Wreck Me Otter

I've run MANY events with TracQuest in the past 2 years and I've never observed "wild west" driving. I've also run with Judy and Carl at Driving Concepts and I'll state that there is no difference in the safety between the two organizations. Both are run tightly. I've run with other groups that I have seen "wild west" driving and I no longer run with them, but I can assure you that TracQuest isn't one of them.

I'd recommend that you guys run with a group and observe for yourself rather than rely on Internet banter or second hand info. before you go spreading rumors like this.

macfly

I'd be very curious to know exactly what you heard and from whom.
Todd, In my life the only place I hear track talk is at the track. This was a passing comment I heard last year, when asking about other run groups to join in with, as I wanted more track time than the few days I was getting between BMWCCA & DC. I don't really remember exactly who said it, and alone it wouldn't have stopped me making my own decisions. The pictures of the crunched Corvette on your own site, and Watt's comments however added to my caution.

to say they are "wild west" only shows you haven't been to enough DE to judge what's good or not.
Mooty, you can never go to enough DE's in my book, and I have never been to a TrackQuest event, so ofcourse I can't judge that, but if you re-read my original post I wasn't judging, merely saying that I had heard a similar opinion to the Watt made in his post. That's all.

Silver Bulletthanks for giving TQ such a resouding validation, and I shall indeed go for a run with them. It is great to know there are more safe options for a great day out at the track. I would like to ask you for the wisdom of your experience, and PM me those you feel I should aviod.

To everyone I view this, and all the two other internet boards I read, as being great sources of information to help us keep our cars, and our motorized fun in good order. What has happened here is an excellent example of how this works. Watt & I had both heard things of an unfavorable nature about TC. By using this public FORUM to express this we have given Todd, and people who have had great experiences a chance to defend himself and his operation.

Without this FORUM I would never have made a call to TrackQuest because in the back of my mind I had was worried that this was not a tightly run and controlled group, and I don't wish for anything bad to happen while I'm out at the track.

Watt's expression hasn't had a negative effect on TQ, quite the opposite, the situation is now clearly out in the open. This is the power of a public FORUM, TQ just gained 2 new customers. Now can that be bad?

Todd Serota [TracQuest]

John and Kim: Thanks very much for posting so people will have an accurate picture of TracQuest events and what they're about. For others on the board who don't know, John and Kim have been to as many TracQuest events as anyone, so they are in a position to KNOW how they're run.

Macfly: Thanks for having an open mind. However, the danger of posts like Watt is evident from the fact that his comments reinforced your negative view even though he hasn't the faintest clue about TracQuest events and hasn't been within 100 miles of one.

Fyi, if you mean that Watt is the second new customer I've gained, I have to say I seriously doubt it. Perhaps you're not aware of this, but I'm the one who bought Watt's second GT2 (the Speed Yellow one). I have no idea why, but he has taken to attacking me and trying to make my life difficult on bulletin boards and on the Rennlist 911 list. What you saw here is a perfect example. In fact, I find it particularly ironic because I'm the one who told him about the 911 list and how to subscribe in the first place. It's really tough to figure him out. Even though he took the clear side light markers (which were on the car when I saw it and were part of the deal) off of his GT2 before delivering it to me and stuck the original orange ones back on (causing me to have to buy a set of clear ones), I still gave him a fairly expensive, rare bottle of wine when I went to his house to pick up the stock sport seats for the car. I guess what they say is true: no good deed goes unpunished.

I also wanted to address your comment about the crunched Corvette. I assume you're referring to a Corvette that was damaged at Laguna Seca because that's the only one I recall. If so, that Corvette belonged to a very experienced instructor/racer. When instructors push a bit too hard and hurt their cars it's not much of a reflection on whether that's likely to happen to participants in their street cars since instructors fully know the risks and can make very informed judgments and decisions. At least that's true unless the group is allowing instructors to engage in virtually full wheel to wheel racing, which certainly isn't the case at my events. That said, I have the following general observation. EVERY group that puts a substantial number of cars on the track for DE events is going to have some number of incidents. It's the nature of putting a lot of high performance cars on the track and teaching the drivers to work up to the limit of those cars. That number will increase, and the incidents will become more serious, when the events are at tracks where there are lots of things to hit when you go off, like Infineon and Laguna Seca. I run events at tracks all over the country, including tracks in the East where there are virtually no places to go off without hitting something - i.e. Watkins Glen, Mid-Ohio and Road Atlanta. That's why even though I take it personally when anyone does ANY damage to his/her car, I'm even more proud of my safety record. Many groups don't run any events at tracks like that, limiting their venues to Willow Springs, Buttonwillow and Thunderhill.

In any event I look forward to meeting you when you do attend a TracQuest event. If it's your practice not to publicly identify yourself on this board you might want to send me a private email so I will know it's you when you register. You've got three events in the fall from which to choose: Laguna in March, Buttonwillow in April or Willow Springs in May.

Hamann7

Todd,

For being quite the entrepreneur advertising 3 businesses, including Tracquest, law firm, and wine, you sure come across as a cheap ***, bitching and moaning about a $50 set of clear sidemarkers.

Get over it. There are better things to worry about in life. I spend more than $50 at the car wash every time I go. Jesus.

That would make me uncomfortable about going to TQ, after all, who would want to go to an event hosted by such a miser?

I happen to know Watt very well, and you must have done something to him to **** him off. Did you declare support for Howard Dean or something?

Todd Serota [TracQuest]

Hamann7: I don't know you from Adam, bu you're clearly letting your friendship with Watt cloud your judgment, to the point of putting up a blatantly hostile post towards someone you don't even know. WATT is the one who took the markers off of the car so WATT wouldn't have to spend $35 to get another set for his GT3. In most realities, that would make him the "cheap ***," no? And he's the one changing $100k+ cars like most people change their underwear, to quote one of his many "Wattisms."

Think about it objectively for a second. You look at a car and make a deal to purchase it. When you pick it up, the seller has removed one or more items from it. You're not going to be at least annoyed? Obviously it's not the $35. It's the principle. He even denied that clear side light markers were ever on the car (and thus removing them) until I referred him to a picture of the car he had posted, showing them.

Let's take a quick poll. How many think it was just fine for Watt to have removed the clear side light markers before delivering the car to me? Or, how many think Watt was out of line and should not have removed them, or should have at least provided me with another set once I noticed?

Marco Polo

Let's not. Both sides have been adequately presented, and we will each have our judgements in the matter. Staging a consenus poll will only prolong the agony to no real benefit. For one thing, only those inclined to post on controversial matters will post, so it will, at best, be another round of rhetoric and no true consensus of those exposed to this debate. Don't you agree?

Todd Serota [TracQuest]

Poll or no poll - either way is fine with me, Marco. However, if most of the people on this board objectively think that my view on the side light marker issue is out of line, I'd like to know about it because I would need to consider making a radical readjustment in my thinking. In my mind, this isn't anything even remotely related to a close call.

MJones

I've been to TQ at LS and found it to be run quite well and I had a blast!
Watts comments about visibly empty roads in the Santa Monica Mtns is pure foolishness, for anyone to drive a buck and change, next we will hear that he uses the whole roadway on entrance and exit from a blind right or left... pure stupidy.
It's bad enough on any given day, on any SoCal mtn rd having approaching vehicles encroach (crossing the line) simply because most people cannot drive correctly.
For me the distraction of what may be coming towards me keeps the boy racer in check.
Staying within my lane helps hone my autox skills as well.
The best thing about the track is that no one drives towards you and 100% consentration is applied to driving the line.

ADOGNY

I feel like I am back in high school again.. Watt is one of the most valuable members here and I enjoy reading his posts. That doesn't mean as a mature adult I cannot make decisions now for myself. Bottom line is this forum is here for people to ask questions, learn, and certainly all post their opinions. Watt is entitled to his, as are we all, and trying to bash him now for what he says only makes me think even less of your organization. While he may have been harsh or even mistaken, the way you lashed out at his character was just plain immature and unprofessional. I get people who question my business and integrity many times, but once I explain to them how my business works and why we charge what we do, most of them wind up buying from me in the end! If I spoke down to them or tried to insult them in return as you did, I doubt they would be customers today and who knows who else they would have turned away from me. The worst part is Watt hasn't even responded in his defense and you continue to bash him with every post.

As was said before, for someone who advertises to be quite the businessman, you are coming across sounding like a little whiney kid. Feel free to defend your business, as it is your right and I would do them same in your shoes, just choose to act more like an adult next time - it will get you further with the members.

Todd Serota [TracQuest]

ADOGNY: Surely you jest. I strongly suggest you reread the thread, starting at the top. Me attacking a defenseless Watt? Let's look at the first post in this thread that involved me. That's the one where, out of nowhere, Watt bashes TracQuest, telling people my events are unsafe, even though he's never been anywhere near one. I wouldn't even have known about it unless a friend of mine had emailed me to suggest that I might want to say something in a thread on this board where my livelihood was being bashed.

My initial response was very measured and didn't bash his character at all, much as I wanted to do so for his totally unprovoked, malicious attack. Even in the other posts I didn't bash his character. Believe me - if that was my intention, you'd know it. In response to Macfly's well-intentioned suggestion that I had picked up 2 new customers (one of whom was Watt), I simply explained to Macfly why that wouldn't be the case. That required a brief recitation of my history with Watt, which included mentioning what he had done with the side light markers. I made no commentary on his character in view of what he did. The fact that you think even mentioning it factually was "bashing" him shows what you think of his conduct but won't say directly.

From your post it sounds like you're a businessman. I don't know you or what you do, but let me ask you. Someone disparages your business and says you sell unsafe products (or provide unsafe services). You're going to worry about insulting him because he might not become a customer? One of his friends says you're bashing him. You're not going to say, "Huh?"

There's some history that you don't know. Watt and I were quite friendly in consummating the transaction in which I bought his GT2. I was miffed about the side light markers and his flip response when I politely raised it with him, but I got over it - enough to give him a damn good bottle of wine for no reason, just to be a nice guy. My reward? On the Rennlist 911 list I offered for sale the sport seats that originally came with the GT2 (it now has GT3 seats). Out of nowhere, Watt posted that I was trying to rip people off by asking too much - this when I'm the one who told him about the 911 list in the first place and suggested that he subscribe. Others on the list, with no ax to grind either way, responded by saying that my asking price was right in the ballpark.

Frankly, I liked Watt, "different" as he is. I even offered to give him free driving instruction so he could enjoy his cars more. He didn't indicate that he had any intention of taking me up on my offer. I don't know what caused him to turn on me the way he did, but given all of this, I seriously doubt he'll be a TracQuest customer no matter much I take his abuse and treat him with kid gloves (which I've done anyway). Besides, when we were friendly and I suggested that he come out to a TracQuest event he said he only likes doing small private events with 8 to 10 people. No worries - to each his own - but that provides no explanation for his conduct.

In conclusion, I hope you'll keep an open mind about this and look at the situation objectively. I see that you're in New York. I have two events at Watkins Glen, one in May and one in October. Even if you don't want to sign up, come out, say hello and go for some rides around the track if it's not too far. Lunch (great hot catered lunch at the Glen Club) is on me. The Internet is a great thing, but it has its downsides. It's real easy for people to get the wrong idea about each other from reading hard text. In the end, personal contact is where it's at.

Ryan S.

Cool thread guys. Its like a board room battle. I’m only 20, but I still love listing to business men argue in a somewhat constructive manner.

Now let me throw my completely pointless 2 cents in. Well, actually, retract that statement. My comments aren’t pointless, I will most likely be a tracquest customer some time in the near future. So with that said, let me throw my completely relevant 2 cents in.

First ill start with the side markers. I’m not sure on the specifics of the sale, or what watt advertised the car as having on it during the time of the sale. But, if the car was shown to Todd before the sale, in pictures, in person, etc., with the clear side markers on it. I think it would have been best for Watt to leave them on. Especially if he told Todd through an advertisement (classifieds), or verbally that the car had clear side markers.

With that said though, who really cares about the side markers. Its a roughly 40 dollar part. Taking into account the overall price of the car, I seriously doubt that’s gonna put a significant dent in your wallet.

But I’m a little curious, what was watts response when you asked him about the side markers?


Now here’s my problem with what you’ve said Todd. Ill start with this quote first.
“Even in the other posts I didn't bash his character. Believe me - if that was my intention, you'd know it.”
- Wow, talk about being in high school again( and trust me, I should know something about high school. I was still their less than two years ago). With all this talk from you about business men, I seriously doubt quotes, or rather, attitudes like this will help you improve your Business man reputation. I hope you realize how childish you sound when you say stuff like that. Cause if you don’t, god help you and your various businesses. And trust me, before I invest in a company in any way, I do use quotes like the one up above to help me get an idea of what the overall attitude of a company will be. And if I was so closed minded as to only take into account that one quote, I wouldn’t participate in any of your events. But, I think I’m somewhat open minded. So I think ill let that quote slip under my radar.

On to the next quote-

“From your post it sounds like you're a businessman. I don't know you or what you do, but let me ask you. Someone disparages your business and says you sell unsafe products (or provide unsafe services). You're going to worry about insulting him because he might not become a customer? One of his friends says you're bashing him. You're not going to say, "Huh?””

- Yes, you actually should be worried that they, and their friends might not become customers. Customers are what’s keeping your business alive. You should do every thing in your power to help disprove any untruthful opinions or rumors about your companies unsafe products or services. When I say everything, that doesn’t mean resulting to personal attacks against the disgruntled (hahah) customer, or saying things like you did in the first quote I posted. The minute you result to personal attacks, or threats, I lose any and all respect I had for you. And once you lose my respect, you also lose my business. Now If the customer still continues to bash your company even after you’ve proven him and his opinions of your company wrong. The best thing you can do as the owner of the company is just turn the other cheek and let nature do its thing. Your other satisfied customers will do all your fighting for you (which they did in this thread). Every time the disgruntled customer complains about your business and its practices, your satisfied customers will speak up endlessly against the whiny customer and his untruthful comments. Eventually the whiny customer will get tired of complaining and shut up. Then people will do nothing but praise you and your wonderful company.

With that said, and disregarding a few of your lines. Id say you did a pretty good job at defending your company. And because of that very constructive defense. I will still attend tracquest events in the future.

Todd Serota [TracQuest]

Hi Ryan:

I'd prefer not to prolong this thread further, but you raised a number of points publicly that I feel the need to address. Let me say up front, though, that I'm glad you plan to attend a TracQuest event and look forward to meeting you. I see that you live in Houston. Unfortunately I don't have any events in Texas, but perhaps you are planning on a nice road trip, or renting a car at a remote track. If it's the latter, let me know and I can assist.

Now, to address your points:

1) I respectfully (and not surprisingly ) disagree with your view that my comment was childish. Was it a comment from someone who's pissed? You bet. I wasn't even in this threat and was attacked out of nowhere, and then I was accused of "bashing" him, which I didn't. I wanted the poster to know that my post would have looked a lot different if I was bashing him. By implication, that meant there is a lot more I could say, but have intentionally refrained from doing so in the interest of professionalism and not turning this into a schoolyard brawl.

2) Watt is not a customer - past, present or possible future. He told me so himself when we were still friendly, long before he decided to disparage my business publicly for no reason. A customer complaining is a different situation. I posted the "defense" I did for others to read. He prefers small private events with 8 to 10 people, and that's fine - to each his own. I think organized events are better if for no other reason than the instruction people receive, but that's my view on that subject. He's entitled to his.

3) I appreciate your view on the best way to handle it when someone disparages your business, but I again must disagree. I'm not going to sit back and let things take their course because I know how things like that work. It generally takes about 100 "good comments" to counteract the effect of 1 "bad comment," and with the Internet, it's probably double because of how broadly and quickly things are communicated. That's the result of human nature because people pay much more attention to negative things than positive things. That's why the news looks like it does. So, if someone continues to disparage my business, I'm not going to sit back and let nature do its thing. Of course, you'Re talking about a hypothetical situation because there hasn't been any further disparagement.

4) Regarding the side markers, as I said in a previous post, it's obviously not about the money. It's the principle. The car had them when the car was advertised and when I personally went to see it. The car was delivered without them. You want to know what Watt said when I asked him where they were? He said the car never had clear side light markers. I told him that it surely did because they were on the car when I saw it. He told me I must have been mistaken. It wasn't until I referred him to a picture of the car he had posted on the Internet that he admitted they were on the car. When I asked him to put them back on the car, he said something that I wouldn't post on a public bulletin board, but the result was that I had to buy another set. I honestly can't fathom why people would think I'm being petty for being annoyed about it. He's the one who wouldn't go out and spend $35 for another set for his GT3, having just received a check for $138k. Wouldn't you be just a bit miffed under those circumstances?

5) I'm curious what your reaction was/is to Watt's first disparaging post. You didn't comment on it, as others likewise haven't done. On boards and list serves that I frequent, someone who did that would be crucified by others on the board. You simply don't disparage another person's business, unless you're warning others in the community based on a personal bad experience you had. And even then one has to be very careful because such things can be actionable.

6) Finally, if you want to get an accurate picture of what TracQuest events and I are all about before having the opportunity to find out for yourself, there are hundreds of people who know me personally for a number of years and who have been to many TracQuest events. John and Kim, who posted briefly in this thread, are two of them.

Greg Fishman

I will give Todd's events a good rating as well. I have been two of his events, one at Mid Ohio and traveled to CA for an event at Laguna Seca. The event's were well run, everyone behaved and respected each other on track, etc.

I can attest to the fact that Todd isn't a cheap ***, while at dinner at the Laguna Seca event he shared his expensive wine with myself and my wife, wouldn't accept a penny in return. He lost money on his event at Mid Ohio but he didn't cheap out on any of the food for lunches or for the banquet.

If you haven't been to one of Todd's events you should shut up! Plain and simple, you should not be spouting out third or fourth hand information. It isn't fair to Todd nor anyone else who might believe what you are saying and not go to one of Todd's events because of it.

BTW Watt may or may not be a good guy, but he is far from a truely "valuable" poster. Show me 10 posts where he actually replies with true techincal or otherwise knowledge of Porsches.

Suwipin

I have been to several of Todd's event and I have also been to other groups' DE events as well. I would personally rank Todd's event at the top of my list simply because I got a lot of instructions and inputs on how to drive on the track in his events (top quality and down-to-earth instructors) and Todd pays extra attention to the safety of the participants, but hey that's just my personal impression

Btw this thread sounds like another "soap opera" episode of the rich and the reckless (just kidding)

Hubert

I'm in no way affiliated with TracQuest, but what you'll hear from people that actually track their cars (and have been doing so for years) TracQuest is a benchmark. Both in venue, and quality of services.
As far as prefering a "visibly open road" to a track event. Well, that says a lot...