mooty

always buy from ppl you know.
that's my motto.
if i dont know where u live, where your kids go to school, no sale... yes, i am serious. YMMV.

007DT

That car spend some time in GA at a shop I use to use w/ my old 6GT3. They wanted me to drive the car to see what I thought it was worth (this was about a year ago). It was a mess. Particularly the interior, then I drove it and determined that the trans needed work.

I saw it as an abused neglected track rat. I told them low $40's. they were shocked saying $$x is in this and $$y was just put into that. I shrugged and said, you asked my opinion. They said they were hoping for $60ish. I laughed and said good luck.

Take your lumps and buy better.. I think the 6GT3 will fit the bill just fine for what you are looking for. And you can get a very nice example for the mid$50's all day long. I sold mine in that neighborhood just over a year ago.

rbahr

Thanks 007DT,

The interior has a new set of seats and belts I had laying around (less than a year old) and I am cleaning that up.

The motor and transmission are both out and on stands, the transmission is apart and dog rings on 1st and second are bad - new 1st, 2nd gears and main shaft are $1200, there is something wrong with 5th - not sure what yet, needs some bearings, seals, synchros... Will probably do the LSD while I am in there, all this adds up quickly.

The motor will get the coolant lines updated, not sure what else, perhaps thermostat, water pump, plugs...

The car came with much of the original interior, suspension, exhaust, I can sell some of this off along with the cup exhaust - a little to loud for the street, not sure what it gets replaced with, I will replace motorsport centerlocks with the 5 lug set up (rims will be easier to find), might keep the seats not sure, OE exhaust can't have a lot of value...

The insurance company and I settled (I REALLY hope that the insurance company goes after the original owner and broker) which brings the cash outlay a lot closer to the number you mentioned, that said it is really clear to me that I got taken.

Interestingly enough, I have bought 2 Porsches remotely, and sold 1 - never a problem - it all depends on on the people involved...

Thanks

Ray

kk2

Check out Serge's 4.0 build thread for exhaust ideas if you want to keep the center exit.

If you keep the car and go through it like planned, you'll end up with one hell of a ride. You can't really dwell on the past though. I bought a virgin 6gt3 and still spent 25% of what it cost on maintenance and parts.

007DT

I forgot about the center lug....
Are you converting that back?

You may command a decent $$ for those wheels which IMO you'd be better off with 5-lug
Sounds like you are making lemonade out of it...

Good luck.

bobsan

sorry OP, original layout was doing my eyes in.....


Hi All,

I have a little (and somewhat embarrassing) story to share - and yes 'I should have known better'. I have a new-to-me 2004 GT3 - and here is the story:

The “How Not To Buy a Car For Car Guys” guide with a real world example
Well, being a certifiable ‘Car Guy’ as shown by scarred knuckles, too many tools, a seat in the garage so you can sit down and be comfortable while you work, and worst of all - cars for different situations – track cars, trucks (to haul the track car and parts for the track car), daily drivers – the nice and not so nice type, I have been going through quite a learning experience of the embarrassing kind.

After many years of exploring new ways to exceed the design envelope of my STi track car, and with the encouragement of my significantly better ¾, I decided to replace my not-so-trusty track car with something a bit more dependable. The short list was Corvette Z06, Boss 302 Mustang, Porsche GT3, built Porsche 914-6 and perhaps something like an Ariel Atom. After a number of conversations we decided that the GT3 was the most appealing because it was fast and reliable (pretty much like all the others on the list, but it was a Porsche, and there were no good 914’s to be found easily….).

In order to make the ‘event of the season’ – a pilgrimage the PCA-NER region does every year to Le Circuit Mount Tremblant (LCMT) and Calabogie in Ontario, Canada, for 3 days at each track with good music, good driving and great folks. I was going to need to act quickly, since my not-so-trusty STi had once again destroyed its far too expensive exhaust. Quickly in this case was about 2 ½ weeks.

I started looking and asking in ever-widening circles,: folks I knew, local mechanics, then I graduated to Rennlist, cars.com, autotrader.com, then moved on to eBay. Not very many 2004-2005 GT3’s available, but eBay finally proved to be the answer (although now I think I might have been asking the wrong question…)

I got in touch with the listing agent from an eBay ad for a GT3 – who turned out to be a broker and asked for a PPI with a Leak-down test, compression check, and the number of overruns. He agreed and told me the car was on the way to a shop for this, but he told me that I was second in line.

This was on Monday AM. He then put me in touch with the owner of the car, a pleasant sounding gentleman racer with too many race cars… I asked him all the questions I thought I should about condition and problems – and I’m told the car was tracked for DE’s only, came with lots of parts, no accidents, taken care of, yada yada yada. I finished off by asking ‘Was there anything I should know about the car that I had not asked about?’ ‘Nope’ was the reply… pretty darn good I was thinking… in addition to being a ‘gearhead’ I was also one o’ them GEEKS, so time to hit Google!

I did my Googling and found that my gentleman racer was head of a big (really big) construction company, the broker typically sold cars costing 3x-4x more than this one, found nothing bad or even a little off, and I felt like I was way too small to mess with (AKA screw over). In hind sight, why would I think big money is above screwing the ‘little’ guy – OK so I know computers but not people, I can still see that turnip truck I just fell off…

Later on Monday I hear that the other buyer drops out and it’s mine if I want to spend my summer allowance (just kidding summer and winter for several years). I ask about the PPI and am told the paperwork is not back but is on its way. I ask the name of the shop, and I call them. I neglect to ask about the PPI but ask about the general condition of the car, and it’s ‘generally’ good! I figure a well-taken-care-of track car should be generally good – interesting that you hear what you want to hear.

Tuesday I call and say ‘Let’s do it!!’ (with conviction) They say they have a truck that can get this car from Florida to Massachusetts by Friday that week. I wire the money (hey they won’t screw me, I’m a little guy), they get the car on the truck and Fed-Ex the title. I get the title on Thursday; the car arrives on Friday.
GREAT!!! It’s here. Really, really big truck – My wife takes me and we meet up with the driver, ‘Hey’, he says, ‘Give me a hand, car does not have an E Brake.’ I look and sure enough the E-brake assembly is not there, the cables are just hanging ‘What the Heck’ (or a close facsimile) … We get it off the truck, and the adventure begins 1 week before the car needs to be on the trailer heading north!!!

We load 2 sets of track tires and a spare set of rims into the truck, my wife heads home and I drive off into the sunset – not really, it’s the middle of the day, but it sounds good…
First thing I notice is that it grinds going into 1st (and 5th), and being that turnip truck kinda gearhead guy, I hope that the cables just need adjustment. I drive for ~1 hour and notice the voltmeter hovering about 11volts – not really good since it should be ~13 volts and not DROPPING… I get the car home, put a charger on it and find the alternator is not charging – I STILL don’t understand how Porsche can charge $1400 for a lousy alternator, or how a rebuilt one can cost $450…

I put the car on the lift and start looking around and find most of the water hoses are ready to fall off. I fix them and decide I need to throw (actually more like burn) money at the problem and bring the car to a very good local Porsche shop. I also take a moment to admire the shiny heads (Hint: the heads are a LOT shinier that the rest of the motor). Now my education starts.
I get home, call the shop in Florida that was to do the PPI and ask about it. ‘What PPI?’, they reply, ‘Nobody asked for a PPI’ – RUT-ROW, this is not good I think!

The local shop calls back and tells me that the shifter cables do need adjusting, but the transmission is indeed in need of ‘refreshing’ (gotta love that term, sounds so inexpensive), ‘Oh, by the way’, the shopkeep says, ‘one of those really, really nice forged magnesium wheels is cracked’.
Time to take stock:

• Car has shiny heads
• Transmission needs to be refreshed
• Down to one set of rims
• Car needs an alternator
• They lied about the PPI
• And let’s not forget that little question I asked: ‘Was there anything I should know about the car that I had not asked about?

Time to call be the Florida shop and ask about those shiny heads – turns out the previous owner did the money-shift thing – pretty much when ya try to go from 5th gear to 3rd and in your enthusiasm hit 1st. The motor makes a noise sorta like 200,000 loose dimes hitting the floor all at once, which is kinda interesting because if you pick up those dimes you might be able to pay to fix the now-very-quiet-motor.

Time to call the previous owner: ‘Oh yeah, I “zinged” the motor, I guess I forgot to mention it’, ‘What about the transmission?’ I ask. ‘Well, you don’t really need to use 1st gear’ was the reply – I am not kidding about both of these replies.

I finally got the receipts from the Florida shop that did the most recent work on this car and found that the motor had not 1, but 2 close encounters of the money-shift kind. These guys are completely unable to drive a standard (I am being nice here).

I am now officially pissed off and file a complaint with eBay, and get shuffled off to the insurance company, Auction Insurance Agency (AIA), that handles the eBay claims. Round 3 of fun starts.

Now I need to document everything, get estimates, and learn to read the fine print. Turns out that three of these ‘fine print are kinda interesting ( they become a lot more interesting later on):

1) AIA ONLY insures up to $50K
2) If the seller makes a good faith offer that the buyer rejects, Ebay and AIA have fulfilled their end of the bargain and need to do no more. Turns out that ‘good faith’ has its own fine print.
3) AIA ONLY covers Engine, Transmission, Frame, and Title – those ‘silly expensive’ (a euphemism for ‘Why would ANYONE put these on a street car’) rims are a don’t care, along with any other thing like a $1400 alternator

In addition to the documentation stage, I gotta wait ( patiently, which I never do well). My dialog with the broker goes like this:

Me, being my typical demanding self:

“Dear k8collection (name barely changed to protect me)

How would you like to handle this?

• I was informed that the car was not raced; only used for DE’s
• Prior to bidding, I had asked for a pre-purchase inspection, leak down test, and compression test. I followed up with the shop that I was told did the work and they informed me that they were never directed to perform such work.
• I was never informed that the motor suffered from a major event that required rebuilding portions of the motor (let alone two.)
• Per the ad, all original interior parts would come with the car. However, several interior parts were no initially delivered, including the center console, air bag computer, and emergency brake.
• Instead of 2 Recaro seats listed in the ad, there was only 1 - the second seat was an inferior product.
• The alternator did not work.
• One of the forged BBS rims was cracked, rendering it unusable - and the other three without a dance partner - BBS does not sell these any more
• The transmission grinds in 1st and 5th gears, requiring a rebuild”

And their response:

“Ray. Let me be clear with you. As it stands we acted as an intermediary between you and the seller. K8 had no financial involvement in this transaction. It is my opinion that your insistence on pressing the buy it now through eBay was in fact part of a plan to work the system after the fact to your advantage.

There is no bill of sale from K8 to you and no financial record between K8 and you. I will be contacting our eBay representative and apprising him of this and disputing the validity of any claim you present. From this point forward any conversation regarding the GT3 will be had between you and the seller. Also because of your tone and present course of action my recommendation to the seller will also be to cease any communication with you.” (name barely changed to protect me)

Well that went well! I wish everyone were this accommodating.

Now back to waiting, which I am learning is worse than I thought.

I hear back from ‘my guy’ at AIA who tells me that the broker/seller wants to buy the car back. Great I think, the foul taste of this transaction will be behind me and I will have cut my losses… All this brings me back to that pesky ‘fine print’; AIA ONLY insures up to $50k, car cost 58K, they would offer $50K, and the seller would offer $51K – all this turns out to be – wait for it – yep a ‘good faith’ offer. If I turn this down, I end up with nothing (except a bad transmission, more trophies for my wall of shame, AND an exciting summer experience to cherish)! With all that going for it, who could resist.

Turns out the ‘my guy’ at AIA really does have my back, and pushed through a settlement that is reasonable and that will cover most of the tranny rebuild – which as we might guess, is not particularly cheap for GT3s.

Stay tuned as our narrator, who really, really likes Click & Clack, and in particular, identifies with “Unencumbered by the Thought Process” gallantly delves into his transmission – or will he cry ‘Uncle’ and bring it to a shop… The saga continues. (Hint: He has been delving…)

rbahr

007DT,

I will end up making this work, but there will be a lot of sweat equity (and $$$) involved.

I will indeed be getting rid of the Motorsports center locks and a set of rims, A rear rim in the second set - the BBS Monoblocks that are in the picture has a crack, so there are only 3, and these are hard if not impossible to find - rears are 15lbs each, fronts are 12lbs each - amazing....

Thanks for the pointer on the exhaust, I would like a good header system with something that is not deafening - the car draws enough attention as it stands.

I also need to point out that the shop that last touched this car, I would not trust to change the air in my tires... water line brackets were missing, hoses were barely attached...

Ray

bobsan

its all about the engine I feel, if its still good I'd be inclined to hit them up for the box repair..BUT if that engine's been buzzed TWICE you could be in for monumental repair bill.

valves could be bent, rings broken, need to do leak down then re evaluate I think

If it were me: get what you can for it and cut your losses. EBay learnt.

bobsan

oh...and the alternator..... its always the bushes, easy and very cheap to replace.

rbahr

WRT to 'hitting them up' - does not work that way, get lawyers involved and they walk away with all the money, really, really hard to recover legal costs, this is to big for small claims, and to small for the 'big guns', we reached a settlement which will cover the tranny - with me doing all the R&R & teardown, I will be happy with that...

All valves have been replaced (both times ), I had the alternator replaced - threw money at that one since I did not have the time. Motor is strong at least it seems to be, had asked for leakdown, did not get one, better off not knowing at this point :-) I would not feel right about dumping something like this on someone else, If it comes down to it, I will tear the motor down, but not even close to that point yet.

I had to work hard to get all the receipts - and may not have all yet, but the heads have all been reworked 2x - 1st time was ~$13K, second was ~$8K, flywheel was replaced 2x, etc...

Bottom line - Get a PPI by independent shop on your nickle, physically look at the car or have a VERY trustworthy friend/acquaintance look, Do not depend on 1st impressions - EG I thought with this kind of inventory and $$$ why would they mess with me... turns out its simple 'Because they can'...

Ray

yelcab

Wow,
Just to think I bought my 2005 GT3 from a Rennlister without a dealer computer read or a PPI. And it went so well ...

Gofishracing

I was lucky as well. Rennlister & local PCA member. No PPI or computer read on modified car. I did have to do the LSD and some simple car set up. Car has been GREAT. I won't push my luck in the future.