ThreeSixNine

I created an account on these forums because I want to share my story, or should I say saga with our 2008 Porsche 997.1 Targa 4 (M96 - 3.6L), that we have owned from new, since 2008, for use in the beautiful Swiss Mountains.



The car was mainly used as a winter run-around for shopping and ski duties during the winter ski season, and sometimes for short road trips during the months of August. This was mainly under 15km trips in the mountains, often in the cold and snow, as well as sometimes going down to Geneva or Italy.

Car is therefore: Cold Climate, daily driven when in the country (few months of the year), never tracked, rarely driven hard, average of 2,800km/year of use.

The car gave us very little problems for the past 10 years until just a few weeks ago, when an oil leak occurred while a family member was driving the car. A porous joint was changed and oil was added back in. Afterwards we noticed that there would always be a lot of oil on the rear bumper, exhaust, right side of the engine, and we would constantly be refilling the missing oil. Shortly after the engine started making a noise and the clutch began to slip. It was taken to the Porsche centre in Geneva which ran the following diagnostic for $1000.

Cylinder 6 scored
Ignition coils cracked
Oil leak crankshaft
Clutch heavy wear/to replace
Leak from steering rack/power steering, power steering pipes to replace
Rust on on engine cooling hoses/pipes
Rust on brake hoses, discs & pads
Rust on exhaust
Front Dampers to replace

And here are the photos from the diagnostic;

















Porsche would not take any blame for these issues at such a low mileage and offered to replace the short block for $30,000. The car’s warranty expired 2 years after purchase in 2010.

One thing to note is that the usage in the snow with salt on the roads seems to have heavily corroded the engine parts, brakes and exhaust. Even though we would regularly clean under the car after heavy snow use it seems as though this was not enough.

I was not prepared to spend that much for OEM replacement which had no guarantee of fixing the inherent problems that this engine has (such as IMS failures as well) so have been looking at other options. Being based in Switzerland, America seemed a bit too far for this resolve also it would involve sending the block there and back but then having no single party liable for the work performed. This can get messy in my experience. So that was out.

I was left with 2 options;

Either find someone local in Switzerland, or go elsewhere in Europe and ship the car there. There was also a language issue, having everything done by a shop who doesn’t speak your language isn’t the best. Luckily in Switzerland I seemed to have found a good engine builder who did lots of Porsche Cup cars, is constantly doing dyno runs and had dealt with this kind of issue before. He even had an M97 block ready to swap in.

I was thinking at this point I might as well upgrade the engine to a 3.8L for little difference in total cost.

I considered Hartech in the UK as well as EPorsch in the UK but in the end the cost of having the car sent there and back balanced out the higher price of labour and parts in Switzerland. I would also be detached from the car’s progress as those workshops are in the north of England. UK cost for 3.8L conversion was quoted around £13,500 GBP ($17,500) for engine work alone on top of that there was shipping back and forth as well as brakes, clutch, dampers at other issues.

Local Swiss solution came around $19,000 for the engine work including 3.8L conversion and IMS Solution. All other work as with UK shops would be on top.

I have therefore decided to go with the local Swiss solution. I will journal the progress of the car’s rebuild on here for other people to take note.

Any suggestions or comments/criticism along the way are appreciated!



ThreeSixNine

318touring

Wow, it's incredible on how non-resistant to rust the components of the car are! I don't know whether the pictures above are actually normal in other vehicles operating in the same conditions though. But Stuttgart does get pretty cold and snowy.

Good luck with your fix and looking forward to seeing the progress along the way.

f911

Wow this is very low mileage and probably the weather and the salt didn't help.
I understand it can appear in all 997 engines (both 3.6 and 3.8, regardless of age or mileage or engine volume).
The idea of upgrading to 3.8 sounds great!
Have a lot of success in the process. Try to enjoy it and return it to Switzerland's mountains with renewed horsepower
Lots of health

linderpat

You're kidding right! Imagine what a Ford or GM car would look like after 10 years under the same driving conditions. There'd be no body left, much less an undercarriage. I've had Jeeps for years, and they corrode from underneath just by sitting there. I'd say the OP did okay under the circumstances. The bore scoring sucks, but if you always just jumped in and started driving on a cold snowy day, and did not pay attention to initial revs, then bore scoring is a known issue.

Overall, this car was used as a winter sport utility vehicle. Ten years, regardless of mileage, is a long time in those conditions for a 911. Now if this were a Cayenne or Macan I'd be pissed, as those vehicles were presumably designed for this use.

groovzilla

I would never drive my Porsche on Salt infested roads---> The outcome in your case is nasty. And in addition, I believe most of know the problems associated with cold climate's regarding bore scoring/etc.
I believe your posting of your car and it's decomposed condition was a big mistake. Whats the point? I guess you wanted to warn everyone to stay far away from your car when you sell it?

Most smart people are aware of what a winter driven drive train and suspension components would look like after years on salt laden roads and that's why we have Land Rovers, Porsche SUV's and similar vehicles for those duties.
Most Porsche owners don't subject their cars to these winter elements because of results like yours.

You got what you deserved. Maybe next time choose a vehicle made for salt roads OR do a complete wash down after use like I do with my boat being used in saltwater.

adamo

I've had three Wrangler JKUs, and each and every one had started rusting before they left the assembly line. Picked each of them up, after special ordering, brand new at the local dealership, with rust on the driveshafts.

groovzilla

^^My 2008 Land Rover LR3 has been driven in 8 Seattle winters, many ski trips to Whistler BC and all over Eastern Wa. where enormous amount of salt is used on Interstate 5 and I90.
I have "0" rust on my LR----> The underside looks like it did when I bought it.
Using a Porsche Sports Car or any Sports Car on regular basis on salty roads is like using your ***** with a Prostitute on a regular basis. It get dirty, smelly and ugly quick. And resale value plummets

adamo

I didn't buy my 911 for resale value. If I wanted better resale value, I would have kept one of my Jeeps. I bought my 911 because it's hella fun to drive, and I plan to drive it everywhere, in all conditions.

user 72902

That is such an awesome car. I really feel for you. Just from looking at those pictures it does not look like much if any mechanical work has been kept current. I bet you will have a massive amount of “while we’re in there” extras. Good luck and hope it’s as good as new when done.

zamorskii

That is a big ouch in my book. I'd never drive a 911 in the snow, but to each their own. Subscribed.

ThreeSixNine

Thanks. Looking forward to a working car again soon! To be honest I would say that for a 11 year old snow car it's not that bad, but I was just a bit shocked at the beginning.

Yes this is a known issue on M96 and M97 engines, unfortunately in my case it seems to have happened at a very low KM, which I was not expecting.

Exactly. The primary purpose of this Targa4 was a winter daily driver that would also be also fun to drive in the twisty mountain roads in Switzerland in the summer. And the car played that role very well. In terms of usage, the car was very rarely driven hard, mostly all under 5k rpm. I guess I would have expected some rust, but the full engine rebuild never crossed my mind with this usage.

The best thing about a 4 wheel drive 911 is you get to enjoy it in any weather or road conditions. If Porsche didn't feel comfortable with them being driven how I am using it, then they shouldn't advertise them driving in the snow all the time! I often used this as a ski car with a roof mounted ski rack, drives just about anywhere with the right tyres. And trust me, there are many 911's being driven in the snow in Switzerland!


Exactly. Plus with the money going into this car at the moment, doesn't look like I will be selling this car anytime soon! In fact I am upgrading it

Yep I have a feeling that is happening. will make a new post soon!

See my comments above! In Europe it's very common. What's uncommon is that I seem to be the only one with this issue around where I am, with similar usage.

qikqbn

Words of wisdom right there... That needs to be put on wall some where. Are you speaking from experience Groovzilla?

qikqbn

Sorry to hear about your beautiful Targa getting eaten alive with rust and your bore scoring. No reason to kick ya while you are down. I hope you can get this fixed for a reasonable price. With that said... This is just one more reason why purchasing ANY car from areas with harsh wet winters and salty roads is a major concern. I realize for those who already live in these climates that it is just probably another day at the office and common to find on every car, but rust is a nasty problem and salt water gets into everything. I do appreciate you sharing though, because it is just one more testimony as to why it is a good idea to put your expensive sports car away for storage in the winter months. I know it's tempting to use it year round, but if you do , then be prepared to pay the penalties. Cars that are near beach towns are also prone to salt damage and rust issues so it's just not winter cars. Although cold winter climate cars tend to have bore scoring issues more often. Bummer!

doclouie

Wow guys you are being pretty harsh. He can choose to use his car however he would like. Yea most on here would not use it like he did, but if that is what he chooses more power to him. He is just sharing his two cents, right wrong or indifferent it is his life.

OP sorry to hear about the situation you are in, but when you get it back it will be that much better. Cheers.

hexagone

That's some pretty elitist, ******* language right there and why there's a stigma around Porsche owners driving around with a pack of Pampers diapers ready to wipe down every droplet that touch their car.

You do realize that in Europe many 911 owners drive their cars year round right? Park them in the city and let them be rained and snowed on.

It's how I drive my car, because it's a car first and foremost that they made many thousands of. We drive mass produced sports cars that happen to occasionally have some kitchy options like contrasting stitching that people wet themselves over.

The rusted components have no bearing on the bore scoring - close to 20 years of use regardless of mileage will likely look like that.

The true issue here is that any modern car for that matter would suffer catastrophic engine failure (or show the symptoms of) in the first 150k miles, regardless of weather.

We're not driving hand made fragile snowflakes here that would ever justify the kind of failures we are and have been witnessing. If Toyota or Chevy were able to make 300+hp cars capable of sustaining a range of output for decades, why can't Porsche?