a non-confidential UPOA of DT 40 tomorrow. Until then here are the HTHS results between DT 40 and 10/40 M1. Aside from elemental analysis this High Temperature High Shear test is how we rate an oil's ability to remain effective under the conditions that the M96 sees daily as the engines have inherently high oil temperatures, almost always greater than that of the standard 212*F API standard for viscosity measurement.

There is much more to "grading" an oil than most people would ever know and you won't read it online. The parrots don't understand it.

KrazyK

Seriously, would it make sense to risk a 20K engine by using a 2 year oil change interval? You cant possibly think this is a good idea?

2 oil changes per year $100 or less each
VS.
1 destroyed M96 engine $20,000

Simple math to me.

mmahon04

Thank you. I'm looking forward to seeing the UOA results; this should cover my questions about the additive pack and TBN numbers.

Considering it is a UOA though, are the results based on a sample drawn from the M96?

Care to share, or point me in a direction (I'm not book averse either )?

Ubermensch

Jake, thanks for the information on the oil. Many of us come from science and engineering backgrounds, so like you, we like to have data to base our decisions on. Would you mind clarifying what the test duration was (EOT)?

-Shawn

Flat6 Innovations

Makes ZERO sense. Of course, until someone loses a camshaft lobe, lifter or timing chain they won't realize that. I require 5K/ 6 month intervals for street cars and oil changed after every event for track cars. Based on my data the oil is compromised after these periods as it is laden with fuel (solvent) and other contaminants that must be purged.

This will partially provide an overview of the oil. These do not tell the entire story and should never be the only resource material used to "grade" the effectiveness of an oil. Through the development of this oil we used engine teardowns and measurements to help us understand how things react within the engine. This started as a collaborative effort between my company and LN Engineering in 2002 and has been an exhaustive effort that continues every day with no end in sight. As newer oils are impacted by the changes that must be in place for CAFE in 2016, most all oils have been impacted and this will only increase until 2016.

Last time I checked the M96 was the only engine that populated our facility, with a few 9a1 DFI engines. The DT40 was explicitly developed using the M96/M97 engine family. We were originally going to call it "M9" until there were copyright issues. It also works well for BMW engines and some Mercedes, so it was just called European oil and DT40 through Gibbs.

No resource for this one.. You'd have to be part of developing an oil from the anti-wear and detergency packages all the way to a finished product to understand it. I had no clue that such small changes could make such huge differences and the majority of those won't ever be found in a "report" that the armchair experts can sit back and decipher. If you really want to learn attend one of Lake Speed's lubrication seminars, he hosts them around the USA and abroad often and its free to attend. It is NOT an infomercial for Gibbs because it can't be. Lake is one of 290 Certified Lubrication Specialists and he must offer his knowledge to people like you guys to maintain his standings with the API. Because of that there is no sense of bias in his presentations.

We are now working with Gibbs on fuel stabilization products with cause and effect on engine tuning, fuel system components and related items. This is to support an effort to lessen the harmful effects of ethanol enriched fuels on modern and vintage vehicles alike.

Maybe, which test are you referring to?

Please don't inflict paralysis from analysis on this topic.

KrazyK

Sometimes the "engineer" and "analyst" types tend to overcomplicate an issue rather than just accept the fact that common sense is usually the right path.

Unfortunately I have seen this many times in my career where "round table theorists" come up with what they think are brilliant hypotheses without ever considering how these edicts can be implemented by the persons they are actually directed to or burdened upon.

In summary, they tend to overthink an issue while accomplishing nothing until the "hands on guy" calls and says "never mind, its fixed". You seem like the latter to me. I find it very funny that these guys "dont have time to change their own oil" but have lots of time to rehash research already done by you.

I immediately got what you said. Better adhesion and less shear under extreme conditions. For me, case closed. Im switching to JG DT40 and adhering to my what some call frequent change intervals. Thanks again for your patience.

Flat6 Innovations

I would buy a case of JG BR break in oil to use as a 100 mile flush before chaining oil. This lessens cross pollination from one vastly different base oil to another and it does make a huge difference on the first two oil services after switching to DT40. I know this. Here I assemble engines with JGR assembly lube and break them in on JGR BR break in oil, then use DT40 from that point forward. I ensure that no deviation is made at all, for any reason and it works phenomenally well. For engines that see track service we then apply JGR XP-9 (which we developed from just an experimental base oil of "Lubrizol "980" into the XP9, much like DT40.

DT40 is NOT designed to be utilized for on-track activities, it is a street oil just like any other and it must maintain its ability to hold up for 5K mile service intervals. All of my engines that see even one day of track service utilize XP-9 and that product is only good for 750 miles before the additive packages are depleted.
So, in other words don't track your car on DT-40.

It takes more than patience. I am too damn intense for this.

WalterRohrl

The last two posts illustrate perfectly the reason why the "armchair experts" ask for more information before making a change due to a source on the internet, however well respected and knowledgable that source appears to be.
I am NOT slagging Jake, but I AM saying that the questions make perfect sense to ask.

Lots of us here track their cars. KrazyK, I know you don't but if you did and if you had just run out and bought the oil based on Jake's previous posts in this thread (as you apparently did), Jake's last post would have had you sitting there with a case of oil that would now be the wrong thing to use for your engine.

The point is that just because someone recommends something you cannot just take it at face value unless you examine ALL of the parameters that apply to the context. Jake may run DT40 in all the engines that he builds....UNLESS that engine is for track duty - then he appears to recommend something else.

Flat6 Innovations

Note that I said that without being asked. Thats the difference that you won't generally find. We know what does work and more importantly we know what doesn't work and why.

If you buy the oil from me, or from LN you will be told the fact about track service. If you buy it from a generic source you will not, which means getting what you pay for has a different definition than most believe.

Will DT40 work on the track? It has for us. Was DT40 designed for track service at all, absolutely not. Our goals for this flavor of oil did not include track duty at all. For the track, XP9 is exceptional and is a true RACE oil in every way, able to maintain VI @ temperatures north of 280*F sustained. When your street car goes to the track, it becomes a race car and it requires a race oil.

Some may argue, few hold the data.

2300cc

I am actually planning on making this change this winter, I will be using the break-in oil, JG advised me just to warm up the engine with it and drive around the block a couple of times and than put in the DT-40.