Dilemma: GT2 Slave mod or just replace with stock parts? My slave is toast
05-02-2012, 10:15 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Dilemma: GT2 Slave mod or just replace with stock parts? My slave is toast
I am going to try to go into as much detail here with the issues I was/am having in case I'm misguided in what's wrong with the car. For reference my car is stock (except for lightweight wheels) and I'm currently in the Portland, OR area. I hope you guys can help, but if not at least I'll have successfully vented about these frustrations.
History: Car sat for 2 months plugged in and then was driven around town for a week or two before this started. I replaced just the accumulator last year (only a month after purchasing the car) when I started to get that spongy clutch pedal feel.
Symptoms:
I started the car and was bringing the revs up and letting the clutch out, but the car didn't want to move (as if the clutch was not engaging). If I pumped the clutch a couple times, brought the car into neutral and then back to 1st or reverse, it would work. As I've driven the car this has only gotten worse and have had to retry to get the thing going as many as 3-4 times just the other day.
When this is happening sometimes I also get a weird feeling in the clutch pedal where it's reluctant to go all the way to the floor and is very tough but only at the last 10-15% of its travel. If I can get the car to engage and get going, this will not occur on that particular try (only when it's being reluctant to move).
Another issue is that pentosin seems to be flowing freely on top of the plastic panel on the driver's side as well as leaking down on some hoses and even a bundle of wires. It's been enough to get all the way to the garage floor on the one day I skipped driving it. It worries me given what I've heard about how this stuff kills rubber.
I told myself after replacing the clutch accumulator last year that if this stuff broke again I'd just do the conversion and be done with the headache.
Talked first with Kevin @ UMW on the off chance he would do the conversion. I didn't even get the chance to ask before he shared his dim view of this mod and warned me that it could hurt my resale value. He also stated that if the slave is gone then the accumulator was stressed and both should be replaced in tandem.
I got quoted $1100 parts and labor from a local independent (Matrix Integrated) just for a slave replacement alone. Their tech said if I replaced just the accumulator last year there should be no reason why I'd need to replace both this time. They'll warrantee their work for 1 year and also don't see the point of the GT2 conversion.
Sunset Imports (a local Porsche dealer) quoted me about $1700 parts and labor for both a slave and accumulator replacement and said both should be done together. They also will rent me a car for a few days and will warrantee their work for 2 years.
I also talked to Alex from Sharkwerks about this, and he quoted me around $1700 parts and labor for a GT2 slave conversion, so now I'm just weighing my options.
It seems that comments on the GT2 conversion range all the way from stupid and unnecessary to one of the best improvements one can make to the car (depending on who you talk to). I'm hoping there isn't something else entirely wrong with my car as well.
If I go the GT2 slave route I hope there's a shop that's done them in the PNW and I don't have to road trip all the way to Sharkwerks on a bad slave (but willing to drive for the right reasons). Matrix has a Turbo in its shop with a GT2 conversion, so I may just drive over there tomorrow morning to try it out and at least get my oil changed and get looked at. I'm reluctant to drive the car anywhere that isn't directly to get it repaired (given how quickly the situation has worsened).
Anyone have any input? I know this post was long so I appreciate anyone taking the time to read it over.
History: Car sat for 2 months plugged in and then was driven around town for a week or two before this started. I replaced just the accumulator last year (only a month after purchasing the car) when I started to get that spongy clutch pedal feel.
Symptoms:
I started the car and was bringing the revs up and letting the clutch out, but the car didn't want to move (as if the clutch was not engaging). If I pumped the clutch a couple times, brought the car into neutral and then back to 1st or reverse, it would work. As I've driven the car this has only gotten worse and have had to retry to get the thing going as many as 3-4 times just the other day.
When this is happening sometimes I also get a weird feeling in the clutch pedal where it's reluctant to go all the way to the floor and is very tough but only at the last 10-15% of its travel. If I can get the car to engage and get going, this will not occur on that particular try (only when it's being reluctant to move).
Another issue is that pentosin seems to be flowing freely on top of the plastic panel on the driver's side as well as leaking down on some hoses and even a bundle of wires. It's been enough to get all the way to the garage floor on the one day I skipped driving it. It worries me given what I've heard about how this stuff kills rubber.
I told myself after replacing the clutch accumulator last year that if this stuff broke again I'd just do the conversion and be done with the headache.
Talked first with Kevin @ UMW on the off chance he would do the conversion. I didn't even get the chance to ask before he shared his dim view of this mod and warned me that it could hurt my resale value. He also stated that if the slave is gone then the accumulator was stressed and both should be replaced in tandem.
I got quoted $1100 parts and labor from a local independent (Matrix Integrated) just for a slave replacement alone. Their tech said if I replaced just the accumulator last year there should be no reason why I'd need to replace both this time. They'll warrantee their work for 1 year and also don't see the point of the GT2 conversion.
Sunset Imports (a local Porsche dealer) quoted me about $1700 parts and labor for both a slave and accumulator replacement and said both should be done together. They also will rent me a car for a few days and will warrantee their work for 2 years.
I also talked to Alex from Sharkwerks about this, and he quoted me around $1700 parts and labor for a GT2 slave conversion, so now I'm just weighing my options.
It seems that comments on the GT2 conversion range all the way from stupid and unnecessary to one of the best improvements one can make to the car (depending on who you talk to). I'm hoping there isn't something else entirely wrong with my car as well.
If I go the GT2 slave route I hope there's a shop that's done them in the PNW and I don't have to road trip all the way to Sharkwerks on a bad slave (but willing to drive for the right reasons). Matrix has a Turbo in its shop with a GT2 conversion, so I may just drive over there tomorrow morning to try it out and at least get my oil changed and get looked at. I'm reluctant to drive the car anywhere that isn't directly to get it repaired (given how quickly the situation has worsened).
Anyone have any input? I know this post was long so I appreciate anyone taking the time to read it over.
05-03-2012, 08:37 AM
#2
Instructor
I don't understand "dim view of GT2 mod" and "hurt resale value"
I bought my car with it already done - in fact, I was looking for a car that had this done already so I would not have to go thru it. So I cannot help you with feel vs stock.
If you have problematic designs (accumulator / slave and rear wing rams) why would you replace with stock <will likely have same problem> when you can eliminate the problem for about the same cost?
There is a good saying that goes with German cars "do it right or don't do it at all"...sounds like you need to better understand the drawbacks - if any- of the GT2 mod....I'm not seeing any issues.
I bought my car with it already done - in fact, I was looking for a car that had this done already so I would not have to go thru it. So I cannot help you with feel vs stock.
If you have problematic designs (accumulator / slave and rear wing rams) why would you replace with stock <will likely have same problem> when you can eliminate the problem for about the same cost?
There is a good saying that goes with German cars "do it right or don't do it at all"...sounds like you need to better understand the drawbacks - if any- of the GT2 mod....I'm not seeing any issues.
05-03-2012, 09:22 AM
#3
Rennlist Member
Slave is $500 part, accum is $150 part (round numbers). $1,100 to replace is a good deal. Will it fail again? Maybe. Mine has failed twice. But I had both replaced at dealership (under CPO), and second time was out of CPO but under 2 year warranty. I'm switching over to single mass FW and upgraded cltuch, so OEM power assist is needed. (GT2 has dual mass BTW). If it fails within 2 years I take it back to dealer for warranty work.
While dealer is quoting you more, 2 year warranty is NICE.
While dealer is quoting you more, 2 year warranty is NICE.
05-03-2012, 12:26 PM
#4
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My dim view of the GT2/GT3 mod is because most folks just install a flash and a exhaust. Rarely do these people hit the track and most drive the car everyday. A small percentage will go forward with more mods.
It is my opinion that the slave failure occurs on every car on average once every four years. The odds of it happening twice is rare. For folks that drive there car daily my recommendation is to KEEP the stock system in place. The exception to the rule is "IF" one loves to take there car to the track.
I asked the OP if he tracked his car, and if he tends to keep his cars for a long time or sell them rather quickly. My recommendation was that there was no need to install the GT2 slave conversion.
Two major negatives that need to be looked at is "IF" you need to sell your car for whatever reason, you limit yourself when you sell the car. It has already happened to one of my customers. It was picked up on the PPI and the interested buyer asked to have the stock system installed. The monies discussed made the buyer balk. You paid for the GT2 conversion and you will have to pay to have the new stock parts put back on. I mention this because no one has.. Lastly, there have been folks that just don't like the required left foot pressure to activate the clutch. You are looking at a 25 to 35% increase in pedal pressure.
Most folks complain about the accumulator failing and state the hard pedal "feel" >> the advice on the forum is to dump the system? Okay, you dump the stock system to give you a clutch that has no assist. That doesn't make sense to me for a $128.00 part. Losing your assist, and spending more monies for the conversion. I realize that this discussion is for the slave failure and one must sit down and really look at how they drive there car.
For myself, I do have cars that I own with the GT2 slave. I do like it. However, my views would change if I had to commute everyday into Seattle and park downtown, likewise San Francisco. My views for most 996TT owners with stock cars > pay the monies for the repair. In most ownership stints you will likely have to replace it once. The Porsche dealer will give you a 2 year warranty on labor and parts.
Long time forum members that have owned these cars since new like Dock, Wross, and Macster could be called on to give there SLAVE failure rates.
It is my opinion that the slave failure occurs on every car on average once every four years. The odds of it happening twice is rare. For folks that drive there car daily my recommendation is to KEEP the stock system in place. The exception to the rule is "IF" one loves to take there car to the track.
I asked the OP if he tracked his car, and if he tends to keep his cars for a long time or sell them rather quickly. My recommendation was that there was no need to install the GT2 slave conversion.
Two major negatives that need to be looked at is "IF" you need to sell your car for whatever reason, you limit yourself when you sell the car. It has already happened to one of my customers. It was picked up on the PPI and the interested buyer asked to have the stock system installed. The monies discussed made the buyer balk. You paid for the GT2 conversion and you will have to pay to have the new stock parts put back on. I mention this because no one has.. Lastly, there have been folks that just don't like the required left foot pressure to activate the clutch. You are looking at a 25 to 35% increase in pedal pressure.
Most folks complain about the accumulator failing and state the hard pedal "feel" >> the advice on the forum is to dump the system? Okay, you dump the stock system to give you a clutch that has no assist. That doesn't make sense to me for a $128.00 part. Losing your assist, and spending more monies for the conversion. I realize that this discussion is for the slave failure and one must sit down and really look at how they drive there car.
For myself, I do have cars that I own with the GT2 slave. I do like it. However, my views would change if I had to commute everyday into Seattle and park downtown, likewise San Francisco. My views for most 996TT owners with stock cars > pay the monies for the repair. In most ownership stints you will likely have to replace it once. The Porsche dealer will give you a 2 year warranty on labor and parts.
Long time forum members that have owned these cars since new like Dock, Wross, and Macster could be called on to give there SLAVE failure rates.
05-03-2012, 12:42 PM
#6
Nordschleife Master
My dim view of the GT2/GT3 mod is because most folks just install a flash and a exhaust. Rarely do these people hit the track and most drive the car everyday. A small percentage will go forward with more mods.
It is my opinion that the slave failure occurs on every car on average once every four years. The odds of it happening twice is rare. For folks that drive there car daily my recommendation is to KEEP the stock system in place. The exception to the rule is "IF" one loves to take there car to the track.
I asked the OP if he tracked his car, and if he tends to keep his cars for a long time or sell them rather quickly. My recommendation was that there was no need to install the GT2 slave conversion.
Two major negatives that need to be looked at is "IF" you need to sell your car for whatever reason, you limit yourself when you sell the car. It has already happened to one of my customers. It was picked up on the PPI and the interested buyer asked to have the stock system installed. The monies discussed made the buyer balk. You paid for the GT2 conversion and you will have to pay to have the new stock parts put back on. I mention this because no one has.. Lastly, there have been folks that just don't like the required left foot pressure to activate the clutch. You are looking at a 25 to 35% increase in pedal pressure.
Most folks complain about the accumulator failing and state the hard pedal "feel" >> the advice on the forum is to dump the system? Okay, you dump the stock system to give you a clutch that has no assist. That doesn't make sense to me for a $128.00 part. Losing your assist, and spending more monies for the conversion. I realize that this discussion is for the slave failure and one must sit down and really look at how they drive there car.
For myself, I do have cars that I own with the GT2 slave. I do like it. However, my views would change if I had to commute everyday into Seattle and park downtown, likewise San Francisco. My views for most 996TT owners with stock cars > pay the monies for the repair. In most ownership stints you will likely have to replace it once. The Porsche dealer will give you a 2 year warranty on labor and parts.
Long time forum members that have owned these cars since new like Dock, Wross, and Macster could be called on to give there SLAVE failure rates.
It is my opinion that the slave failure occurs on every car on average once every four years. The odds of it happening twice is rare. For folks that drive there car daily my recommendation is to KEEP the stock system in place. The exception to the rule is "IF" one loves to take there car to the track.
I asked the OP if he tracked his car, and if he tends to keep his cars for a long time or sell them rather quickly. My recommendation was that there was no need to install the GT2 slave conversion.
Two major negatives that need to be looked at is "IF" you need to sell your car for whatever reason, you limit yourself when you sell the car. It has already happened to one of my customers. It was picked up on the PPI and the interested buyer asked to have the stock system installed. The monies discussed made the buyer balk. You paid for the GT2 conversion and you will have to pay to have the new stock parts put back on. I mention this because no one has.. Lastly, there have been folks that just don't like the required left foot pressure to activate the clutch. You are looking at a 25 to 35% increase in pedal pressure.
Most folks complain about the accumulator failing and state the hard pedal "feel" >> the advice on the forum is to dump the system? Okay, you dump the stock system to give you a clutch that has no assist. That doesn't make sense to me for a $128.00 part. Losing your assist, and spending more monies for the conversion. I realize that this discussion is for the slave failure and one must sit down and really look at how they drive there car.
For myself, I do have cars that I own with the GT2 slave. I do like it. However, my views would change if I had to commute everyday into Seattle and park downtown, likewise San Francisco. My views for most 996TT owners with stock cars > pay the monies for the repair. In most ownership stints you will likely have to replace it once. The Porsche dealer will give you a 2 year warranty on labor and parts.
Long time forum members that have owned these cars since new like Dock, Wross, and Macster could be called on to give there SLAVE failure rates.
I was thinking about the conversion when my slave will go for the first time,but now there's no doubt in my mind that I will just replace the slave/accumulator and that's it.
05-03-2012, 02:43 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks for your comments Kevin. I hope I'm not out of line posting what we discussed on the board.
I'm gonna go try out a car that has had the conversion done and then most likely drop it off at the dealer. The trouble is that whenever coming from the very boosted clutch of the Turbo, everything else seems stiff. I owned my Subaru STi for 5 years and never had an issue with the clutch pedal. Driving the Turbo for 2 months and then getting back in the STi (before it sold), I thought something was wrong with the car's clutch. Little did I know I'd just gotten used to a very easy pedal. This is why I don't think I'll be swayed by getting in a GT2 slave modded car (or GT2/GT3) as initially the pedal effort seems very high. Coming from a car with a stiffer clutch into the Turbo, it seems overly boosted and as if it has no effort required at all.
I'm gonna go try out a car that has had the conversion done and then most likely drop it off at the dealer. The trouble is that whenever coming from the very boosted clutch of the Turbo, everything else seems stiff. I owned my Subaru STi for 5 years and never had an issue with the clutch pedal. Driving the Turbo for 2 months and then getting back in the STi (before it sold), I thought something was wrong with the car's clutch. Little did I know I'd just gotten used to a very easy pedal. This is why I don't think I'll be swayed by getting in a GT2 slave modded car (or GT2/GT3) as initially the pedal effort seems very high. Coming from a car with a stiffer clutch into the Turbo, it seems overly boosted and as if it has no effort required at all.
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05-03-2012, 03:21 PM
#8
Drifting
I think it's got a lot to do with what type of clutch you're used to. I've daily-driven vehicles with pretty heavy clutches, and when I first drove a GT3, it seemed like a pretty light clutch to me. Other people thought it was pretty stiff. I really don't think that the GT2 slave cylinder upgrade would be that difficult to get used to, even daily-driving, but that's just my opinion. I also suspect that the percentage of buyers that would want the stock setup put back in is very small. If they are that concerned with how heavy the clutch is, then they should probably be looking at a Tiptronic. If they are concerned with reliability because it's modified, they haven't done their homework.
05-03-2012, 03:24 PM
#9
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Look, how many times have you called me for information? You asked for my advice and opinion. I knew from previous conversation how you were leaning with repairs and your deep concerns for repairs and the "cost" I told you that you would be best suited to leave the stock hydraulic assisted slave in place. If money is not a concern to you and you WANT a more reactive pedal feel. Spend your upgrade monies to get what you want. A failed slave requires money to fix. The failed slaves have been reported over and over. You either do it for a upgrade to go to the track or for a stiffer pedal or because you want to spend some monies. Putting on a GT2 hydraulic slave CAN fail and there has been threads about guys who have had to replace the GT2 slave. They are not immune from failure. Doing the GT2 slave to SAVE monies just to beat the hydraulic failure rate is not a rash decision. Couple that with no desire to upgrade the stock clutch. Again, most folks that drive there car on the street to work and do not put there car on the track will not likely have a failed slave the 2nd time. You would have to own the car for 8 years to fall into that column of failures. And I would still recommend the STOCK hydraulic slave. Again, if it is NOT a money concern and you want a upgraded pedal, go for it. However, the warning still exists when you sell your car. Most buyers want and are looking for a stock car, they will require you to lower your price, refit the factory hardware or walk.
Buying a used car will require repairs.. If there is no service history on the slave repair> plan on one failing. I would also say that as these cars age the coolant fitting repairs are starting to rival slave failures. The cost for dropping the engine and repairing the fittings under the manifold run between $2800 to $3600.. Ouch.. Folks that is the repair that I would be saving your repair dollars for.
Buying a used car will require repairs.. If there is no service history on the slave repair> plan on one failing. I would also say that as these cars age the coolant fitting repairs are starting to rival slave failures. The cost for dropping the engine and repairing the fittings under the manifold run between $2800 to $3600.. Ouch.. Folks that is the repair that I would be saving your repair dollars for.
05-03-2012, 10:16 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
I knew from previous conversation how you were leaning with repairs and your deep concerns for repairs and the "cost" I told you that you would be best suited to leave the stock hydraulic assisted slave in place. If money is not a concern to you and you WANT a more reactive pedal feel. Spend your upgrade monies to get what you want.
I dropped the car off at the dealer for a stock part replacement today. I tried the car that had a conversion today, and it was massively stiff. I doubt it was representative of how a properly done kit would feel as that should feel like a GT2 and I doubt Porsche would even sell a car with a clutch pedal this stiff. Unfortunately the dealer had no GT3 or GT2 cars on the lot, so I feel as though I had little choice here. The only other alternative would have been to garage store the car and have no mode of transportation and hold out hope a GT2 or GT3 would show up locally somewhere so I could try out its clutch pedal.
On another note, has anyone sought reimbursement from Porsche for repairs of this nature? It seems as though it's not a matter of if these things fail but when, so if that's true I feel Porsche assume some responsibility to remedy such an issue.
I really wish I could have made a more informed decision here. The slave is being ordered and won't be in until Mon/Tues. I just feel poor about all of this as I was unable to objectively compare my options.
05-05-2012, 11:58 AM
#11
Race Director
thats a joke right?
05-05-2012, 12:44 PM
#12
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i've had two tt's and replaced three accumulators and two slaves. i still prefer the stock hydraulically assisted system, although clearly it can be problematic. i would stay with stock components as i like the assisted clutch feel, or perhaps i'm just used to it by now. i also agree with the assessment that once you replace the components you're good for quite some time. it's not as if they fail daily, and in fact ( imo ) the more you drive, the less they fail.
05-05-2012, 02:54 PM
#13
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stiffness and resale type issues aside, doesn't the mod give you more feedback on the engagement point? I'm about to have this done with a lwfw so this is kind of a question to those of you that have it.
05-05-2012, 03:12 PM
#14
I have both the LWFW (UMW clutch kit, flawless to date) and this mod.
Love it.
Better feel. It is fine by me in traffic. No, I don't live in an urban area any more, but when I didi, it was fine there too. I find the stock option too vague for any precision work....this makes stuff much more predictable for me. The LWFW is super too.
Had a few accumulators and a slave die in short order...I was just sick of paying for it and in one case, be left stranded at a DE ....no clutch on track.
Try to find a real gt3 and feel that....
Jeff
Love it.
Better feel. It is fine by me in traffic. No, I don't live in an urban area any more, but when I didi, it was fine there too. I find the stock option too vague for any precision work....this makes stuff much more predictable for me. The LWFW is super too.
Had a few accumulators and a slave die in short order...I was just sick of paying for it and in one case, be left stranded at a DE ....no clutch on track.
Try to find a real gt3 and feel that....
Jeff
Last edited by jcb-memphis; 05-05-2012 at 04:15 PM.
05-05-2012, 03:46 PM
#15
I also just did the mod. I agree with Kevin's assessment except I don't think it is a mod for just track. I don't use the car as a DD and not really any city stop-an-go traffic. I like the feel much better.