syncrofly

Hello all. New to the board, recent buyer. Bought my first 911 in SLC (2001 Turbo) from the Porsche dealer on Thursday of last week. Had them do a PPI and a 3rd party do a PPI. Spoke with the PO. Felt like I'd done my homework. Left knowing the tranmission had a syncro issue and a common dash issue.

Broke down day on Friday (day 2), one of the pulleys on the serpentine... towed to S Car Go in San Rafael. Common issue, I put some miles on it. Some shake out that's semi planned. Going to be a small fortune there, for something I've never seen break on another make... but I get it, and I replaced them all and the tensioner to make sure I was done with that repair/maintenance item and verified everything else hanging off the front of the motor was fine.

Went to prep for smog, and all 4 O2 sensors throw error codes, it and the exhaust/k24/tune etc. are 3 years and 10K miles old. Mechanic reset within 2 minutes they all throw error codes again. Mechanics diagnosis is all bad 02 sensors ($900 plus labor).

I actually don't mind R&R of the Fabspeed muffler... and while I am there want to do what's right. Assuming that the headers can be re-used and the hi flow cats aren't neccessarily bad....

So two questions:

1. Should I try to get some $$ out of the dealer? They gave me a clean bill of health on the emissions section of the PPI and these O2 sensors are throwing codes within minutes of being reset.... would have been in any basic ODBII interface.... can anyone think of any other explanation (aftermarket chip tuning defaults into weird mode?)? I put 850 miles between me and their PPI in two days before I got to where I am, but all 4 going bad in that time would seem ridiculously coincidental.... so either they were all bad or something strange is going on. I expected some emissions concerns, but not basic fault codes from inoperable sensors. It seems fraudulent.

2. How much of the exhaust side do I do while I am there.... I can handle a -little less power for a little more restrictive/quiet exhaust.... presuming the k24's are good, and the headers and most the "pipes" look good... what do I replace? Seems like I'm in for $900 for o2 sensors and 6 hours of R&R should I put in a new muffler?

I love the car, and there is no going back, but don't want to trade it for my marriage or my daughters college education Otherwise I'd be tempted to put all new chip, turbos, exhaust etc.

I've been accused of being "too nice" by my friends in other automotive concerns... and since I'm new to the Porsche scene having a hard time gauging what the appropriate reaction is. Both in terms of how I deal with the dealer, and how to draw a line with a new mechanic I'm just getting to know but on day 2 I'm facing $5K+ considerations.

Thanks for all advice, rookie here.... watching my new rim money evaporate .... lol. Save the rims!

Kelly

Macster

All 4 sensors being bad at the same time is based on my experience rare.

Do you know the error codes?

Any deviation from stock is always suspect and this engine has plenty of that: turbos, exhaust, cats, 'tune'.

High flow cats may not have enough surface area may not retain enough heat to effectively process exhaust gases.

Additionally the added boost and heat from the larger turbos may have cooked the sensors and the converters.

Replacing the mufflers doesn't help you. The converters are suspect. These come right after the turbo, one on each side. Each converter has 2 O2 sensors, one immediately before the converter and one immediately after.

It is by these sensors the DME controls air/fuel mixture (the #1 sensors are wide band too for more precise fueling) and the #2 sensors are used to monitor the performance of the converters.

It is these sensors, both the one ahead of the converters and the ones after the converters that are bad, suspected of being bad, at least based on what your mechanic has to say.

Without knowing the codes I can't say for sure, and even if I knew the codes, I'm not a trained professional, but if the codes do point to simply bad sensors that might be the place to start.

I mean if you trust your mechanic then do as he says.

But for $900 I'd like to pretty sure the sensors are really bad and not just throwing codes because of something else wrong, like MAF, exhaust system leaks, and so on.

As for getting any money from the selling dealer...

Call the selling dealer and give it your mechanic's take on what's wrong. Then see if the selling dealer can/will work with the local shop to cover all or part of the cost of putting the car right, right enough to pass smog, essentially putting the car into the condition you were led to believe it was in when you bought the car.

Before you call, gather up all paperwork you can that you can use to remind the dealer it assured you the car was ok and up to snuff.

Not sure how you can work this into the conversation, and maybe you don't want to as it can be a blunt instrument, but 'consumer fraud' can put the fear of God into a dealer. 'course, you'd have to file a complaint in the seller's locale, but still...

Sincerely,

Macster.

ltdan12a

The whole reason you spend the money on a PPI is for the peace of mind that you're making a sound purchase. If you had two PPI's done, and neither of them caught those things, I'd have issues with both parties...

Gotta ask... you bought the car from the dealer a week ago... No warranty?

syncrofly

Apparently Porsche won't sell a warranty once its 7 years outta date. Well see what the dealer says tomorrow.

The 4 bad o2 sensors does seem too wierd to be it. The other odd thing the dealer mentioned is below average boost... On a kit with k24s... Now saying it out loud seems obvious the mix is off.

Hmmmm

adam_

The dealer mentioned 'below average boost' and 'syncro issues' yet you proceeded?

What do you think a PPI is? A warranty?

Your issue is crappy PPIs, dealers that you ignored, and quite possibly a new mechanic who is guessing about your issues....

How can the O2s throw 'immediate codes'?? Did the car have a CEL/SES light on the whole time (ie at purchase and during PPI)?? I don't understand it passes PPIs and you see no codes, yet now you are getting codes. When did the engine light come on?

Last930

Yikes! What is the common dash issue??

joelesmith

sorry to hear about your troubles. you should look into a duramatric

adam_

(FYI- "Immediate O2 sensor codes" are usually a "O2 pre-heat circuit faiure" which translates to "sensor not plugged in" or "no sensor".... to have ALL 4 fail nternally all at once to generate immediate opens is astronomical.

Any 'bad' O2 sensor will start fine with no codes...and only after the car warms up and tries to go into closed loop control will you get a sensor code due to bad signals. But a disconnected sensor will code right away.)

adam_

True

You'd be surprised, actually.

Some people have issues with paying to support a business owned by Internet Brands......... simple. as. that.

Kevin

I find it hard to believe that all 4 O2's are bad all at once. However, they could be placed in the wrong position. You need to verify that the widebands are pre CAT.

Syncrofly I have a datalogger and code reader that I sell. In situations like this it might actually be a "COST" saving tool. Not only will I be able to diagnosis the problem but your ECU TUNE/Code can be changed quickly!

You need to try to verify from the previous owner when your plugs, MAF, O2 were changed?

joelesmith

Now, that's a guy you need to listen to.

adam_

Kevin, can you comment on the "immediate O2 sensor codes" and if one can draw any conclusions about the 'immediacy' of the fault?

Thx

A

Macster

Well, as I touched upon in my earlier reply though I probably didn't make it as clear as I should have, you need or better yet your mechanic needs to eliminate other possible causes that can flag the sensors bad.

Below average boost can mean an air leak (or exhaust leak) and either one can affect the proper functioning of the sensors.

Also, knowing what the error codes are helps. Sensors can experience heater failure, which can arise from several failure modes, to a signal problem. IOWs, the sensor is just *not* sensing properly.

Even with an over the counter OBD2 code reader/data viewer you can perform some O2 sensor tests to possibly confirm the sensors are really bad and why.

(My years old Actron (I forget the model #) -- it is so 'old' it doesn't even support CAN -- offers me the abilty to perform some sensor tests. And I have an AutoXRay scan tool here at the office with which I can also do some sensor tests.)

There are of course more expensive tools of this type available. I have no experience with these however.

Sincerely,

Macster.

nick49

Sorry for your problems. My bet is that you are throwing codes because you may have 100 cell cats that are less restrictive. It's very common with a high performance exhaust system. You most likely need to add some O2 sensor spacers to keep from throwing codes. There's a wealth of info on this. Low boost is most likely a leak in one of the several hose clamped joints. This is relatively cheap and easy to fix, usually just tightening a clamp. You may need to put a stock exhaust on to pass emissions as sometimes they do a visual as well as read pending OBDII codes. If you have a syncro going, it's most commonly 2nd gear. Shift it slow and deliberate in 2nd especially coming down from 3rd and you should be OK for a long time.

Nikon FM

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-St...#ht_500wt_1387

The above will eliminate the problem for the aft locations.