Madcaplaughs

I was not aware that Porsche had released ciruit times for the MK2 around the Ring? What was the time and what is the source of your information?

Madcaplaughs

The final sentence of the article states that the MK1 is greater than the MK2.

Incidentally, I don't necessarily agree with this conclusion. Certainly for the road the MK2 is a better sorted car. On the track though I believe from the various posts and opinions of owners, that the MK1 is more focused for track use.

Still thats only my opinion.

Sun Ra

the mag appeared yesterday. more BS from GT, it's sad really. a big let down.

1] when i moved to Eire in November of 1978, everyone referred to November as the blackest month -- isn't every Englishman aware it is likely to rain in NOv???? why schedule the test without a window for weather?

2] why are we reporting a wet test? [need to fill space] we already know a TT will win.

3] notice his mistake in the gt2/3 article where he says the gt3 suspension is not adjustable, among others

4] can't even compare MK I and II from these articles, no real dry. can't get an apex in a MK II because of understeer? try throttle steering in by a slight lift... i begin to question their driving

"to die for" exhaust note [gt3] and power/ooks [gt2].. tired and awful. what a lousy writer.

crasherror

I love "GT Purely Porsche" they have the best articles, superb photos and they have a true understanding of what it means to own and drive Porsches.

Bass GT3

Watt,

I understand your frustration, but believe me, it's likely to rain at any moment in England so waiting for a dry spell is not an option
This aint Malibu!!
I think the test is a bit skewed as they readily admit the Mk1 was set for the track, so any meaningful comparison against the MK2 is not going to happen.
Just a heads up though, it looks as if GTPP will be doing an article on my car in the very near future, both on road and track, so watch this space

best Regards,

Steve B

Sun Ra

Steve,
i noted the setup, another item making the test a marshmellow...

i distinctly remember dry days while visiting London.... but my point is i already know i want a TT for the wet.

the photos are generally good but look closely at the gt2/3 logo photos...

Bass GT3

Hi Watt,

Ok, you complain that GT Purely Porsche's recent test of the 2xGT3 left you unable to draw a comparison between them. I accept that i maybe about to start an unholy row here, but i think we are all adults, so here goes.
Firstly, lets examine the basis of the MK1's creation. Racing. Pure and simple. The fact that people were willing to pay a healthy premium to drive a car with barely any creature comforts, hard suspension, leery handling and a raucous engine is Porsche marketing trick born out through history. Less for more $$. Just look at the tale of the original RS 2.7. The profit on such cars, albeit in limited production runs is quite healthy compared to the standard cars, combined with the halo effect such a car gives the entire range.
So, whats the thinking behind the MK2? You guessed it, profit... And AMERICA! Here we have Porsche's primary market denied possibly the best model in the MK1, so something must be done! quick there's money to be made!! Now enter the MK2 GT3. Baring a couple of improvements over the MK1, such as brakes and engine mods, this car is in my opinion, geared specifically at the American market and at maximising the profit such a market brings .Lets compare the two...
1. MK2 Suspension has stiffer springs but with softer bushing giving a more pliant ride.
2. MK2 Ride height is increased over MK1
3. MK1 Single mass flywheel not available on MK2 clubsport model
4. On board computer fitted to MK2.(do you really need it??)
5. Cup holders fitted due to demand/pressure from the US market(This one says it all guy's!!!)
6. Recaro seats not available in US. Might not fit the " ahem...larger American frame"
7. The production of the engine cases was moved to Spain i believe and these no longer carry the 964 deignation . This is done for cost reasons
8. Probably in excess of 3000 MK2's being made vesus 1800 for the MK1
So, what does this tell us. In my opinion, the MK1 IS the more track focused car, as that was it's reason for being.
Yes, if you had an original, standard MK1 and put it up against a new standard MK2, the MK2 will be slightly quicker around a track by virtue of it's superior brakes and tiny power advantage. I believe Herr Rohl was some 7-10 seconds quicker around the 'Ring in a MK2 compared to his MK1 time, itself a record,and that is on a 20KM lap. Very small difference all in all.
Now, if we are looking for the true successor to the MK1, i think we have to look to the new RS. Firstly, no Michelin tyres so less understeer, but Pirelli's. Totally revised suspension for homologation purposes. Single mass flywheel(i Believe) and loads more modifications not present on the MK2. So why did the USA not get the MK2? Cost of compliance. On a 500 car build run, there is simply no point in getting type approval/crash testing approval on a car which may only sell 200 models in the US. And more to the point, would the US be ready in general for the RS?
In the end, i think it is a moot point trying to compare the MK1 to the MK2. They are different cars, with different goals and different strengths. Around a track, if the MK1 has upgraded the brakes to the MK2's,(which is the MK1's Achilles heel), there is nothing between the two.In fact, it may be the more enjoyable car with it's more involving suspension I think anybody who has traked their car in the UK will agree to this. I comes down to the pilot, and the tyres, plain and simple.For example, at the last track day i attended,it poured down all day and i whipped the *** off every other GT2 /GT3 there, including GT3 RS's. Why? How is this possible? Simple. I ran Pirelli W6 full race wets. Game over. Now if the MK1 really were inferior or substantially slower to the MK2 in all aspects, this should not and could not happen, but the truth is they are incredibly similar.
Now you might ask how i come to this possibly controversial conclusion . Well, i have a MK1 clubsport and my closest friend a MK2 comfort and we regularly track them. On a dry track, his standard MK2 is no match for my MK1 with cup tyres, even prior to my engine mods, so that shows you the closeness between them. Many people i know who have had a MK1 regret changing to the MK2, and are getting the RS to replace the MK2. They all say the same thing. The MK1 felt more alive, involving, vicseral.
So in conclusion, i feel we can sum the cars up as follows,
MK1.... original, focused, a flawed genius.
Mk2.... A commercial decision. The GT3 lite. The GT3 for the masses.
RS.......The King is dead......Long live the King!!!!!!!!
Now i accept that this may cause some controversy, but this is my view!
Watt, now PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE dont take this post as a flame, but as the MK1 never reached your shores, how will you ever compare the two without driving them both. IMHO the MK2 does understeer more on Michelins than a MK1, but it is the better car on the road the majority of the time as its suspension has been set to appease the majority of owners who dont want race car stiffness.
As for the wet test, i think you are being a tad optimistic thinking a window for the weather will work. Over here, from September to April, it's likely to rain at any time, and possibly for a long time. How big a window do we leave for the test? How long are GTPP to book the track for? If you attend a track day and it rains, do you ask for it to be rescheduled to a dry day?? Lets face it, we all drive in the rain at some time.
So Watt, to get a real comparison, next time you are in the UK, let me know and you can have a blast in a MK1.
There you go, even GTPP can't offer that!!

Right, that should have put the cat amongst the pidgeons .

Regards,
Steve B

XSpeedFreakX

....You forgot to mention that many Mk1's fell considerably short of the quoted power figure.

ADOGNY

Just out of curiosity, but if the MK2 was made for the US market and to keep our fat asses happy, why are only 750 out of the 3000 being built (as you also reminded us) coming to our shores? Why keep the extra 2250 over yonder when all you guys do is complain about the car!!!!

You are entitled to your opinion, and we are entitled to disagree. That whole argument just doesnt make sense based on the production numbers and sales splits. If they kept 750 over seas and sent 2250 to the US, I might agree more with that idea.

rockitman

It should be noted that only 750 GT3mk2's came to North America. That leaves the bulk of them for Europe and elsewhere...Also, not all GT3 Mk2's have the spanish crank case. Those produced at least thru July '03 contain the 964 model designation(mine does 7/08/03), although I dont believe it makes any difference either way. I do disagree that the Mk2 was designed for the soft American market, imo and that is backed up by the majority of the production geared to Europe....

Sloth

I thought production numbers for the GT3 was going to be around 1500 with 750 being sent to the US.

Got the 964 case here in my 07/03 build.

MetalSolid

Using this logic the MkI GT3 is also very similar in performance to the GT2. So you're really saying a MkII on slicks in the rain should be faster than a modified MkI on rain tires???

ADOGNY

This is just another case of someone trying to defend their vehicle and sick of all the ranting about the new model he does not own. Mk1 is a great car from what I have read/heard (Cant drive one here) - no argument there.. But for such an intelligent sounding guy, his arguments are not realistic at all. He should equip both cars the exact same, and run the each in the same conditions, driving each equally as hard. I bet he buys the MK2 after the track day is over...

ADOGNY

Rockit -

I kind of said the same thing I thought.. Just not as smooth as you are..

macfly

Interesting points, but in response, with just a little heat............

1. MK2 Suspension has stiffer springs but with softer bushing giving a more pliant ride.
Is it not possible to upgrade the suspension on our GT3’s to make the handling sharper and keener? This is after all the same chassis motor combination, we are just talking about a few component details here aren't we?

2. MK2 Ride height is increased over MK1
again, we can easily remedy this, no?

3. MK1 Single mass flywheel not available on MK2 clubsport model.
will this change my life, or more importantly my enjoyment of the car?

4. On board computer fitted to MK2.(do you really need it??)
I love this, it is a long way from LA to Laguna Seca, Sears Point, Thunderhill etc, and things like this make the day more fun. I like enjoy all that info, and the kit that gives it to me weighs less than my lunch.

5. Cup holders fitted due to demand/pressure from the US market (This one says it all guy's!!!)
Ahh, that smug anti American motoring arrogance I read on lots of message boards. Why do you assume we can't drive, and you are somehow superior because you never go anywhere far enough to want a cup of coffee in the car?
I can say that as an American citizen that this snide comment seems childish and irrelevant. My Father raced against Sterling Moss, Mike Hawthorn etc in the '50s, was President of both the BRDC and the Guild of Motoring Writers, and is still one of the House of Lords main speakers on motoring and motoring safety. He never taught me that the English were superior, he taught me humility and respect. Even though I grew up in Beaulieu, England, I am proud to be an American. I now have some of the best roads in the world on my door step, and 7 great race tracks within 12 hours fantastic drive. No speed cameras, no villages to slow down for, just hundreds of miles of awesome twisty roads criss crossing this beautiful land, great weather, and wonderful, humble motoring enthusiasts. England isn't the sole holy grail of fast driving, no matter what you may think.

6. Recaro seats not available in US. Might not fit the " ahem...larger American frame"
Silly me, I forgot there are no large, tall, wide or overweight people in Europe.

7. The production of the engine cases was moved to Spain i believe and these no longer carry the 964 designation . This is done for cost reasons.
[b]Remember those those who said that Japanese motorbikes inferior, made out of monkey metal, and would never be considered real motorbikes.[/b}

8. Probably in excess of 3000 MK2's being made versus 1800 for the MK1.
and why does this make the Mk 1 a better car?

Fun is fun, behind the wheel, or at the keyboard, hope you can handle the heat! :-)