ignition issue
04-15-2010, 01:38 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
ignition issue
During morning start ups sometimes as I turn the key nothing happens, not even a sound, 2-3 attempts and the car turns on normally.
Is this normal?
I have scheduled a dealer visit for next week.
TIA.
Sam
Is this normal?
I have scheduled a dealer visit for next week.
TIA.
Sam
04-15-2010, 03:13 PM
#2
Drifting
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Elk Grove, California
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No...why would you consider that as even remotely "normal" in a Porsche? It sounds like an ignition switch going out...contact isn't being made when you turn the key.
04-15-2010, 04:10 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
04-15-2010, 07:48 PM
#4
Race Director
My Turbo has never done this but my 02 Boxster did this the first time near Thousand Palms in CA on I-10 right after I filled up its gas tank at Chevron station.
Was so unexpected, out of character, I was left stunned. And car immobile on station's driveway blocking access to a pump island.
After a few minutes of fiddling and sitting engine started right up and for the next few days, months even, the symptom never reappeared.
Then it reappeared. The car started doing it again, but very intermittently and to make matters worse, to lull me into a false sense of security, the engine always started after a retry or two. Always.
I looked into various things: clutch interlock switch and key module RFID pill and found no reason to suspect either or anything else I considered.
Then, I bought the Turbo and left my Boxster at dealer's lot. Late at night, after a long (30 mile) $100 cab ride and with cab after dropping me off at dealership (closed of course) disappearing back from where it came.
The Boxster refused to start. No clicks, no noises, just the dash lights coming on as I turn the key to on and then when I turn the key to start, nothing.
Had just about given up and was going to try to catch the cab before he goot too far away when in desperation I gave it one last try.
The engine started. Against my usual routine, I didn't even let the engine warm up a bit but got the car moving pronto and home.
Very soon after that I took the Boxster to my local dealer. Tech told me it might be ignition switch. He tried to reproduce the symptom and engine started just fine the dozen or more times he tried to get the no start condition to appear.
Tech told me that it may not be the switch, and I thanked him for the info but told him I was willing to throw a new switch at the symptom. My cars must be dependable. If I can't trust a car to start and run and well just be reliable, dependable (and I take good care of my cars so it is not like I'm asking the impossible) I'll get rid of the car faster than you can higher taxes.
I told him to go ahead and replace the complete switch: the large assembly (casting) and the electrical part that fits on the end (way under the dash). The portion of the switch the key fits into was not replaced.
Side note: I had the electrical portion, purchased it at Audi dealer parts department. Cheaper than Porsche and same unit. In fact Porsche no longer offered the part separately. Tech told me Porsche found too many cars coming back with just the electrical portion replaced and decided that the whole unit should be replaced. Porsche found this resulted in far fewer comebacks.
Anyhow, after removing the old switch the Porshe tech looked over the old switch and could see nothing wrong with it. (I looked at it too, have it at home, and it looks to be in pretty good shape.)
In fact the tech said that for being in the car 7+ years and covering over 200K+ miles and experiencing uncounted starts it looked and felt to be in pretty darn good shape.
Might add that I do not use a key on a key chain. All my car keys are kept separate to avoid putting any wear/tear on the key switch from having to support a heavy and swinging ring of keys.
Anyhow, since the switch and switch assembly/casting was replaced the Boxster has never failed to start first time and every time.
Sincerely,
Macster.
04-15-2010, 08:18 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Macster thank you for such a thorough explanation of your problem. It seems like something with the ignition is about to fail and since the car's CPO is ending May 29-th, i better hurry, it may be covered.
Sam
Sam
04-16-2010, 12:13 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Trending Topics
04-16-2010, 12:51 PM
#8
Race Director
There is a way to bypass the switch but I don't recall how to do it. From my point of view, to bypass the switch to test it is about as much trouble to just replace the thing. But if the switch is bad, or acting up, better to replace the clutch interlock switch rather than the ignition switch, that's for sure.
My belief is if the switch comes under suspicion cause of age and miles, then replace it. The switch is not much very expensive and if you're limber you can replace it yourself. The cost is around $10 to $15 IRRC. I bought the clutch interlock switch and cruise control safety switch (which turns off cruise when the clutch pedal is depressed) and the brake light switch when the brake light switch wore out. Figured since I was "there" for the brake light switch I might as well replace the other switches.
In my case didn't make any difference. Apparently the problem was with the ignition switch since after its replacement the no start symptom has not appeared once.
But eliminate the clutch switch yourself or wait and let the tech do it when you take the car in.
Sincerely,
Macster.
04-19-2010, 10:40 AM
#9
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
now...add the headlight switch not turning on the lights, worked after couple of tries...
related to ignition issue?
car still scheduled for Thursday.
Sam
related to ignition issue?
car still scheduled for Thursday.
Sam
04-19-2010, 11:29 AM
#10
Race Director
The tech will know.
If the ignition switch proves to be faulty replacing it and *then* seeing if the headlight switch works ok again would be the way to go.
Now the short time the tech has with the car and the few tries the tech could give the headlight switch to try to get it to fail in front of him might find him unable to confirm the switch is bad. Thus after you get the car back you might once again see the headlights not working due to a bad headlight switch.
Sometimes just one thing at a time has to be taken care of.
Sincerely,
Macster.
04-28-2010, 02:06 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Update:
Dealer still has not found the source of malfunction after 4.5 days of diagnosing the ignition problem. The ignition switch and the clutch switch have been ruled out. Now they are focusing on related wiring.
Sam
Dealer still has not found the source of malfunction after 4.5 days of diagnosing the ignition problem. The ignition switch and the clutch switch have been ruled out. Now they are focusing on related wiring.
Sam
04-28-2010, 03:48 PM
#12
Race Director
He then tried to reproduce the no start by repeatedly starting the engine trying various pressures on the key, working the clutch pedal, and so on.
After maybe a dozen engine starts he told me it may not be the ignition switch.
I had him replace the ignition switch and I told him that I was willing to throw a switch at the symptom.
I got lucky. Apparently - since the symptom has not returned once in all the starts since the switch was replaced -- the switch was the problem. Should point out that while I didn't abuse the switch with a heavy key chain (just used a key by itself) the car was bought new in Jan 2002 and had covered around 230K miles. That's a lot of starts. That's a lot of ignition switch wear and tear. Which is one reason why I was not too afraid to gamble a new switch would not solve the problem.
(With the old switch out of the car the tech told me the switch wasn't in that bad of shape. He's seen worse.)
Now does this mean you should replace the ignition switch? No. I hate to throw parts at a symptom. But sometimes that's a reasonable action. Especially if one is faced with no other diagnostics options or very expensive diagnostics options.
OTOH, one could throw a new switch in the car and the symptom of course returns and then still be faced with more expensive diagnostics expense in hopes of finding the problem.
There's another possibility. A critical sensor is not working sometimes. The engine controller can't control the starter but it can deny the engine fuel and spark cause perhaps the sensor is one the engine controller requires to know when to turn on the injectors and when to fire the spark plugs.
One such sensor is the crankshaft position sensor. From this the engine controller knows when to turn on the injector for every cylinder and when to trigger the spark for every cylinder. (It also uses this to detect a weak cylinder or a misfiring cylinder by measuring the acceleration imparted to the flywheel during each cylinder's power stroke.)
It is possible the crankshaft position sensor is going bad. Or the connector is marginal. Or the sensor is contaminated with dust/dirt (perhaps combined with some oil from a small oil leak?) that once in while interferes with the signals from this sensor and without the signals the engine does not start.
Since emissions are not affected no error is recorded. And once working the sensor continues to work.
It is that initial engine start that is the problem.
Ask your tech what he thinks about this. He may have info that shoots my idea down or maybe he can confirm the sensor's not delivering the right data at the right time.
If the crankshaft position sensor (located on back of engine on passenger side of engine) is a cheap replacement job... If one is forced to throw parts a symptom might as well start with the cheaper less costly to replace parts first.
Sincerely,
Macster.
04-28-2010, 06:39 PM
#13
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Not sure ignition switch can be ruled out 100%. As I mentioned when I brought my Boxster in for not starting tech told me it could be an ignition switch.
He then tried to reproduce the no start by repeatedly starting the engine trying various pressures on the key, working the clutch pedal, and so on.
After maybe a dozen engine starts he told me it may not be the ignition switch.
I had him replace the ignition switch and I told him that I was willing to throw a switch at the symptom.
I got lucky. Apparently - since the symptom has not returned once in all the starts since the switch was replaced -- the switch was the problem. Should point out that while I didn't abuse the switch with a heavy key chain (just used a key by itself) the car was bought new in Jan 2002 and had covered around 230K miles. That's a lot of starts. That's a lot of ignition switch wear and tear. Which is one reason why I was not too afraid to gamble a new switch would not solve the problem.
(With the old switch out of the car the tech told me the switch wasn't in that bad of shape. He's seen worse.)
Now does this mean you should replace the ignition switch? No. I hate to throw parts at a symptom. But sometimes that's a reasonable action. Especially if one is faced with no other diagnostics options or very expensive diagnostics options.
OTOH, one could throw a new switch in the car and the symptom of course returns and then still be faced with more expensive diagnostics expense in hopes of finding the problem.
There's another possibility. A critical sensor is not working sometimes. The engine controller can't control the starter but it can deny the engine fuel and spark cause perhaps the sensor is one the engine controller requires to know when to turn on the injectors and when to fire the spark plugs.
One such sensor is the crankshaft position sensor. From this the engine controller knows when to turn on the injector for every cylinder and when to trigger the spark for every cylinder. (It also uses this to detect a weak cylinder or a misfiring cylinder by measuring the acceleration imparted to the flywheel during each cylinder's power stroke.)
It is possible the crankshaft position sensor is going bad. Or the connector is marginal. Or the sensor is contaminated with dust/dirt (perhaps combined with some oil from a small oil leak?) that once in while interferes with the signals from this sensor and without the signals the engine does not start.
Since emissions are not affected no error is recorded. And once working the sensor continues to work.
It is that initial engine start that is the problem.
Ask your tech what he thinks about this. He may have info that shoots my idea down or maybe he can confirm the sensor's not delivering the right data at the right time.
If the crankshaft position sensor (located on back of engine on passenger side of engine) is a cheap replacement job... If one is forced to throw parts a symptom might as well start with the cheaper less costly to replace parts first.
Sincerely,
Macster.
He then tried to reproduce the no start by repeatedly starting the engine trying various pressures on the key, working the clutch pedal, and so on.
After maybe a dozen engine starts he told me it may not be the ignition switch.
I had him replace the ignition switch and I told him that I was willing to throw a switch at the symptom.
I got lucky. Apparently - since the symptom has not returned once in all the starts since the switch was replaced -- the switch was the problem. Should point out that while I didn't abuse the switch with a heavy key chain (just used a key by itself) the car was bought new in Jan 2002 and had covered around 230K miles. That's a lot of starts. That's a lot of ignition switch wear and tear. Which is one reason why I was not too afraid to gamble a new switch would not solve the problem.
(With the old switch out of the car the tech told me the switch wasn't in that bad of shape. He's seen worse.)
Now does this mean you should replace the ignition switch? No. I hate to throw parts at a symptom. But sometimes that's a reasonable action. Especially if one is faced with no other diagnostics options or very expensive diagnostics options.
OTOH, one could throw a new switch in the car and the symptom of course returns and then still be faced with more expensive diagnostics expense in hopes of finding the problem.
There's another possibility. A critical sensor is not working sometimes. The engine controller can't control the starter but it can deny the engine fuel and spark cause perhaps the sensor is one the engine controller requires to know when to turn on the injectors and when to fire the spark plugs.
One such sensor is the crankshaft position sensor. From this the engine controller knows when to turn on the injector for every cylinder and when to trigger the spark for every cylinder. (It also uses this to detect a weak cylinder or a misfiring cylinder by measuring the acceleration imparted to the flywheel during each cylinder's power stroke.)
It is possible the crankshaft position sensor is going bad. Or the connector is marginal. Or the sensor is contaminated with dust/dirt (perhaps combined with some oil from a small oil leak?) that once in while interferes with the signals from this sensor and without the signals the engine does not start.
Since emissions are not affected no error is recorded. And once working the sensor continues to work.
It is that initial engine start that is the problem.
Ask your tech what he thinks about this. He may have info that shoots my idea down or maybe he can confirm the sensor's not delivering the right data at the right time.
If the crankshaft position sensor (located on back of engine on passenger side of engine) is a cheap replacement job... If one is forced to throw parts a symptom might as well start with the cheaper less costly to replace parts first.
Sincerely,
Macster.
Thank you again for your time in responding in such detail helping with my car trouble. I passed on the information about the crankshaft sensor to the service person. He'd called earlier saying they found one of the battery cells to be low so they asked my permission to install a new battery (as a troubleshooting step). The existing one is less than 2 years old, a Porsche battery. I had heard not so good things about the P brand battery but he didn't think so...I gave them the go ahead and I guess I just have to wait.
regards,
Sam
PS: on a positive note, my rental is a new Camaro and against my predictions...I like the car.
Last edited by Sam CS 05; 10-12-2010 at 02:14 PM.
04-28-2010, 09:38 PM
#14
Race Director
See if the new battery improves the engine no start symptom. I know a low battery can crank an engine just fine but not produce enough voltage to cause the coil(s) to generate a proper spark.
But in your case the engine doesn't even crank so the above doesn't apply.
But give the new battery a chance.
Sincerely,
Macster.
But in your case the engine doesn't even crank so the above doesn't apply.
But give the new battery a chance.
Sincerely,
Macster.