snapping lugs! any help??
06-18-2014, 04:26 PM
#17
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they are somehow compromised! i bought (3) four packs last night at auto parts store. i neg;lected to mention earlier that a few of them in the SEALED packaging! had discoloration that looked like rust in the center of the threaded section. some were fine. this is how they are snapping i suppose? what's with a rust colored section of a NEW lug bolt ?!
06-20-2014, 03:00 AM
#18
Drifting
I'd bet the wheels are machined improperly and the lug bolts are aligning with the holes in the wheel when tightened. This is forcing the bolts into a stressed condition, not relaxed as it should be. Because the bolts are abnormally stressed and hard, they snap. A bolt of a lesser hardness is generally more malleable and will conform or bend as needed without breaking.
A torque of 100 ft lbs is nothing even for a poor quality bolt in this diameter. 5 bolts in this size will hold a wheel securely no matter how aggressive you drive. Give one of your wheels to a good machinist and he can check concentricity of the PCD on a rotab. You may also be able to check bolt to wheel interface with dykem. Personally, I'd get rid of the wheels and go something better quality. Sadly price does not assure quality, and cheap wheels are not necessarily bad.
A torque of 100 ft lbs is nothing even for a poor quality bolt in this diameter. 5 bolts in this size will hold a wheel securely no matter how aggressive you drive. Give one of your wheels to a good machinist and he can check concentricity of the PCD on a rotab. You may also be able to check bolt to wheel interface with dykem. Personally, I'd get rid of the wheels and go something better quality. Sadly price does not assure quality, and cheap wheels are not necessarily bad.
06-20-2014, 09:19 AM
#19
thx for the input nick. i don't suspect the wheels but at this point. anyones guess is good. meantime, i'm searching for a stud conversion that'll fit. i really don't want to be lugging ( sorry ) the wheels around looking for a machinist! that and new wheels are in my future anyway. thx again.
06-20-2014, 01:41 PM
#20
Rennlist Member
Personally I think it is electrolysis between the wheel hub and lug. Two dissimilar metals will seize the lug nut. That's why I suggested anti seize. If the wheels were off one would think it would cause a cross threading problem, and that would be evident on the threads.
06-20-2014, 02:43 PM
#21
Personally I think it is electrolysis between the wheel hub and lug. Two dissimilar metals will seize the lug nut. That's why I suggested anti seize. If the wheels were off one would think it would cause a cross threading problem, and that would be evident on the threads.
06-20-2014, 02:50 PM
#22
Race Director
i'm currently running forgestar wheels in 9 x 12 fitment. i continue to snap wheel lugs at an alarming rate.
it began when i first fit them and used the shiny lugs of a presumably asian origin
and although i have used a number of different kinds of bolts, they still are conical 14mm/1.5 in bolts. pretty standard fare. since converting to rwd i am snapping them in half, and just removed wheels to get bumpers off etc and found three more bolts had sheared! this after changing out for new rear rubber a month ago. all bolts torqued to spec, at the time.
i realize i'm putting some power down with the combination of my wavetrac tbd/lsd and roughly 475+rwhp and a lot of cambered turn powered throttling out of apexes?! but this is insane and potentially quite dangerous. so what is next?! do i drop the few hun on the tikore titanium? and will that cure this? i'm wondering now if it's the wheels themselves? they are not "hubcentric", but that added spacer ring shouldn't have an impact on this issue. the lugs do seem to have some discoloration ( water rust?? ) but i dry the wheels as best i can if/when i ever wash the car lol
torquing to 90 - 96 ft lbs. any info, comments/advice or whatever is greatly appreciated. scary proposition this....
it began when i first fit them and used the shiny lugs of a presumably asian origin
and although i have used a number of different kinds of bolts, they still are conical 14mm/1.5 in bolts. pretty standard fare. since converting to rwd i am snapping them in half, and just removed wheels to get bumpers off etc and found three more bolts had sheared! this after changing out for new rear rubber a month ago. all bolts torqued to spec, at the time.i realize i'm putting some power down with the combination of my wavetrac tbd/lsd and roughly 475+rwhp and a lot of cambered turn powered throttling out of apexes?! but this is insane and potentially quite dangerous. so what is next?! do i drop the few hun on the tikore titanium? and will that cure this? i'm wondering now if it's the wheels themselves? they are not "hubcentric", but that added spacer ring shouldn't have an impact on this issue. the lugs do seem to have some discoloration ( water rust?? ) but i dry the wheels as best i can if/when i ever wash the car lol
torquing to 90 - 96 ft lbs. any info, comments/advice or whatever is greatly appreciated. scary proposition this....
My WAG is the lug bolts are crap. The metal is weak or the ball doesn't fit properly with the socket in the wheel.
06-20-2014, 03:09 PM
#23
since my latest lug snapping event is with newer lugs, albeit also of a questionable make and quality, i have needed to explore other options. not being a track guy or even gearhead per se, i have only just found about about the "stud conversion" route. i suspect those will better suit my needs for the same reasons they are favored by folks that track, as my backyard is a "track' of sorts.
i guess i never got decent replacement lugs. regardless of tire shop(s) i use and need to be more proactive and aware of even these seemingly insignificant components. as they've become very important now! as it is, i've never snapped a lug before. let alone, many at once.
06-20-2014, 03:51 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
I mean t to say seized as in piston seized. Sorry type to fast. I guess a better explanation is galvanic corrosion, of two dissimilar metals, causing them to adhere to each other.
06-20-2014, 04:42 PM
#25
got it. thx. it's definitely cheap metal/mfg is one reason i bet.. i never thought about case hardened lugs or whatevers the strongest!? guess i'm just surprised many people haven't snapped them before! i'm not doing anything special to em lol
06-20-2014, 06:01 PM
#26
Race Director
there is no dealing directly with forgestar as one might imagine. they are the US entity of a mfg based in southeast asia. their sup[plied bolts which are an "option" for 60 bucks look great but were quick to snap, when i first got the wheels.
since my latest lug snapping event is with newer lugs, albeit also of a questionable make and quality, i have needed to explore other options. not being a track guy or even gearhead per se, i have only just found about about the "stud conversion" route. i suspect those will better suit my needs for the same reasons they are favored by folks that track, as my backyard is a "track' of sorts.
i guess i never got decent replacement lugs. regardless of tire shop(s) i use and need to be more proactive and aware of even these seemingly insignificant components. as they've become very important now! as it is, i've never snapped a lug before. let alone, many at once.
since my latest lug snapping event is with newer lugs, albeit also of a questionable make and quality, i have needed to explore other options. not being a track guy or even gearhead per se, i have only just found about about the "stud conversion" route. i suspect those will better suit my needs for the same reasons they are favored by folks that track, as my backyard is a "track' of sorts.
i guess i never got decent replacement lugs. regardless of tire shop(s) i use and need to be more proactive and aware of even these seemingly insignificant components. as they've become very important now! as it is, i've never snapped a lug before. let alone, many at once.
This opens up a can of worms. Are the lug bolts snapping because they are crap or because the wheels are crap and flexing too much and fatiguing the lug bolts?
I guess before you trash can the wheels trying a good set of wheel studs/nuts is the way to go.
I'm not sure how well it would work, but you might consider using some kind of dye/bluing to test the contact made by the new stud nuts and their spherical washers with the mating cavity in the wheels.
(In the machine shop we used Permatex Prussian Blue.)
You might end up seeing from the bluing deposited on the spherical cavities in the wheels the spherical washers are not making good contact, which suggests part of the problem is because of this.
06-20-2014, 06:49 PM
#27
thx for your input, nonetheless. it is odd, all the way around.
06-21-2014, 01:47 PM
#28
Race Director
gee, i dunno macster! what you suggest is so beyond the scope of what i can or will do, i can't speak to it. but i just spoke with a very knowledgeable guy at gmpperformance. he also says there should be no reason i am snapping them. he is helping to source me some tuv certified deutsche lugs in 17mm. should those not resolve my issue, it will be a stud conversion and/or new wheels.
thx for your input, nonetheless. it is odd, all the way around.
thx for your input, nonetheless. it is odd, all the way around.
The hope is the lug bolts are just not up to the task and better lug bolts or perhaps a wheel stud conversion will hold up better.
But as I touched upon there can be a problem with the fit of the spherical washer of the lug bolt with the mating cavity in the wheel.
The contact between the washer and the wheel wants to be sufficient so there can be no movement, no flexing. If there is then this can fatigue the lug bolt and it will snap.
if you are not capable of the bluing test that's fine. Not everyone is. (As a machinist using bluing to determine mating part fits was part of my job requirement.)
See if the TUV certified lugs help, stop the snapping lug bolt problem.
06-21-2014, 06:26 PM
#29
i just heard back from apex and no stud conversion 19mm to 17mm can happen from them. i have now learned why not to buy a wheel that isn't hubcentric for the car. the 19's forgestar makes are hubcentric ( genius ) while the best sized 18" wheel for the car, aren't ( idiocy ).
